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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    It was just a counter point that pulling from personal experience has no bearing on the strength of a class. I know that divines are stronger than being incapable of soloing a single room in a deleras 1 at level 9 on a first life, much less a 10th life.



    It depends how you play as much as how much time you put in. Realistically, you can go from level 9 to 13 in a little over an hour on the a first life with farming shadow crypt. You can get the runs down to 3 minutes or so with the right players and cohesion, where as the same quest would take 20-30 minutes even using a guide with a poor party. Or 6-8 minutes soloing it by yourself.

    It also depends if you don't mind soloing things or if you like to play with a party. If you don't mind running past everything and then burning half the dungeon in a choke point or just going as you go. A rainbow in the dark can be done in ~4 fights or upwards of 40 individual fights.

    In any case, the barb/divine experience I've played both through the leveling process, the divine is far easier to create groups. Everyone seems interested in joining groups with divines in them, where as a barb starting a group is much harder to get going. But with a decent divine that babysits me, or in a lot of instances a hireling, I mow through quests 2-3x as fast as I could of on a divine.

    I probably enjoy playing the divine more, attacking is pretty stagnant or similar with just about every mob. Very little critical thinking is put into running into the mobs and cleaving, where as when you're healing positioning, split-second decisions, a snap reactions come into play more often than not. When you add the concentration requirement of keeping your LD rotation running and since I mostly mass heal around myself my own positioning to benefit the group, I find them more interesting to play.

    That said, you'll never convince me a barb's damage < divine's damage, because it's simply not true. You'll never convince me that a damage dealing divine, once heals are covered, brings more to the table than a barbarian. But we can be friends, despite the hostile tone I may take I never meant to be unfriendly.
    It shows how actually disconnected you are from both the actual game and the point of this topic about divines being expected to play nannybot.

    You see just about as many people would want to shadow farm etc as view EE as the only game to play. Meaning trivial numbers of players per server who think highly of themselves when in fact they are the biggest laughingstock of our game population.

    People in general are not XP/Per min players. they play for fun, to explore dungeons and do so using new and different builds each time around. This is what gives a game replayability and increases its ability to hold alot of MMO gamers a longer time. The hard core grind out lvls asap style you try to use as your foundation in view and arguments literally doesnt even exist during these discussions you keep jumping into. For the purpose of divine players who play to have fun, rather then as a 2nd job, what your trying to talk about is as relevent as talking raid strategies for WoW.

    What you also fail to grasp is no barbarian outside of the infamous forum poster Shade and his legendary full on ****** dps barb build actually lives up to that top dps capability that one has to reach to actually be heard when talking about it. Sure many imitate his builds, try to follow his guides, but they are not him and wont ever be close. You might want to think your in the same league as him but you wont ever even be within smart bomb tactical strike distance of him let alone close enough to spit on him or hold his cape while he shows you what a real barby dps build is all about.

    But the real reason he gets any actual agreement, has any one even anti ****** dps builld players like myself give him any respect is he is a number cruncher who has proven dps out put potential and done so not entirely biased towards his own play style.

    He himself if i recall right not long after the release of EDs and he himself making several fully ED capped characters, put together some charts, and showed hands down that under his beloved ****** DPS build, the top tier DPS slot went to arcane archers of any class mix that included many shot, 10k stars, IPS and had a max attack bonus along with high wisdom. Nor is it a surprise that with all that listed, a divine warrior build including the ever increasingly popular clonkcher splits pull that off.

    Nor has anyone pro BYOH/Self sufficient divine warriors who look first to thier own needs been saying well we dont NEVER heal others, but any time you expect a actually living thinking human to have more fun in an action game thats only strong feature and real advantage in the MMO genre is the fast play action, is asking us to have LESS fun.

    However it has been said, spelled out, and of used as a major point in the side who demands nanny bots, that there should be nothing wrong with players of barbie dolls and fighters who want to just log on and whack stuff with no thought to the consequences to expect a cleric to just join and do their job of sitting back shutting up and healing. You know like a good little hireling.

    Nor do those ****** DPS builds get that Shade when on his, is so far above everyone else who tries to be like him in play ability its just ridiculous. You try to compare running in and swinging mindlessly to a player who is so well known when it comes to his twitch skills and situational awareness, that using anything but a multi tasked build is a waste honestly, that for him taking incoming DPS is far less then the many wannabes are capable of. That for the icon they try to live up to is just too good at what he does. Its like a legion of drizzit fanbois thinking if they make a drow ranger two scimitar wielder they will be as amazing as the character is in the novels.

    meanwhile the AA DPS build simply requires using a good bow, self made arrows, and shooting at an enemy when his MS/10k are off cooldown, and for divine versions gives nice moments to take some time to toss a few heals if needed. I rather enjoy that kind of mix of support and DPS play myself because healing is not what its about, nor what it does most of the time, thus is an enjoyable thing to do in an ACTIOn game.

