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  1. #1
    Community Member msdesign's Avatar
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    Default Inaccessible places

    Ok, so everybody knows and have been in situations like fighting a kobold party in waterworks, when the irritating shaman jumps back to a higher ledge of a wall...

    And then, no melee can reach it. If the party doesn't have a ranged character (like a caster or someone with a bow), there is no chance people have to kill that shaman.

    This happens pretty much everywere, not only in the waterworks

    I would ask to devs to correct this, by choosing one of two options:

    1. Allow players to jump where monsters jump too. This is logical, isn't it?

    OR

    2. Don't allow monsters to jump to inaccessible places. If a player can't go to a place, so can't a monster. Also logical, isn't it?

    Thank you for reading.

    btw, I haven't found any thread on this.
    [Ghallanda]
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  2. #2
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    The annoying kobolds are working as intended. Bring something to do damage from a distance.
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  3. #3
    Community Member msdesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    The annoying kobolds are working as intended. Bring something to do damage from a distance.
    Problem is precisely that. I think it would be much more pleasant to allow players to jump and stay up there fighting where kobolds (and other mobs) get to. It makes no sense in having a creature hovering and hanging in the wall where a player don't have a "grip" to hold on to.
    [Ghallanda]
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  4. #4
    Community Member katana_one's Avatar
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    Is it annoying? Yes.

    Is it working as intended? Depends on who you ask.

    Is it fair? Meh.

    Of all the bugs in DDO, this one is so minor that it barely requires addressing at all, in my opinion at least.

    Use a ranged weapon - there's no reason your melee character can't carry a bow or throwing weapon for just such an occasion.

    Jump and attack - takes only slightly longer to kill than it would if the mob was standing on the ground.

    Run around the corner - mob jumps down from the wall to re-establish line of sight. Kill mob.
    You are responsible for your own DDO experience.

  5. #5
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    When it happens my melee uses a bow!

    Some creatures in some places are able to do it!

    /not signed

  6. #6
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    /not signed

    mobs don't jump, only backstab

    you are REALLY lucky when the mob doesn't cross the wall, and luckier if you aren't in a quest that recquires to kill all mobs in certain place and they are archers(archers don't like melee, dunno why) as tomb of unhallowed

    the only way to avoid this would be doing jump useless in quests : we can't jump, neither mobs

    since we can reach certain places to pown mobs from distance(and it's nice when you have killed the casters/archers) mobs should be able to

    you are doing it wrong if you pretend to melee everything in ddo, there are some quests(like coalescence chamber) where you will probably die before reaching the mobs

    i'm not talking about speccing your barb (as example) to be a bow machine, but get a returning throwing weapon or a bow (and remember to take a quiver + arrows lol) you will need it, in fact in some quests you can't advance w/o a ranged weapon (as example, bargain of blood)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  7. #7
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    A couple of things worth noting.

    First, you are not obligated to kill every monster you encounter. Really, you are allowed to just go on with your quest and ignore them.

    Second, if you move on those annoying jumping monsters will come down from their perch to follow you -- making them vulnerable to attack.

    Third, if players found a perch where they could stand and fight without being in any danger it would be an exploit, people would be at risk of being banned, and the developers would eventually eliminate the perch so that it couldn't be used.

    But, rest assured, this is all WAI.

    We have Turbine's word on it. And you can totally trust Turbine. No, really....

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    A couple of things worth noting.

    First, you are not obligated to kill every monster you encounter. Really, you are allowed to just go on with your quest and ignore them.

    Second, if you move on those annoying jumping monsters will come down from their perch to follow you -- making them vulnerable to attack.

    Third, if players found a perch where they could stand and fight without being in any danger it would be an exploit, people would be at risk of being banned, and the developers would eventually eliminate the perch so that it couldn't be used.

    But, rest assured, this is all WAI.

    We have Turbine's word on it. And you can totally trust Turbine. No, really....
    Agreed. DDO is not an eternal slay-o-thon. And if you want to play that way, that's fine, but you can't gripe when the game tosses you a surprise. That's WHY you play, unless you like predictability.

    There are some quests that require you to remove all resistance before a door opens to allow you to continue on. An early-level example that's a pain for melees who don't prepare is "Rest for the Restless." There are skeletal archers on a ledge high above that you must kill to open a gate forward. Since skeletons are resistant to puncturing weapons like throwing weapons of various types, you'd better bring in someone with ranged ability or a good/undead bane throwing weapon.
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  9. #9
    Community Member msdesign's Avatar
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    Well, thank you all for the replies, altough I do notice a sad backstab and overal feeling of "squelch him now, his opinion worth nothing".

    Thing is, I have designed some scenarios for games in the past, and as a designer (truly, I have a graduate in Design in RL), I feel this small and techincal detail in this game, is a very sad thing. And specially if it is WAI. I would never create a scenario where a monster is allowed to go in but not a player. This is a techinal fault.

