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  1. #1
    SithDDO Symerith's Avatar
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    Default I want your thoughts

    Alright, so I have a 4th life toon with melee past lives/gear that I've been thinking of TRing lately, but really didn't know what to do with it.

    Idea 1
    Pretty basic Paladin TWF Dual wielding DR breaking Deathnips w/ KotC. Fury of the Wild. High DPS and tactics. Great self sufficiency.


    Idea 2
    Not sure this would work, but sounds pretty fun to me.
    Here's the concept:
    + 18 paladin 2 monk
    + Evasion
    + High saves (Low 60's)
    + Using sireth, high doublestrike w/ Fury + items
    + high PRR: 10 base+3lesser stance+10DosI+15DosII+20DosII+20DosStance+14Slotte d+15Gmof Twist+15Planar+6Fury+15planar = 128 which is pretty sweet
    + I'm guessing potential for decent AC
    + High healing amp w/ cocoon twisted+lay on hands+quickened self heals
    + synergy between smites and adrenaline


    Let me know what you guys think, especially about the second build.

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    Idea 2
    DosIII
    synergy between smites and adrenaline
    Don't defender stances block adrenaline? I thought it was considered a rage type effect.
    Adrenaline + smite sounds very satisfying, though... I may have to try that one of these lives.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    In general critical profile (which is defined as threat * [multiplier -1]) is the most relevant quantity for weapons. However, paladins have an idiosyncratic ability in Divine Sacrifice which is the only extant DDO ability that gives +1 multiplier to all critical range. Exalted Smite does the same thing, but to a lesser extent due to the relative frequencies of Smites and Sacrifices. This pushes paladins specifically away from high-multiplier low-range weapons like heavy picks in general. Deathnips are a little better off due to their double range, but it's still probably not something you want to hang your hat on as a paladin.

    Evasion is tricky, especially as a DoS. Because DoS is a percentage increase to AC, you get way more out of it with heavy armors and their jumbo AC values. As a paladin you already have wonderful saves, so Evasion is not as big a deal (especially when some of the most crippling Reflex saves are not damage but knockdown, which Evasion gives you 0 help with). With 2 epic feats (so far) you have less incentive to take feat splashes. All in all I can see it both ways, but I personally lean towards the pure path.

  4. #4
    Community Member Maxallu's Avatar
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    Here's the concept:
    + 18 paladin 2 monk
    + Evasion
    + High saves (Low 60's)
    + Using sireth, high doublestrike w/ Fury + items
    + high PRR: 10 base+3lesser stance+10DosI+15DosII+20DosII+20DosStance+14Slotte d+15Gmof Twist+15Planar+6Fury+15planar = 128 which is pretty sweet
    + I'm guessing potential for decent AC
    + High healing amp w/ cocoon twisted+lay on hands+quickened self heals
    + synergy between smites and adrenaline


    Let me know what you guys think, especially about the second build.
    Assuming you don't already have a Juggernaut...

    47% damage reduction (128 PRR) is amazing. Couple that with Rejuvenation Cocoon, reasonable AC and good healing amp it's very self-sustaining (80 Devotion enhancements + 80 Potency from Halcyon Boots + 75 Empower Heal Spell feat = 235 Devotion!)

    Unfortunately Fury of the Wild and Defender stance don't mix. Legendary Dreadnought would be your best bet.

    Twists:
    Standing with Stone (tier 4)
    Rejuvenating Cocoon (tier 1)
    A Dance with Flowers (tier 1)

    Feats:
    Monk: Toughness
    Monk: Power Attack
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Empower Heal Spell
    Improved Critical
    Stunning Blow (if you can get your DC high enough)
    Overwhelming Critical

    I'd choose Helf or Human for the Versatility stacking with LD Haste Boost, and the Improved Recovery. With Paladin Extra Action Boost and LD Extra Action Boost, that's 10 of each boost without dedicating gear slots.

    EDIT: Future proofing and mind reading is impossible, but it's been alluded to that Human will have access to all racial prestige which includes the Dwarven Defender archetype. Depending on how the combined HotD/KoS prestige turns out, the potential for combining both of them in this build is mouth watering.
    Last edited by Carpone; 03-07-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Assuming you don't already have a Juggernaut...

    47% damage reduction (128 PRR) is amazing. Couple that with Rejuvenation Cocoon, reasonable AC and good healing amp it's very self-sustaining (80 Devotion enhancements + 80 Potency from Halcyon Boots + 75 Empower Heal Spell feat = 235 Devotion!)