    Remember our premise is if we are not actually doing combat we are not doing anything fun, thus being told, demanded or expected to spend more then 10% of any play session doing other then fighting no matter what class we are on, is unfun and makes there no poiint in even logging on.

    Without hard numbers these things are facts.

    1: In DDO year one, it was incredibly common on every server for groups lead by and comprised largely of ****** dps glass cannon melee builds to wait for a half hour or more to get the NEEDed divine to join and play nanny.

    2: It was more common for Divines to group together, knowing that with two of them and DVs they could go longer and do more healing and buffing for themselves while having fun swinging weapons.

    3: Dps during this time still came more from wepaons then anything else, a cleric with a rare wounding weapon could and would outkill the best THF barb time and again( hence all the whiny ***** ass ****** dps QQ to get stat dmg nerfed)

    4: A hybrid character evena warrior with lvls of pal and rogue complimenting for higher saves and evasion when combined with any kind of fighting style made for a better more survivable warrior that divines where far more happy to work with and offer a friendly heal to in dire moments.

    5: Groups overly depending on clerics where common, clerics going anon and sticking to static and guild groups also became more and more common. Until due to that along with other factors, forced turbine to recognize the need for scaling and dif settings directed more towards casual play and groups lacking perfect make up.

    What alot dont get is that elite dif, and EE by their very nature where never actually even content meant for meat head builds focussed on DPS and HP as their only to relevent numbers. Not even with blue bars. Sure skilled players can with experience and foreknowledge over come any static stagnant challenge with enough prep work, but even in year one, it was never groups or even lone clerics who found the game very hard, just those who refused to heal themselves and carry tools to recover.

    It is only further proven who is the burden on whom, when a lone solo cleric will often build up coin fast in the 1-10 game, while the ones who actually try to play healer will often be expected to use consumable when mana runs out, costs in plat along with it. and hence the common term the poor cleric, found and described in the Path To Enlightenment.

    The reason I and many choose to make self recovering warriors is often about keeping our own personal resource costs to a minimun, id rather run out of blue then use a single cure pot, when that blue is going to myself. It really is that simple. I and many build for that blue to replace our own personal need for a bag full of pots etc, not to stack with them to use on others.

    In the end with the exception of a very few players, most full ****** dps builds will be played so poorly, and used so poorly, that even a half competent player on a decently built AA spike build will do better while bringing other useful things to the group and not being a burden of a mana sponge.

    No amount of DPs brought makes up for being a mana sponge, nor turning anothers play session into the dull chore of support medic. Its really that simple.

  2. #202
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    This is what gives a game replayability and increases its ability to hold alot of MMO gamers a longer time.
    New content allows people to continue to enjoy an MMO. You simply cannot run something a million times from different points of view and still be entertained. PNP can run the same campaign a million different ways, running the same quest in DDO is the same thing regardless of what you do.

    People in general are not XP/Per min players.
    Which is why I suppose 99% of the players I run into in LFMs are like awesome, this was an excellent group who ran quests nice and fast. The minority are the people who 'hate zerging' and leave.

    What you also fail to grasp is no barbarian outside of the infamous forum poster Shade and his legendary full on ****** dps barb build actually lives up to that top dps capability that one has to reach to actually be heard when talking about it.
    It's not like it actually requires all that much in this rendition of the game to be stupidly high DPS. A blitzing, moderately geared barbarian will be doing enough damage to justify the damage he takes to a divine to heal. Also I'm 100% positive you haven't played with the vast majority of barbarians, back in the day eSoS was quite rare and right now it's a dime a dozen. Plus there are other competitive weapons like cleaver out.

    But the real reason he gets any actual agreement, has any one even anti ****** dps builld players like myself give him any respect is he is a number cruncher who has proven dps out put potential and done so not entirely biased towards his own play style.
    You call me biased but I main divine.

    Nor has anyone pro BYOH/Self sufficient divine warriors who look first to thier own needs been saying well we dont NEVER heal others, but any time you expect a actually living thinking human to have more fun in an action game thats only strong feature and real advantage in the MMO genre is the fast play action, is asking us to have LESS fun.
    This is once again an opinionated statement. People have fun in different ways. I enjoy maximizing damage while maintaining a healthy part while zerging extremely quickly. The fun in healing comes from the fact that it's not static, it requires decisions beyond getting into the middle of mobs and cleaving. Not much thought has to be put out for melee/arcanes, the real thought-provoking play comes from the dynamic mixture of healing, damaging, and positioning.

