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  1. #21
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickwall View Post
    Hp may not be everything but its a good place to start your inspection.
    Did you actually read any of the posts in the thread (including the first post)? Or did you just read the thread's title?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evennote View Post
    As someone who's gotten to experience three sides of this argument - my epic-level toons include a 25 pally with 1100+ HP, 130-ish AC, 122 PRR, and a ridiculous amount of heal amp; a 23 trapmonkey rogue with around 475 HP; and a 24 cleric who lives in the middle ground between healbot and battle cleric - it's definitely WAY more about game smarts than about HP.

    HP is kind of like ship buffs. It's great, and the more you have, the better. But it's no substitute for knowing how to play your toon. When I'm on my cleric, I'd much rather have the squishy rogue who sneaks around, doesn't hesitate to drink cure pots, knows how to manage aggro, and takes advantage of my aura than the 1000+ HP barb with no heal amp or AC who aggros everything and expects me to sit there and do nothing but keep his red bar full... while he runs all over so he's out of range or blocked when I DO try to heal him.

    *Every* player, regardless of class, should make a serious effort to make their toons as survivable as possible. Health items, heal amp, AC, PRR, cure/curse/etc. pots - if it gives you a better chance to still be alive at the end and/or helps keep you from using up the party's resources, DO IT. You never know when the cleric or caster or tank will DC, leaving you with no heals, or no CC, or the aggro of a dozen very angry giants.
    Since I know she won't toot her own horn, Even recently had a blog post on this very subject, and showed a greater level of mercy/tolerance than the OP, although I think both have pragmatic benefits to try to keep the offending player as engaged with the party as possible.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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  3. #23
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    In my first life, I had really low HP up to about 15-17. Like <200. I also had the ability to cast Heal x5 per rest thanks to Dragonmarks and an AC around 50 (which was good for most of the mid level quests) and evasion. I didn't die a lot, unless I was with squishy bags of HP chars and made the mistake of trying to heal them with my very limited healing resources. (Then I'd have nothing for myself when I got hit in the face.)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Did you actually read any of the posts in the thread (including the first post)? Or did you just read the thread's title?
    I read the OP. It was a boring story that should have been condensed down to "Learn how to play or hang out in the backpack". Less time, less bandwidth, less attitude.

  5. #25
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikkitikkitarvi View Post
    Sounds to me like he plays solo a lot and is used to having a Hireling Cleric tied to his back.

    I find the more I play solo and have a hireling the less self managing I become.
    I go about with a cleric hireling on my sorc (saves me money; heal scrolls are expensive even with haggle+guild vendor) but that doesn't mean I expect a nanny in a party. My sorc has this thing that this "rogue" should have too: UMD

    Sorcs and high HP's don't really go hand in hand so I roll heal/CCW scrolls, CSW wands/pots and whatever, especially in raids because obviously, I'm not in the middle of the melees which is where the heals will land 99% of the time. Two of my bars look like cleric bars with all those divine spells on them.

    Also, I don't stand about and wait for stuff to land on my face unless I know I can stand about. Another nice thing to do is knowing when to pull back but that guy wants to be healed through damage... such a nice sponge, isn't he? Sponges belong in the backpack.

    Take that rogue to FoT (for example) and let's see how many times he manages to die in one hit

    Sounds like a serious case of bad player...
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  6. #26
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickwall View Post
    Hp may not be everything but its a good place to start your inspection.
    And what, pray tell, is it going to show? There are people in this game with ample hit points... and ample other stats to boot. You have NO IDEA whether that sack of meat is simply a sack of meat or if it has some bones underneath as well.

    The nice thing about low hp sacks of meat is that they die quickly and DON'T use up as much spell points or resources as a really beefy sack of meat.

    As you can tell, I have a lot to say about this particular subject, and its fast becoming one of my pet peeves. I've been leveling my TR'd cleric the last few levels before cap, and I find I die much more often than I do on my other characters, simply because everyone is expecting ME to babysit them and NO ONE is babysitting me. I get caught trying to help others while they are ensuring my demise.

    I'll flip a few Divine Punishments at a boss (red or purple) and lo-and-behold, the sacks of meat are doing NO DAMAGE whatsoever, and I'm caught healing myself, kiting a boss, and healing everyone else who is taking damage while doing NO DAMAGE whatsoever.