    Unfortunately Fury of the Wild and Defender stance don't mix. Legendary Dreadnought would be your best bet.

    Twists:
    Standing with Stone (tier 4)
    Rejuvenating Cocoon (tier 1)
    A Dance with Flowers (tier 1)

    Feats:
    Monk: Toughness
    Monk: Power Attack
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Empower Heal Spell
    Improved Critical
    Stunning Blow (if you can get your DC high enough)
    Overwhelming Critical

    I'd choose Helf or Human for the Versatility stacking with LD Haste Boost, and the Improved Recovery. With Paladin Extra Action Boost and LD Extra Action Boost, that's 10 of each boost without dedicating gear slots.
    You haven't taken the feat for DoS ("Requires One of the Following: Combat Expertise,Diehard, Shield Mastery, Tower Shield Proficiency)"

  7. #7
    SithDDO Symerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Assuming you don't already have a Juggernaut...

    TRed my main last week after a "bugged" LR. He's now a capped Juggernaut Although Haek decided to call me the "Jacque-er-naut" due to my french origins

    47% damage reduction (128 PRR) is amazing. Couple that with Rejuvenation Cocoon, reasonable AC and good healing amp it's very self-sustaining (80 Devotion enhancements + 80 Potency from Halcyon Boots + 75 Empower Heal Spell feat = 235 Devotion!)

    Unfortunately Fury of the Wild and Defender stance don't mix. Legendary Dreadnought would be your best bet.

    Awww.. I didn't know about this.

    Twists:
    Standing with Stone (tier 4)
    Rejuvenating Cocoon (tier 1)
    A Dance with Flowers (tier 1)

    Feats:
    Monk: Toughness
    Monk: Power Attack
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Empower Heal Spell
    Improved Critical
    Stunning Blow (if you can get your DC high enough)
    Overwhelming Critical

    I'd choose Helf or Human for the Versatility stacking with LD Haste Boost, and the Improved Recovery. With Paladin Extra Action Boost and LD Extra Action Boost, that's 10 of each boost without dedicating gear slots.
    I like it a lot, definitely a great idea to TR my alt into this. Thanks for your thoughts!

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  8. #8
    Community Member bergeau09's Avatar
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    Default 2nd!

    The 2nd idea sound great to me, look like a complete melee build, just wondering, what race? Human for feat? Helf for dilly? Might try it myself if, once you tried it, you're giving positive feedback. And are you gonna use Q-Staff all the way to 25? - Only con I see, (well, as what I heard) is that Pally make better Tank that DIPYESSSS toon, but i'm pretty sure you can deny this affirmation.

    If I had to do it, I would likely choose you're 2nd idea.
    See you soon,

    Hoss~

    EDIT : What PrE will you choose?
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  9. #9
    SithDDO Symerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergeau09 View Post
    The 2nd idea sound great to me, look like a complete melee build, just wondering, what race? Human for feat? Helf for dilly? Might try it myself if, once you tried it, you're giving positive feedback. And are you gonna use Q-Staff all the way to 25? - Only con I see, (well, as what I heard) is that Pally make better Tank that DIPYESSSS toon, but i'm pretty sure you can deny this affirmation.

    If I had to do it, I would likely choose you're 2nd idea.
    See you soon,

    Hoss~

    EDIT : What PrE will you choose?
    This is just an idea for an alt I haven't played in a year.
    I'm not necessarily looking for a max build (that's what my main is here for). The fewer past lives/gear the better. I want something fun and survivable to play (the build would be human and either an adaptation of Carpone's idea or a pure kotc fury pally with deathnips/nightmares if haek can convince me).
    Paladins are good DPS.
    Tanks are of no particular use in this game besides eelob, although they can be fun and decent to play now with doublestrike and tactics in LD.

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  10. #10
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    If you want Fury as your main destiny then yea, Stalwart is a horrible combination with that.

    How about a dwarven version of that pally build in LD with dual Axe of Axadus? 19-20 x7 crits. You can go stalwart that way.
    (You can still make it Human or Helf if you prefer that since thats not a dwarven axe, but just a battle Axe with the damage of a dwarven axe).
    Can't really see deathnips being good in endgame. Base damage is rather low and will suffer a lot on fort mobs therefor, since theres not to many good weapon alternatives if you go IC: Pierce on such a feat starved build.
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  11. #11
    SithDDO Symerith's Avatar
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    Well all this paladin talk got me excited about TRing sith into one (yay.. about having all the gear on one toon and not enjoying playing alts). Mainly, I get bored of playing builds I've already played so a twf paladin would be something new to me.

