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  1. #41
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    I'll agree with this also.


    Just this morning, a level 14 monk pm'ed me if he could get into my party for elite running with the devils... Usually that's a rough quest, so I try to get people who know it etc etc... So I was skeptical at first. But he said he could do it and my group was pretty much going shortman (fighter, fvs (me), wiz\rog).




    And let me tell you... everyone in the party had multiple deaths and he didn't die once. And not because we had to overheal\babysit him. He must have stunned every cleric in there as well. And with only around 250 HP! (can't remember if it was 220 or 280)

    So tactics\smarts > HP, definitely.

  2. #42
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molyincide View Post
    I'll agree with this also.


    Just this morning, a level 14 monk pm'ed me if he could get into my party for elite running with the devils... Usually that's a rough quest, so I try to get people who know it etc etc... So I was skeptical at first. But he said he could do it and my group was pretty much going shortman (fighter, fvs (me), wiz\rog).




    And let me tell you... everyone in the party had multiple deaths and he didn't die once. And not because we had to overheal\babysit him. He must have stunned every cleric in there as well. And with only around 250 HP! (can't remember if it was 220 or 280)

    So tactics\smarts > HP, definitely.
    I don't think anyone would disagree player skill is more important than anything else. That said my experience is that that monk is well above average on a bell curve of skill. I do not for one millionth of a second believe that the average pugger would be able to do this and in fact I see the average pugger dying repeated in that quest with 400hp. I'd rather assume average to below average and get a surprise when a pugger does better than that, low hp players I expect will contribute nothing but scaling. I have been proved wrong twice on the low hp member that I can remember.

  3. #43
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    I think hp and player skill go hand and hand. If you have skill you are knowledgable. If you are knowledgeable, your goofy ass wouldn't be rockn 1hitko status in elite.

    So in this I say skilled people usually not only have the hps if not a great hp/sp, they also kick any and all ass while having so.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  4. #44
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    If healing him results in the overall damage output being lower than just letting him die, then let him die.
    If not, then suck it up and play the class you picked.

    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes, but that doesn't remove your job as the healer. Wanna be a big time battle -cleric-, then remember that you're still a -cleric-.

    You definitely don't see rogues sitting around *****ing about how everyone else should be able to do traps. And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.

    Wands are completely inefficient. They remove your ability to do damage, and essentially only make use in healing between battles. Potions lose effectiveness as a battle-remedy past level 8-10, then serve as the same function as wands. Heal scrolls require huge investment even after a rogue or arti splash or a half-elf dilly, both of which cause huge sacrifices to builds and in every case lower the damage the classes can deal. Heal scrolls also cannot be quickened, lower DPS entirely while switched, and aren't realistically a sustaining tool while in fights which 100+ shots being thrown out.

  5. #45
    Community Member BigSlugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer. I sent the leader a tell, thinking he may have misclicked or something. He said that if I had that many HP (I think he had around 730-740 at that time) I must have neglected everything else.

    I told him I was a level 4 Unyielding Sentinel and he replied, "So?"
    Sounds like you dodged a bullet.

  6. #46
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    If not, then suck it up and play the class you picked.
    Your way or the highway, heh?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes,...
    Uh huh. Against undead I would wager that divines do more damage on average than any 2 leet rogues. Your little pigeonhole seems to also contain a few loopholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    ...but that doesn't remove your job as the healer.
    THE healer? So if he dies, who is gonna raise him?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.
    There are "unavoidable traps" in DDO, yet this has never happened in its entire history. In fact, for significant sections of time rogues were completely shunned from many powergamer groups despite the existence of nasty traps. While a rogue can fail a disable device check, a cleric simply cannot fail raising someone on the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Heal scrolls require huge investment even after a rogue or arti splash or a half-elf dilly, both of which cause huge sacrifices to builds and in every case lower the damage the classes can deal.
    You sure about that? Cause I'm pretty sure that the same UMD that can handle a Heal scroll can also handle a Tensor's Transformation scroll. It likely can handle a raise dead for the wizard, who might (possibly) cast haste on you (and he'll even feel like doing so after you are nice enough to raise him). Not to mention that 1 or 2 levels of rogue can provide some fairly significant backstab bonuses...

    Just wanted to let you know that your attempt to define the function of classes in DDO (many of which have been multi-classed) failed pretty hard.