    Also there is far more depth to this game than being a fast paced action game. MMOs are more than 75% a social game, the content and gameplay of all MMOs are poor compared to single-player counterparts but the social aspect is what keeps people playing. I group together economy with social aspects, as this is another thing that draws people to MMOs.

    Also I have never once said that divines should sit there and ONLY heal, I simply said that LETTING people die when you have SP is disgusting, especially so when it's not simply an error in play but because you wanted to do damage instead of keeping the players alive.

    Nor do those ****** DPS builds get that Shade when on his, is so far above everyone else who tries to be like him in play ability its just ridiculous.
    This game has a very low mechanical skill requirement in comparison to other games. You can tell this simply by looking at a raid from this game and a raid from another game, that actually requires things beyond just minor positioning and casting your spells.

    What alot dont get is that elite dif, and EE by their very nature where never actually even content meant for meat head builds focussed on DPS and HP as their only to relevent numbers.
    Which is ironic because the best way to get through such content is a meathead DPS that can hold agro and a divine who doesn't have his head so far up his head his ass that he heals and doesn't expect extreme self sufficiency.

    Though, I will agree that right now the funnest group I've been in was a group of shiradis+juggs all watching eachother's backs and tearing up content.

  3. #203
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    I agree with most of you on this thread. The player base has seemed to get dumber as time has pasted. This is not due to them being new or just coming back after break. Each player needs to find a way to keep themselves up. I understand how important hp for each class. Some class hp is not as important via the build like nannybot clerics dont really need alot of hp since all they do is heal, buff and remove negitive effects. We need to come together and improve our player base to help new players. With all the tr'ing i do, i normally just hand out loot to new players to aid them. Also we need to give advice and be listen too by newer players.

    Noobish players hard-headness is just plainly ********. Some of us like to do things to help others out and you jerks make it harder for the rest of us. It not hard to ask questions if you dont know something or want advice. quit trying to be the big bad ass player who gets all the agro and doesn't understand why you die. Zerg play style is only for those who know what they are doing. so please don't join this parties if you dont know what you are doing.

  4. #204
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    Default If you are experienced then take care of yourself

    Unless you are doing a specialized task that needs support, take care of yourself. Thats it. Period. You are responsible for keeping yourself alive. There are now many many options to keep yourself alive so take care of yourself. Thats it. Period.

    If you take agro and cannot handle the incomming damage then you took on too much agro. What a crazy concept.

    If you are in position where another hit could kill you and there is no lag going on, then you are not in the right spot.

    Dying is not cool. It cost resources and should be used as giant teaching tool saying you did something wrong. Unless there is lag or special quest action you need to take.

    However, if you pay another player real money to promise to heal you everytime you take damage then you should be healed all the time. Barring that, you are responsible to keep your toon alive.

  5. #205
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    No amount of DPs brought makes up for being a mana sponge, nor turning anothers play session into the dull chore of support medic. Its really that simple.
    Not only this, but if you can't keep yourself alive, many times you're not just a minor chore but actually a liability. No healer in the game can afford to throw heals every time people take damage--you have to wait until they're hitting the "danger zone" around 50% hp. However, with many people, their toon is so poorly-constructed that they go almost instantly from 100% health to DEAD. No healer can keep someone with this issue alive efficiently. This is what it means to be a mana sponge. If you're getting nickled and dimed down by trash, that's a different matter. If time and time again you run in and EXPLODE in a cloud of gore, the only thing to do with you is let you ride in the backpack as a stone. You are not helping complete the quest, you are actually *preventing* the completion by siphoning off resources while not contributing.

    You don't need to be self-sufficient to contribute. What you need to be, is tough enough that it takes a while for you to hit half health and that you stay there long enough that the healer can notice and throw you a heal. If you go from 100% to dead in 5 seconds, you're staying dead.
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  6. #206
    Community Member ~D4rth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    You simply cannot run something a million times from different points of view and still be entertained.
    Actually I can. It's called TRing and some of us quite enjoy it. There's also one other popular game in the world that does that, it's called chess. And I know a lot of people who like chess.

    I tend to play DDO like it, trying out different strategies with different toons every life. And I will plain outdo your DPS barbarian on ANY of my gimp builds any day of the week, be it in kills, speed or survivability.

  7. #207
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    What you need to be, is tough enough that it takes a while for you to hit half health and that you stay there long enough that the healer can notice and throw you a heal.
    Along with enough healing amp that getting you back up is quickly handled. I really hate seeing Warforged Barbarians who apparently felt it was unnecessary to take Healer's Friend nor equip any form of healing amp gear. Those players soon stop receiving anything but True Resurrection as they are as much a liability as a player with low HP.
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