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  1. #1
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    Default Paldin 15/Rogue 3/Fighter 2

    TL;DR-
    For a specialist duo group, hate grabber, 2h falchion+S&B (scimitar) as needed, Mark of finding not optional. Prefer no other classes. Must be able to handle the traps and survive, but only to level 20 content, not epic. Will prolly reincarnate or w/e at 20, if needed.



    This is a specialist build I'm trying on my third character. I've played around with the character planner for umpteen hours and this is the best I could come up with.

    The premise behind this char is it duos with a Drow pure Sorcerer. This chars job is to handle the 'will whomp us in 1 hit elite traps' and keeping the sorc alive to slaughter the mobs. This isnt a min/max build in any form.

    I've already rolled this char (level 3 atm), and kinda kicked myself takin combat expertise at 1 and power attack at 3, shoulda been reversed imo. My rogue levels at 10/20 are for capping off the skills that are starting to get behind. It does pretty good, capped DD/search/UMD, 1 from cap intim. Balance and spot are too low in my opinion, but I couldnt find a way to get more out of it, really. Open locks does not matter because of sorc knock.

    I also goofed (this was a former dwarf pure paladin) and forgot the faith enhancements are only for DoS III.. but tbh they aren't too expensive, and having a 'save the sorc' button can be handy to clear the debuffs.

    Ahh and the ever controversial 'Mark of finding'. Yeah i know, not the most popular choice, ESPECIALLY on a feat cramped pally.. but I want to play with it. See if its worth it, this is my first hum char (only other char besides the dwarf was a drow 12/4/4 fighter/rogue/pally- who was.. interesting, found out a LOT about light armor and dodge) so i wanted to fiddle. May be worthless but ***. Seems fun and I THINK, with adding the 2 fighter levels in, enough feats to make it work, albeit with lower dps output and missing a few funs, like greater cleave, dodge, mobility, et al.

    I'd really love to work more dodge into this build, it'll be primarily a light armor tank, I've found the diminishing returns on ac to be... weird. I dont have any hard data on it (btw are there log files the game makes of the combat chat window that can be parsed?), but my feeling is something around the 60% 'chance of defense at level' seems to be a good target to shoot for, then stack on concealment/dodge/incorp. I know this is a really REALLY controversial subject, and I'm not looking for some kinda rant-fest here.. but some helpful advice would be nice, I actually am fairly new to the game. The 'defense at level' is the only number i have to work with, but on my drow with decent dodge that formula seemed to work great.

    Anyway, this will be mainly a falchion 2hander/S&B (scimitar) when needed style. I have enhancement points left over at 20, and I'm thinkin Hamp, Haste boost, a few other things i might take... I tend to be a 'reset every 3 days' type of enhancement user anyways so they are never set in stone.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
    (2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 290
    Spell Points: 185 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 23
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 14
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             17                    24
    Dexterity            13                    17
    Constitution         12                    14
    Intelligence         14                    16
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             14                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               5                     7
    Bluff                 2                     4
    Concentration         3                     7
    Diplomacy             2                     4
    Disable Device        6                    27
    Haggle                2                     4
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  1                     3
    Intimidate            6                    26
    Jump                  7                    17
    Listen                3                     4
    Move Silently         5                     7
    Open Lock             5                     7
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     3
    Search                6                    31
    Spot                  3                     5
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                n/a                   n/a
    Use Magic Device      6                    27
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Combat Expertise
    Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Finding
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
    Enhancement: Tharashk Search I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Finding
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Tharashk Search II
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Finding
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Tharashk Search III
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Tharashk Search IV
    Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    I think you would be better off with heavy armor as a general rule. Your saves will be very strong anyway, you have resists on tap, there are almost no traps you have to stand around in to disarm (requiring non-interruption via Evasion), as a DoS you'll have the HP to make it through only taking half damage. On the off chance you do need Evasion for whatever trap, you can always take your armor off.

    I'm not totally clear on your grouping plan: it doesn't seem like you're using hirelings, and it doesn't seem like your sorcerer will be UMDing Heal scrolls, and if both of those are the case you need to soup up your Cure line via a metamagic (I prefer Maximize) and ideally a bit of Devotion enhancement. You cannot rely on defense alone, especially if you expect to be holding aggro. You need some way to replenish HP, and LoH won't cut it for long. As a tank you also cannot rely on your own Heal scrolls, especially with a 7 Concentration. On that note I would also swap all your UMD for Concentration, because Devotion 2 unlocks Redemption (a Raise Dead ability) for you, and if you have heals and raise what do you really care about UMD?

    On the enhancements note I would also drop some stats (Dex and Cha) for Improved Recovery. Bulwark 4 is also a low return investment. Your #1 DPS move is Divine Sacrifice, drop Divine Might 1 and 2 for Extra Smite 2 and DS 1. It's more fun and more DPS, you won't regret it.