    Yes, yes, any player can have a bow or whatever to use in these ocasions, you don't need to tell me that, I have 2 TR toons and a bunch of other first lifers, all different classes. And yes, I do know I can step back and the monster will come after me. But then again, I come closer and monster steps back again, and start over if I don't manage to kill it quick.

    But everybody who replied here told me the same type of workaround: to step back, carry a bow, etc. etc.

    I would suggest devs to make a minor change in the areas where players and monsters can go to. Just that. I am aware of the large amount of work there is to be done, and this is just a tiny detail not worth of attention.

    But this small detail cuts down in the overall game immersion. And that, you all fail to understand
    [Ghallanda]
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  10. #10
    Community Member katana_one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    ... I do notice a sad backstab and overal feeling of "squelch him now, his opinion worth nothing".

    ...

    But this small detail cuts down in the overall game immersion. And that, you all fail to understand
    Incorrect assumption. I do understand, I simply disagree with you on how important this particular issue is. As far as immersion-breaking bugs go, this one is probably on the bottom of my list.
    You are responsible for your own DDO experience.

  11. #11
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    Good point, but bad example by the OP. Who cares if the kobolds in WW jump up a wall, range them or zerg past. But when the kobold in ETK Elite jumps up on the lava waterfall despite the normal tactic of surround and pound, a ranged weapon save from an AA isnt gonna cut it. Then here comes the spell swarms. Wipe.

    Although here i think its more a product of the environment.

  12. #12

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    And then, no melee can reach it. If the party doesn't have a ranged character (like a caster or someone with a bow), there is no chance people have to kill that shaman.
    Everyone needs a ranged weapon. Even Wizards/Sorcerers. Spells can't trip remote levers.
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  13. #13
    2016 DDO Players Council kinggartk's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    Ok, so everybody knows and have been in situations like fighting a kobold party in waterworks, when the irritating shaman jumps back to a higher ledge of a wall...

    And then, no melee can reach it. If the party doesn't have a ranged character (like a caster or someone with a bow), there is no chance people have to kill that shaman.

    This happens pretty much everywere, not only in the waterworks

    I would ask to devs to correct this, by choosing one of two options:

    1. Allow players to jump where monsters jump too. This is logical, isn't it?

    OR

    2. Don't allow monsters to jump to inaccessible places. If a player can't go to a place, so can't a monster. Also logical, isn't it?

    Thank you for reading.

    btw, I haven't found any thread on this.
    Well, think this out logically.

    Us adventurers are typically carrying around several thousand pounds of gear and plat etc, not to mention most of us are at least twice the size of the Kobolds (Even halfings are bigger than kobolds).

    We are walking around in their domain..they know the littles niches and ledges, we dont.

    Kobolds are running around in starter rags usually carrying a stick, so yea...they can jump higher and get around in places that us lumbering adventurers can't. It really does make sense to me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    But everybody who replied here told me the same type of workaround: to step back, carry a bow, etc. etc.

    I would suggest devs to make a minor change in the areas where players and monsters can go to. Just that. I am aware of the large amount of work there is to be done, and this is just a tiny detail not worth of attention.

    But this small detail cuts down in the overall game immersion. And that, you all fail to understand
    No one has told you workarounds, they have told you tactics to use against an enemy. You say we fail to understand, yet you are guilty of the same. Many of us dont' see it as a design flaw, but a clever tactic employed by a mob. He can cling to the wall due to the benefit of claws. I have seen many a clawed critter scale and cling to a wet, crumbling wall in ways I could never dream of. And environments don't conveniently have a handhold for everyone who happens to be there.

    Further, it's a good early warning to players that some sort of ranged ability and thinking around problems is a good idea. There are other quests that cannot be completed without it, although some give you a convenience bow (Which I find cheesy, why on EARTH would there be a bridge that requires range to get to a switch, but the monsters leave a bow and arrows in a chest on the other side next to it???).

    It is not bad design to force a player to think thorugh a problem. THe behavior is probably one of hte most realistic behaviors mobs exhibit, whether it was intentional or not. A clawed kobold who knows he can range a group leaps up a slimy, wet wall and uses his claws to cling to it. The adventureres then either have to stand there in range of his spells and range him, or consider going around the corner out of the way and forcing him to come to them. This is a classic set up for pen and paper as well. Dm's don't give every player at the table a convenient perch to get on and roll dice mindlessly, they expect those players to think through the situation.
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  15. #15
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    Ok, so everybody knows and have been in situations like fighting a kobold party in waterworks, when the irritating shaman jumps back to a higher ledge of a wall...

    And then, no melee can reach it. If the party doesn't have a ranged character (like a caster or someone with a bow), there is no chance people have to kill that shaman.
    That's why all my characters have at least a thrower and/or a ranged weapon.

    Yes it's mostly useless to carry around that loght crossbow on my halfling wizard... the important bit is mostly...
    Between the ledge climbing kobolds, the various arrow/bolt/thrower triggered levers/valves/bridges/... I find it useful.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Mob jumps up on a wall, I consider it neutralised, since it most likely will not prevent me from opening the next door. Just move on, you don't have to kill every last mob.