    Paladin bonuses atm:
    + They can twist haste boost
    + With THF>TWF, they are the most viable TWF class
    + High saves which is incredibly important
    + Great self heals, emergency and "out of combat" healing
    + Benefits a lot from good gear & completionist since a twf paladin relies on 4 different stats and wants to get divine might IV
    + Versatily through different PRE
    + most importantly fun to play?
    + I don't have nightmares/balizardes and it would require a new setup. 50 commendations needed. Good. I need some "grind" to keep me busy
    - Cleave/Great Cleave/lay waste/momentum swing animations look like **** and they are more in favor to THF
    - No manyshot
    - hard to get all the good enh.


    Deathnips will be awesome for leveling, but at cap I'd rather use khopeshes since the axe of axadus really looks like **** and I have 2x Epic Chaosblades (well they look sooo good) and Alchem khopeshes. Nightmare + off hand balizarde would work as well.

    I'm guessing feats would look like this:
    Assuming human 18 paladin 2 monk (12 feats):
    twf
    itwf
    gtwf
    oc
    pa
    stuning blow
    ic slashing
    exotic weapon proficiency: khopesh
    cleave
    great cleave
    2 last feats could be: Toughness, Completionist, Empower Healing, Quicken, Extend, Shield mastery (if going for syberis stance which is a pretty solid route)... probably go with completionist and shield mastery. Thoughts?
    If I'm going with the shield mastery route, that means I'm staying full time in LD.

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  12. #12
    Community Member CrackedIce's Avatar
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    15 pali nets you basically most of the benefits for going pali other then the capstone and DOS prestige.

    It also lets you use your APs more efficiently

    If it were me, I would ignore evasion as I see that as not the one all be all way of doing things.

    And go Human, 4 ranger, and 1 fighter

    - going Hunter of the Dead in Fury with cocoon, pin, whistler, momentum swing, seeker, endless heals, endless smites...so many options for flexibility.

    Combined HOTD with human and gear nets you great fast healing, LOH, and cocoon (especially if empower healed)

    Why ranger:

    Rams might offsets Divine might 4 and saves focus for other stat set up

    Allows you to only spend 2 feats for manyshot (PBS and manyshot)

    sprint boost, reflex saves, free twf feat, 1 FE if care about that

    Why fighter:

    free feat, haste boost 1

    So as human get 9 free feats

    Ranger gives you:

    Bow strength, rapid shot, precise shot (archer focus), twf

    9 feats:

    itw, gtf

    PA, C, GC

    empower heal or toughness

    Improved crit - slash (or wtr melee)

    PBS, Manyshot

    Epic feats:

    Improved precise shot / something else if prefer

    OC

    Spamming divine sacrifice is fun with weapons like blizzarde on adrenaline.

    Anyway thats my take on a pali originality build

    Alternatively can go 1 wizard for more sp, echoes of power, extend feat and drop OC line for more utility feats like stunning blow, force of personality, and both toughness and empwer heals

    Although, 2 ranger 3 monk nets you same feats set up and you gain evasion and extra 10% to heals, so if you dont mind staying in light armor (staying centered will be difficult while twf as the weapons you will want will be nonmonk) that should work great
    Last edited by CrackedIce; 03-07-2013 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    + high PRR: 10 base+3lesser stance+10DosI+15DosII+20DosII+20DosStance+14Slotte d+15Gmof Twist+15Planar+6Fury+15planar = 128 which is pretty sweet
    You need to use a shield for the DoS or DS PRR bonus, plus you need to be in stance for the second set of PRR bonuses.

    Using a shield makes you uncentered, so the earth stance and DoS shield PRR are incompatible.

    Second don't think the different tiers of DoS PRR stack. ie. just 20+20 if using shield in stance, not 10+15+20+20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    + Using sireth, high doublestrike w/ Fury + items
    Lightening mace gives a 6sec +15% doublestrike proc on crits. Works very well with Sireth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    I'm guessing feats would look like this:
    Assuming human 18 paladin 2 monk (12 feats):
    twf
    itwf
    gtwf
    oc
    pa
    stuning blow
    ic slashing
    exotic weapon proficiency: khopesh
    cleave
    great cleave
    2 last feats could be: Toughness, Completionist, Empower Healing, Quicken, Extend, Shield mastery (if going for syberis stance which is a pretty solid route)... probably go with completionist and shield mastery. Thoughts?
    If I'm going with the shield mastery route, that means I'm staying full time in LD.
    If you factor in the enhancement/racial PrE changes and wanting to go DoS/DS, then you don't need to go 18/2.