  7. #47
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    You definitely don't see rogues sitting around *****ing about how everyone else should be able to do traps. And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.
    rogues, artificers and splashes that invest for trapping are the only builds that can do traps. every build can heal themselves, even if its just pots.

    most traps can be avoided in some way. to avoid trap damage, most times it just takes timing or there is a way around the trap. a zerg group will usually either run through them or make a half arsed attempt at avoiding getting hit. not saying I don't appreciate a trapper or respect their role, but just saying there are workarounds.

  8. #48
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    If healing him results in the overall damage output being lower than just letting him die, then let him die.
    If not, then suck it up and play the class you picked.

    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes, but that doesn't remove your job as the healer. Wanna be a big time battle -cleric-, then remember that you're still a -cleric-.

    You definitely don't see rogues sitting around *****ing about how everyone else should be able to do traps. And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.

    Wands are completely inefficient. They remove your ability to do damage, and essentially only make use in healing between battles. Potions lose effectiveness as a battle-remedy past level 8-10, then serve as the same function as wands. Heal scrolls require huge investment even after a rogue or arti splash or a half-elf dilly, both of which cause huge sacrifices to builds and in every case lower the damage the classes can deal. Heal scrolls also cannot be quickened, lower DPS entirely while switched, and aren't realistically a sustaining tool while in fights which 100+ shots being thrown out.
    ill refuse players like you all day. i might be a divine as a tr or playing the actual class but my melee damage might be behind but my cometfalls blade barriers etc will do a little more then you sometimes. it might even reduce the damage you take.

    i refuse to heal players who don't understand aggro tactics hp or are just plain stupid. you can argue it all you want, but we have the right to refuse service. im not anyone's personal nanny that follows them on a whim good or not.

    if you cant use heals scrolls because their expensive then yet again blame yourself and no one else for choosing to do this.

  9. #49
    Community Member Rian's Avatar
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    I'm getting a vibe about classes capable of healing that just screams of a sign.

    No brain
    No sense
    No service

    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. - Mark Twain

  10. #50
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    I play DDO like WoW
    Grats
    Bacab Warforged 18 Arty (Active) Hjealer Dwarven Battle Cleric 10CLR/1FTR
    Atropine Human 11 WIZ/1ROG (Active)
    Member of THACO on Ghallanda

  11. #51
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    If healing him results in the overall damage output being lower than just letting him die, then let him die.
    If not, then suck it up and play the class you picked.

    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes, but that doesn't remove your job as the healer. Wanna be a big time battle -cleric-, then remember that you're still a -cleric-.

    You definitely don't see rogues sitting around *****ing about how everyone else should be able to do traps. And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.

    Wands are completely inefficient. They remove your ability to do damage, and essentially only make use in healing between battles. Potions lose effectiveness as a battle-remedy past level 8-10, then serve as the same function as wands. Heal scrolls require huge investment even after a rogue or arti splash or a half-elf dilly, both of which cause huge sacrifices to builds and in every case lower the damage the classes can deal. Heal scrolls also cannot be quickened, lower DPS entirely while switched, and aren't realistically a sustaining tool while in fights which 100+ shots being thrown out.
    50%... HAHAHAHAHA. oh thats freaking hilarious, Its very very rare I meet a mele that can even keep up! Sure the pure mele will do more damage when they swing their weapon but a well built divne can mele, heal and kill with magic - its all about bringing the right tool for the right foe.

    A well played divine can keep the muppets alive AND out kill them in most content. Its realy only epic elits where your too busy watching the hp - and with a solid group even that is debateable.

    The bigest issue is the damn meles who like to fight out side of the scrum - forcing the divine to single target them and wasting everyones time and resources. Of course its THESE meles who think in rigid terms of 'jobs', and the sad fact when it comes to players like that is that not only can the divine do your 'job' he can do it better, faster and more efficiently than you while doing his own 'job' at the same time.

    Now dont get me wrong there ARE some exceptional meles out there, I have the pleasure of knowing several - and for those guys im willing to hold back and heal (if they need it) and let them 'blitz' off. but even better is when i roll allong right next to em stunning mobs and ccing the extras. That realy is how I like to play and it works briliantly, all I ask is that If im gona have to cary the weaker wariors through a dungeon they have the common decency to stick next to me so its not a total pain and resource drain to keep em alive.

    A meles true 'job' in ddo is not slaughtering the trash... all the party can do that, where a mele shines is vs the red bosses, If i can respect what a mele brings to those encounters why cant they respect what I as a divine bring against the trash thats in our way...Lets all have a little mutual respect eh, a little mutual co-operation. Us divines will heal folks (and kill trash and CC), and you meles rememeber to stay tightly packed and nearby, and pack some form of defence, and heal amp, and tactics.....
    Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
    stuff by me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...02#post4938302

  12. #52
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer. I sent the leader a tell, thinking he may have misclicked or something. He said that if I had that many HP (I think he had around 730-740 at that time) I must have neglected everything else.