    You complain about 222 hp rogues. I'll complain about everyone (almost) else.
    Last edited by Raithe; 03-11-2013 at 10:07 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    I had a lfm for elite lords of dust up two guys had already joined..... then this fighter with 6 levels of rogue joins he had around 350 or so hp... immediately the other two drop group don't even say anything just leave.... that fighter rogue buffs then switches some gear around and hes now just over 400, I think he had his haggle gear and other stuff on? Anyway we complete and this guy didn't die and he also disable our traps for us. I did send one of those guys who dropped group asking what was up, and he told me if I was letting people like that into my group good luck? I think they just saw the fighter icon and 350 hp at level 16?

  8. #28
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    . such a nice sponge, isn't he? Sponges belong in the backpack.

    .
    Do you know what the Romans use to use sponges for?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 03-12-2013 at 12:03 AM.

  9. #29
    Community Member MrChipinator's Avatar
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    C-c-con is a dump stat?

    Right?
    Thal and co.

  10. #30
    Community Member Ballyspringer's Avatar
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    I fully agree with the O/P, you dont need to have a ton of HP (as long as you have enough to not be 2-3 shot) but if your on the low end of the HP spectrum play accordingly!

    I do also want to throw in the other side of the conversation, which is whenever I see someone with more than around 1.3k hp they generally end up being a complete waste of a spot too. How many Pally and Fighter "tanks" do you see with only 30ish str trying desperately to hold agro on bosses and who are completely worthless on trash? (Yes there are exceptions of high HP and good dps, but in general.) When I'm on my barb/rogue with 80+ str, with no +incite items using both treason and a negative 20% incite item and I'm pulling agro left and right from a dedicated "tank", Houston we have a problem. (And yes I do have a tank and understand how hard it can be to gear up and get right.)

    HP is important, playstyle and knowing your toon's limitations are even more important, but being able to truly help your party for the whole quest is the most important (besides having fun of course )
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  11. #31
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballyspringer View Post
    I fully agree with the O/P, you dont need to have a ton of HP (as long as you have enough to not be 2-3 shot) but if your on the low end of the HP spectrum play accordingly!

    I do also want to throw in the other side of the conversation, which is whenever I see someone with more than around 1.3k hp they generally end up being a complete waste of a spot too. How many Pally and Fighter "tanks" do you see with only 30ish str trying desperately to hold agro on bosses and who are completely worthless on trash? (Yes there are exceptions of high HP and good dps, but in general.) When I'm on my barb/rogue with 80+ str, with no +incite items using both treason and a negative 20% incite item and I'm pulling agro left and right from a dedicated "tank", Houston we have a problem. (And yes I do have a tank and understand how hard it can be to gear up and get right.)

    HP is important, playstyle and knowing your toon's limitations are even more important, but being able to truly help your party for the whole quest is the most important (besides having fun of course )
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer. I sent the leader a tell, thinking he may have misclicked or something. He said that if I had that many HP (I think he had around 730-740 at that time) I must have neglected everything else.

    I told him I was a level 4 Unyielding Sentinel and he replied, "So?"
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer. I sent the leader a tell, thinking he may have misclicked or something. He said that if I had that many HP (I think he had around 730-740 at that time) I must have neglected everything else.

    I told him I was a level 4 Unyielding Sentinel and he replied, "So?"
    That's kinda funny considering my lvl 24 elf cleric has 10 or 12 base con and has i think 738 hp b4 ship buffs when in sentinel. I guess the ppl who booted you were looking for 300 hp clerics.
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  13. #33
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer.
    Heh, I did a sorc life and being 36pt was able to max cha and con. Add to that greensteel HP etc. At one point I was asked how many toughness feats I had taken. Just the one ofc.

  14. #34
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default My healers

    First yes tactics mean way more than hit points.
    As for getting classes to 20 I only have monk who is 16 at this time.
    Sorc who is 15 holding 16. Pally 10 and Barb 12.
    All others I have gotten to 20 or above.
    Refuse to run any of my TR's until those last 4 are done.
    My healer's Bio reads.
    Hmo Cleric.
    Run alone die alone.
    Wands and spells have limited range will not chase you to heal you.
    I keep space in my pack for soul stones.
    Can't heal stupid.
    So if I am told by a person who keeps going down and they say "That is how I play."
    I say did you read my Bio that is how I play.
    I do keep the eternal cure light wounds wand from the Cats for those folks.
    They also never get more than a raise dead.
    You have already lost any xp advantage after the 1st death so more really doesn't matter.
    Not all who wander are lost. I am not lost, I am just exploring.
    Smigit F25 (Leg Dread 5), Xappit w20 (tr), Tamix C20,Smigitjr Tmp R 22, Tamik 14 P (3rd life,) , Xsong bard 20, Smigit5 arti 21, Xappet 20 AA, Smigit6 D22 (fw2), Tamok Fvs 20 Smoxfeat monk 16 Taggem Wf Pally 14 others. Leader Circle of Destruction Argonnessen