    16/2/2fighter or 15/3(mk)/2 are also good breaks. You don't get the top smites, but the extra two feats give you: 7 + 1(hm) + 2 (monk) + 2 (fighter) + 2 epic = 14.

    (9) GTWF{3}, PA, IC, C, GC, OC, Khopesh
    (3) Stunning Blow, Empower Healing, Quicken,
    Choice 2: Completionist, Stunning Fist, Toughness and/or Epic Toughness

    Fighter gives you Tower Shield for DoS/DS, depending on how the racial PrE works. Dwarf version with DAxes and tactics is also good, especially with the extra saves and headsman chop.
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  16. #16
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    If I'm going with the shield mastery route, that means I'm staying full time in LD.
    Turn the stance off and switch to fury for the stuff you think fury is better. Works for fighter.

    How about a dwarven version of that pally build in LD with dual Axe of Axadus? 19-20 x7 crits.
    That axe is not good ( duergar is better, especially with pally benefitting from good crit profile ), and dwarf is meh too, he needs all the feats, better go human.

    just 20+20 if using shield in stance
    Yes, + prr from shield mastery of course

    This is lost imho in all the " I do no damage because I have 35 strength in sentinel and have crappy longsword" posts .
    I wonder if you can make a capstone twf pally work !
    Last edited by Encair; 03-08-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gummolo View Post
    You haven't taken the feat for DoS ("Requires One of the Following: Combat Expertise,Diehard, Shield Mastery, Tower Shield Proficiency)"
    Thanks for reminding me why DoS is suboptimal. One of the goals of the prestige revamp is less dependence on feats. This is certainly the case where Paladins would benefit.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Thanks for reminding me why DoS is suboptimal. One of the goals of the prestige revamp is less dependence on feats. This is certainly the case where Paladins would benefit.
    ^^ Yes they are bound to get a bone in the pass.

    My first melee was a 18/2 pally monk kotc twf geob khobesh wielder, as devil bosses ruled endgame raids at that time he fitted right in as boss dps.

    IMO DoS is very slow and heavy and just not fun to play unless you love tanking...

    HotD and KotC splashed with 2 monk (even more for feats 3 monk 2 fighter) centered and using Sireth in black dragon robes is an interesting idea but imo nowhere near your build Sith or the Jugger.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    Well all this paladin talk got me excited about TRing sith into one (yay.. about having all the gear on one toon and not enjoying playing alts). Mainly, I get bored of playing builds I've already played so a twf paladin would be something new to me.

    Paladin bonuses atm:
    + They can twist haste boost
    + With THF>TWF, they are the most viable TWF class
    + High saves which is incredibly important
    + Great self heals, emergency and "out of combat" healing
    + Benefits a lot from good gear & completionist since a twf paladin relies on 4 different stats and wants to get divine might IV
    + Versatily through different PRE
    + most importantly fun to play?
    + I don't have nightmares/balizardes and it would require a new setup. 50 commendations needed. Good. I need some "grind" to keep me busy
    - Cleave/Great Cleave/lay waste/momentum swing animations look like **** and they are more in favor to THF
    - No manyshot
    - hard to get all the good enh.


    Deathnips will be awesome for leveling, but at cap I'd rather use khopeshes since the axe of axadus really looks like **** and I have 2x Epic Chaosblades (well they look sooo good) and Alchem khopeshes. Nightmare + off hand balizarde would work as well.

    I'm guessing feats would look like this:
    Assuming human 18 paladin 2 monk (12 feats):
    twf
    itwf
    gtwf
    oc
    pa
    stuning blow
    ic slashing
    exotic weapon proficiency: khopesh
    cleave
    great cleave
    2 last feats could be: Toughness, Completionist, Empower Healing, Quicken, Extend, Shield mastery (if going for syberis stance which is a pretty solid route)... probably go with completionist and shield mastery. Thoughts?
    If I'm going with the shield mastery route, that means I'm staying full time in LD.
    I would recommend quicken unless you plan to twist endless lay on hands and completionist is really nice on a such a stat dependant build.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    Deathnips will be awesome for leveling, but at cap I'd rather use khopeshes since the axe of axadus really looks like **** and I have 2x Epic Chaosblades (well they look sooo good) and Alchem khopeshes.
    I very strongly urge you to use neither of those khopeshes. Just because they were hard to acquire doesn't mean they are any good.
    If I'm going with the shield mastery route, that means I'm staying full time in LD.
    I very strongly urge you to consider Shadowdancer instead. SnB DPS has come a long way, but being able to pump out 21 * 1.9 * TWF speed still blows it away.

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