    I told him I was a level 4 Unyielding Sentinel and he replied, "So?"
    yup yup... when my cleric is in sentinal he tops 1k. Ive been asked to tank on occasion - not that he was actualy built as a tank you understand - and i cant hold agro worth a damn, he was built as a close in raid healer.. still its amusing to see a 'HJEALOR' with them hp, i swear i saw some of the meles wheep a tear or 2.
    Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
    stuff by me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...02#post4938302

  13. #53
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes, but that doesn't remove your job as the healer. Wanna be a big time battle -cleric-, then remember that you're still a -cleric-.
    /half serious
    Hey wanna bet if you are on Ghallanda ? I will prolly tr my main into clr/fvs AGAIN in a week or two, so pick any elite heroic quest and we can see if "still a -cleric-" does anything faster than your " real damage dealing class ". !
    May I suggest Gop, Vol, Oob, Mired in Kobolds, RwtD, Wiz king and Sins perhaps ?
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  14. #54
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    Argo.
    Melee based divines will do 50% of the damage, IF THAT, of any -real- melee build. In fact some of you even admit it, though add a clause that such a player is hard to find.

    Evokers will never be able to keep up with arcanes in raw damage or instant-killing, and their only caveat that makes them useful beyond an arcane is the ability to effectively heal parties.

    These statements are fact. You cannot lie to numbers.

    As to the statement on traps. Unless you're running with an entire group of friends - in which case *****ing about healing is hardly a point - you're going to run with players who cannot survive the traps unless you disable them. Sure you can res them, run through, accept, lose 10% exp, another 15% because you don't have a trapper, and take significantly longer to level.

    To Enclair, I find it adorable that you suggest the quests that appear once you get blade barrier, possibly the only instance where you'll ever be capable of doing things faster than a melee. That niche area right when you get the spell, divine's are indeed powerful, but before and after they're garbage if their attitude is: Heal yourself, I do big damage!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    50%... HAHAHAHAHA. oh thats freaking hilarious, Its very very rare I meet a mele that can even keep up!...
    Aaaaaaaaand stopped reading here.

    Play a battle cleric if you want, play an evoker if you want. You do less melee damage but make up for it with spells, ok, w/e. You still have the ability to heal. If you can't stop your 50-100 damage swings for a second to throw someone a heal that needs it you may as well not even be in the party (regardless of how super leet your blade barrier or sub par melee damage is).

    I think I'll start refusing to stun on my monk because I'm here to dps not be some "muppets" stun bot, even if keeping that horrible caster stunned means less aoe damage being put out which translates to less stress and more efficiency for the healer. Because hey, doing what should be expected of me instead of standing in the pull and cleaving all day makes me feel dejected.

  16. #56
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    As to the statement on traps. Unless you're running with an entire group of friends - in which case *****ing about healing is hardly a point - you're going to run with players who cannot survive the traps unless you disable them. Sure you can res them, run through, accept, lose 10% exp, another 15% because you don't have a trapper, and take significantly longer to level.
    If a player is willing to wait 2 seconds i will show them how to not die from a trap without just running through them. I solo A LOT of quests at level on elite and its not hard to think an easier way. Its like doing Monastery and seeing people jump the spike traps as i go to the other side where there is none that leads to the same place.

    Trap xp is a nice little boost, but so isnt an xp pot or getting ransack. I dont figure in trap xp when i level, but i do buy rogues only for the trap xp if the xp is actually that good. Otherwise, i deal without it. Getting no trap xp while leveling isnt going to feel any less grindy or feel any less slower to level.

    Death happens fairly often in pug groups. 6 different builds, experience and playstyles come together to achieve 1 goal. The flawless xp is bonus xp and with all the extra boosts we have now, most people have moved past it. There will be some that cant survive trap damage, but hopefully they learned a lesson in it.

  17. #57
    Community Member Tallyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    If healing him results in the overall damage output being lower than just letting him die, then let him die.
    If not, then suck it up and play the class you picked.

    So tired of childish divines who refuse to heal others. It's pretty cool that you can do 50% of the damage of real damage dealing classes, but that doesn't remove your job as the healer. Wanna be a big time battle -cleric-, then remember that you're still a -cleric-.

    You definitely don't see rogues sitting around *****ing about how everyone else should be able to do traps. And you'd be singing a whole different tune if the rogue was the only trap-able class and you were doing a dungeon with unavoidable traps.