  17. #17
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    If you dont have ranged (and you should), just break line of sight and they will come to you. best workaround I got. keep gaming
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    (. . .)Thing is, I have designed some scenarios for games in the past, and as a designer (truly, I have a graduate in Design in RL), I feel this small and techincal detail in this game, is a very sad thing. And specially if it is WAI. I would never create a scenario where a monster is allowed to go in but not a player. This is a techinal fault.

    Yes, yes, any player can have a bow or whatever to use in these ocasions, you don't need to tell me that, I have 2 TR toons and a bunch of other first lifers, all different classes. And yes, I do know I can step back and the monster will come after me. But then again, I come closer and monster steps back again, and start over if I don't manage to kill it quick.

    But everybody who replied here told me the same type of workaround: to step back, carry a bow, etc. etc.

    I would suggest devs to make a minor change in the areas where players and monsters can go to. Just that. I am aware of the large amount of work there is to be done, and this is just a tiny detail not worth of attention.

    But this small detail cuts down in the overall game immersion. And that, you all fail to understand
    The conditions of a game are meant to challenge you. We, as players, can only obligate the game designers to provide at least one logical way (even if seemingly suicidal) to complete a task in a quest. But there's nothing in the game terms to say that anything in the game will be fair to you.

    The monsters are DESIGNED to defeat you, and since they haven't the advantage of intellect as we do (well, most of us, anyway) the artificial intelligence must be allowed to do a little of the impossible to keep from making things too easy on us. The undefeatable Whirling Blades in the Shroud is a good example. After a past update, some players complained that these deadly things were too deadly. The devs obliged by turning down their damage on one difficulty but leaving them insanely nasty for higher difficulties. Most players appreciated that because it kept them on their toes while not making the raid too easy. They could always choose a lower difficulty if they need to do so.

    If you're feeling stymied by how this game mechanic behaves, I understand--but finding a solution to it can't be done by the "Kirk vs. the computer simulator" approach by reprogramming the computer itself. The problem, with due respect to you, is between the keyboard and chair. Just prep and think things through before you enter.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Todkaninchen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    That's why all my characters have at least a thrower and/or a ranged weapon.

    Yes it's mostly useless to carry around that loght crossbow on my halfling wizard... the important bit is mostly...
    Between the ledge climbing kobolds, the various arrow/bolt/thrower triggered levers/valves/bridges/... I find it useful.
    OR not.

    I think my halfling wizard has a returning throwing hammer...

    ...of improved cursespewing and shattermantle.

    Won't kill anything, but jacking up the enemies Spell resistance is nice and you can break barrels with it.

  20. #20
    Community Member Todkaninchen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    Ok, so everybody knows and have been in situations like fighting a kobold party in waterworks, when the irritating shaman jumps back to a higher ledge of a wall...

    And then, no melee can reach it. If the party doesn't have a ranged character (like a caster or someone with a bow), there is no chance people have to kill that shaman.

    This happens pretty much everywere, not only in the waterworks

    I would ask to devs to correct this, by choosing one of two options:

    1. Allow players to jump where monsters jump too. This is logical, isn't it?

    OR

    2. Don't allow monsters to jump to inaccessible places. If a player can't go to a place, so can't a monster. Also logical, isn't it?

    Thank you for reading.

    btw, I haven't found any thread on this.
    DDO is a team sport that's soloable in many places if you build right. Not including a ranged capability of some sort is a failure of either build or tactics. Being sub-optimal for some enemies/quests/etc. is part of the game.

    So, being pure melee against an enemy that can move where you can't... like the freaking abishai in Chronoscope that fly overhead is suboptimal but you bring someone who is better equipped to handle it and you're good. Likewise, I could complain about having to fight undead on most rogues because I can't add sneak attack damage to anything and most of my default weapons are piercers. I don't because I tend to either bring people who can handle it well with me (paladins, some clerics, even some barbarians or other casters) and I get equipment that does work on undead like Midnight Greetings (slashing for zombies), Chieftan's Spear (bludgeon for skeletons), Sun Blades (added light damage vs. undead and slashing) for my assassin. For my rogue mechs, Silver Slingers, something with greater undead bane and/or disruption on it, or whatever combo of flaming and/or acid plus holy/righteousness I can put together.

    So, unless you're a halfling rogue or a player character kobold (if ever) that could probably fit where the kobold goes from being the same side with a hellacious jump, you probably SHOULDN'T be able to jump where they do.

    (Although, in some of the noob quests, if you go back through them WITH a hellacious jump skill, you can actually get onto some of those little ledges or spaces you thought you couldn't.)

    http://coh.trigones.com/user_images/1515434795.jpg

    This one:

    http://coh.trigones.com/user_images/900235946.jpg

    No way I could get to because I can't spawn out of the ceiling like he did.
    Last edited by Todkaninchen; 03-11-2013 at 06:09 PM.

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