    Final minor point: 17 Str over 16 Str costs you 3 build points for 1/2 to-hit and 3/4 damage, which could instead give you 14 Dex and 14 Con for 1 Reflex and 10 (*DoS) HP, which seem more in tune with your goals.
    Quote Originally Posted by macore View Post
    (btw are there log files the game makes of the combat chat window that can be parsed?)
    If only...

  3. #3
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    Ah, thank you very much, interesting read.. a couple questions, tho.. Oh, and i guess i should have specified in the OP, when i said i'm new, i know this is a TR character but my character had a pfile issue and the gms said TR was the only way to fix it, so took my level 9 and well.. i was tr'd a bit before i was ready. I've played the game less then a month :/

    Still i appreciate it VERY MUCH that all my work, my inventory, and whatnot wasnt destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I think you would be better off with heavy armor as a general rule. Your saves will be very strong anyway, you have resists on tap, there are almost no traps you have to stand around in to disarm (requiring non-interruption via Evasion), as a DoS you'll have the HP to make it through only taking half damage. On the off chance you do need Evasion for whatever trap, you can always take your armor off.
    Well, yea my first pally was pure full plate/battle plate armor, low dex, all the standard. Really nothing ever killed him, but spells. After i hit 60ac at level 7 i think, i noticed- eyeballing, mind, no hard data- mobs really didnt hurt me anymore then when i was at 40. Maybe it's overkill for the level, either way, i couldnt find a difference, and when i did my drow, i hit the same ac at level 8 in chainmail, a nice 45 base with no buffs, yet she also has dodge+8%, tons of reflex and evasion, made her a TON tougher when it came to spells. I was wondering if that scaled to higher levels... or it was harder and harder to hit the sweet spot, harder to hit then i assume?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I'm not totally clear on your grouping plan: it doesn't seem like you're using hirelings, and it doesn't seem like your sorcerer will be UMDing Heal scrolls, and if both of those are the case you need to soup up your Cure line via a metamagic (I prefer Maximize) and ideally a bit of Devotion enhancement. You cannot rely on defense alone, especially if you expect to be holding aggro. You need some way to replenish HP, and LoH won't cut it for long. As a tank you also cannot rely on your own Heal scrolls, especially with a 7 Concentration. On that note I would also swap all your UMD for Concentration, because Devotion 2 unlocks Redemption (a Raise Dead ability) for you, and if you have heals and raise what do you really care about UMD?

    On the enhancements note I would also drop some stats (Dex and Cha) for Improved Recovery. Bulwark 4 is also a low return investment. Your #1 DPS move is Divine Sacrifice, drop Divine Might 1 and 2 for Extra Smite 2 and DS 1. It's more fun and more DPS, you won't regret it.
    Oh sorry for not being clear enough, no, after a few levels hirelingless, i keep an inventory stocked with clerics. Cheaper then potions at low levels, but they arent always bright, not having, ya know, a spell less then cure crit means i have to babysit em so they cast it... or i lay on hands when they're slow, thats the reason behind those, emergency heals.

    Those enhancements are exactly what i'm looking for. I cant believe i missed that.. but yea definately taking your enhancement ideas.

    Metamagic is one of the painful things i gave up for the build, i wanted maximize and extend. I took an hour or so at level 20 to check out the paladin spells, and I really wanted the metamagics, but i couldnt find a way to slip them in without weakening too many other things... PRR is nice and the fighter levels were basically just for improved/shield mastery.

    I see so many things with UMD around, I wasnt sure how important it was. Admittedly, the sor will be able to handle all of it, much better then i with the higher cha modifier.. I just wanted to be able to do some myself, not to mention all the gear i've seen with UMD on it. Not as important as i assumed, then?

    I didnt realize that concentration worked for scrolls... on my first play through i kept concentration capped thinking 'it's a class skill for some reason' but never could figure it out... does concentration effect wands and potions too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Final minor point: 17 Str over 16 Str costs you 3 build points for 1/2 to-hit and 3/4 damage, which could instead give you 14 Dex and 14 Con for 1 Reflex and 10 (*DoS) HP, which seem more in tune with your goals.
    Yeah, i pondered that myself.. unfortunately it is allready rolled, and level 3 so not much i can do on that one. The lower hps i've never found, so far, to be an issue... if something kills me it's usually
    a> my own fault for not watching myself more,
    b> a trap on elite, which is mainly what we duo, maaaan those hurt, i'd have to have something like 10 more con to survive a lot of those, and yea, i use protection/resist energy too :/, or
    c> going OOOOOooooo a level 10 giant area.. hmm i'm level 8, lets try elite! OH LOOK! a cr 18 giant, lets kill it! well ok we did actually kill it but it took a death each :P

    Thanks for the information, very informative... food for thought.