    Wands are completely inefficient. They remove your ability to do damage, and essentially only make use in healing between battles. Potions lose effectiveness as a battle-remedy past level 8-10, then serve as the same function as wands. Heal scrolls require huge investment even after a rogue or arti splash or a half-elf dilly, both of which cause huge sacrifices to builds and in every case lower the damage the classes can deal. Heal scrolls also cannot be quickened, lower DPS entirely while switched, and aren't realistically a sustaining tool while in fights which 100+ shots being thrown out.
    I dont think it's necessarily about refusing to heal others but about not being a drain on the party. It's about a team effort and everyone needs to contribute. Don't become a burden.

    That being said, my main is a Rogue. I do damage, I do traps, I do back up healing, I rez people when needed, I tank certain bosses when needed, I can even main heal on certain tank types with good healing amp.

    Heal scrolls are not a huge investment, and when I restock I usually pick up 300 to 400 of them. I also try to carry 100 Resurrect and 100 Raise dead scrolls as well. Yes my DPS goes down when I have to do something outside DPS, but I don't care. I do whatever the situation needs, and if I can prevent a group member from dying I do so. I'm maxxed out in ShadowDancer, with around 80% fortification bypass, so I do get sneak attacks nearly all the time, so my DPS doesn't suck either.

  18. #58
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    I did not say heal scrolls are a huge investment, but to actively use them during fights is both risky in terms of effective healing and cuts the DPS of anyone using them. When you have a divine in the party, they can heal far mpre efficiently.

    Someone said people commonly die in pugs? I don't know what pugs you're running, but through the leveling 1-20 process and the 20-25 process very few people die, but I suppose that's because I know how to play a divine.

    Traps, while possible to dodge some of them, have huge latency issues that translates into dying when no-where near them, being hit by things that have already passed/not happened yet, and other issues. Also, there are traps you simply cannot avoid, or are extremely hard to avoid since latency plays a huge key factor in avoiding them.

    An example of such a trap is von5. Good luck getting past that with no evasion and HP ranges where you cannot survive a single hit. Even if you do manage to get past, you aren't doing it 6 times in a row.

  19. #59
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Argo.
    Melee based divines will do 50% of the damage, IF THAT, of any -real- melee build. In fact some of you even admit it, though add a clause that such a player is hard to find.

    Evokers will never be able to keep up with arcanes in raw damage or instant-killing, and their only caveat that makes them useful beyond an arcane is the ability to effectively heal parties.

    These statements are fact. You cannot lie to numbers.

    As to the statement on traps. Unless you're running with an entire group of friends - in which case *****ing about healing is hardly a point - you're going to run with players who cannot survive the traps unless you disable them. Sure you can res them, run through, accept, lose 10% exp, another 15% because you don't have a trapper, and take significantly longer to level.

    To Enclair, I find it adorable that you suggest the quests that appear once you get blade barrier, possibly the only instance where you'll ever be capable of doing things faster than a melee. That niche area right when you get the spell, divine's are indeed powerful, but before and after they're garbage if their attitude is: Heal yourself, I do big damage!
    The thing is......... 50% less damaga.... whatever but at the end of the day who needs who more to complete? The divines can complete a lot of quests on their own, or in byoh groups and even if its longer it might be less stressful than risk having to deal with rude demanding people, if you need something from someone doesn't it pay to at least be polite? I can understand why a lot of divines get reluctant to pug with the attitude a lot of people have towards them. I would rather do a quest with nice new don't know the game players and fail than do a whole chain super fast and have to put up with some obnoxious arrogant prick the whole way through but that's just me/

    Parties go smoother when all respect each other and try to work together to complete. And divines can stuff this up by being uncooperative but melee and arcanes or whatever class and build can be just as guilty as well.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 03-22-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Davelfus's Avatar
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    Would love to know which game you guys are playing...

    just tring, doing elite streaks...

    350 disintegrate dmg from a beholder at von3 on a lucky roll 1
    150 polar ray dmg (after 30pt resist) from ice flensers on invaders
    getting SA dmg and crits even with 100% fort
    getting hit alot more due to AC changes
    not even going to touch the trap dmg....

    so... you want to tell ppl that hp doesn't matter?
    well if you run with a full party and don't mind being raised back... i guess it doesn't matter...

    soloing or shortmaning? hope you have rly nice tools, tatics AND HP to take that kind of dmg and finish the quest.

    you can always roll a one,
    get some lag,
    or get unlucky with your tatic (hey... they can always save your stun at the wrong time
    without hp is gameover pal

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