  4. #4
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macore View Post
    Well, yea my first pally was pure full plate/battle plate armor, low dex, all the standard. Really nothing ever killed him, but spells. After i hit 60ac at level 7 i think, i noticed- eyeballing, mind, no hard data- mobs really didnt hurt me anymore then when i was at 40. Maybe it's overkill for the level, either way, i couldnt find a difference, and when i did my drow, i hit the same ac at level 8 in chainmail, a nice 45 base with no buffs, yet she also has dodge+8%, tons of reflex and evasion, made her a TON tougher when it came to spells. I was wondering if that scaled to higher levels... or it was harder and harder to hit the sweet spot, harder to hit then i assume?
    There are two big changes in higher levels. First: there's no practical way to get by on AC checks alone, you will get hit. This is where the PRR of heavy armor pays major dividends. Second: you will have a huge number of gear and buffs available to you that as a paladin offers you a very strong Reflex save even without an Evasion splash. You don't get really any similar PRR buffs until epic levels, and even then there's a lot more opportunity cost involved than slotting +6 Dex, +6 Cha, +5 Resistance (aka +11 Reflex save). While your Dex bonus to AC is capped by heavy armor, you have no such cap on your Dex contribution to Reflex save.
    I see so many things with UMD around, I wasnt sure how important it was. Admittedly, the sor will be able to handle all of it, much better then i with the higher cha modifier.. I just wanted to be able to do some myself, not to mention all the gear i've seen with UMD on it. Not as important as i assumed, then?
    The thing that makes UMD amazing is self-healing, but that's really only for builds that can't self-heal already. The other stuff (buffs, some gear) is nice, but to me not critical. On a paladin trapper, I would not pick it up.
    I didnt realize that concentration worked for scrolls... on my first play through i kept concentration capped thinking 'it's a class skill for some reason' but never could figure it out... does concentration effect wands and potions too?
    Definitely no Conc check on potions, I'm 99% sure not wands either. However, wands for whatever reason hit their ceiling very early: you can buy scrolls of Heal, but the best wands you can buy are CSW; you can buy scrolls of GH, but I don't know if you can even buy a wand of regular H.

    Regarding hirelings, they do get themselves killed pretty easily but the beauty is that if you have a raise ability (which as a paladin and UMDing sorc you obviously will), they come back to life with their full suite of pseudo-resists and therefore don't suffer from the typical PC "ok just got back to life, time to hide in a corner for 5 minutes and rebuff" sickness.
    Thanks for the information, very informative... food for thought.
    Welcome!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    There are two big changes in higher levels. First: there's no practical way to get by on AC checks alone, you will get hit. This is where the PRR of heavy armor pays major dividends. Second: you will have a huge number of gear and buffs available to you that as a paladin offers you a very strong Reflex save even without an Evasion splash. You don't get really any similar PRR buffs until epic levels, and even then there's a lot more opportunity cost involved than slotting +6 Dex, +6 Cha, +5 Resistance (aka +11 Reflex save). While your Dex bonus to AC is capped by heavy armor, you have no such cap on your Dex contribution to Reflex save.The thing that makes UMD amazing is self-healing, but that's really only for builds that can't self-heal already. The other stuff (buffs, some gear) is nice, but to me not critical. On a paladin trapper, I would not pick it up.Definitely no Conc check on potions, I'm 99% sure not wands either. However, wands for whatever reason hit their ceiling very early: you can buy scrolls of Heal, but the best wands you can buy are CSW; you can buy scrolls of GH, but I don't know if you can even buy a wand of regular H.

    Regarding hirelings, they do get themselves killed pretty easily but the beauty is that if you have a raise ability (which as a paladin and UMDing sorc you obviously will), they come back to life with their full suite of pseudo-resists and therefore don't suffer from the typical PC "ok just got back to life, time to hide in a corner for 5 minutes and rebuff" sickness.Welcome!
    Just a note - the guild wand vendor in House K sells cure critical wands if your guild is high enough level, and as a paladin you would need UMD to use them if desired. There is no concentration check on wands.
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  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Given your stated (sub-optimal) goals, it looks okay, I guess. Base CON 12 makes me cringe a bit; and I don't like backloading Toughness so far. I would drop CE to rearrange your feats a bit; I wouldn't expect your AC to matter, frankly.

    Just messing with the builder:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 330
    Spell Points: 185 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 23
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 13
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    25
    Dexterity            12                    14
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         12                    14
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             15                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Finding
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Finding
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Finding
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
    Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II
    Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
    Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

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