  15. #35
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    On the flip side of that, when my cleric was level 20 he got accepted then immediately booted from an EE Chrono even though they were looking for a healer. I sent the leader a tell, thinking he may have misclicked or something. He said that if I had that many HP (I think he had around 730-740 at that time) I must have neglected everything else.

    I told him I was a level 4 Unyielding Sentinel and he replied, "So?"
    I'd be willing to bet he did you a favor by removing you from that run. Very doubtful they completed, if they did it was very slow and painful.
    Proud member of Renowned, Thelanis server.

  16. #36
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    I agree with the general sentiment here - Having hp can be good, but knowing how to play a character well is more important, imo, than having super-high hp.

    I was one of the rogues Spencerian talks about on that EE run. The two rogues in that quest run used sneak, bluff pulls, assassinate, sneak attack damage, scrolls with our UMD, and our ability to stay out of primary aggro on that run to help the party as best we could.

    The points here for anyone who wants to be a better player have been repeated over-and-over.

    First, your hp total needs to be enough that you can take 2-3 shots, or one massive crit, and still live. Remember, everyone rolls a 1 at some point.

    Healing amp, AC, fortification, PRR and dodge bonuses come into play next to help make those hp as effective as possible. Having those on appropriate characters can make the healer's job simpler to do by healing more on each pass, and mitigate a lot of damage so you survive longer when aggro'd by a group of mobs or a hard-hitting boss.

    Finally, and most important in my book, learn to play the character well and within it's limitations. After all, and the great god Clint has said, "A char's got to know it's limitations!"
    There is no free lunch.

  17. #37

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    HP has some meaning, I thinks, but is trumped by so much: good defenses, smart play, skill, tactics.

    When I'm on my healer I groan only in a few situations.

    In order of annoyance, most annoying to least:

    - Reckless Vet player of any HP level that runs off out of my range, gets in trouble and then complains they are taking damage without heals coming in or have died. Don't try and put your over-confident error on me.

    - Reckless Newb player of any HP level that runs off out of my range, gets in trouble and then complains they are taking damage without heals coming in or have died. Don't try and put you underestimating of the game on me.

    - Reckless, high HP, no defense types who will kill my blue bar. Especially painful are the no-healer-friend WF who don't self heal and have no damage mitigation. Honestly, I won't stay in group with this type long, so sorry party leader, but the frustration of healing a perpetually crumbling brick wall drains away my fun as well as my SP even though i could make it too the shrine if I changed my whole everything to deal with you and your thing.

    - Reckless, low HP types who go lower then 50% with a single hit without the means to avoid getting hit. These types health is ALWAYS a crisis if it's not at full. This makes me have to change my whole thing to deal with your thing because I have to watch out for you like you were a small, vulnerable child. I can't stray off to kill something or heal the reckless type listed above without risking you taking two hits in a row and dieing. I really don't understand how these people could be having fun either unless the specter of death looming at all times is exciting to them. I assure you that specter of death is NOT fun for me on a healer because I take each death as a failure on my part to not overcome your failings in character building (even though I know I should just not worry about deaths all the time - I still do)

    - Effective types that demand constant attention. Ok, I get it - you're blitzing or whatever and kicking butt. I'll deal and follow you around and Hjeal you because you are effective and being effective is good. After awhile though I get sick of just being your support. (I especially 'love' when blitzsers want EVERYONE in the party to support their awesomeness by 'setting up' mobs to kill and not killing anything themselves ). In a raid? fine. EE? fine. But if we are farming EH or running some dumb thing then let me have some fun too. This is very small on the annoyance meter compared to the above examples though because it's hard to get annoyed at someone killing stuff well.

    - Everyone else.

    I realize some builds will need more attention then others and some builds are more vulnerable then others and will deal with that. I'm a healer. That's what i do.

    But if you make me change my game to the point where I'm really just a support player for you or your personal hireling then I say no and find another group after the quest is over.

    Build your character however you want but realize you are responsible for yourself and don't be surprised when healers refuse to watch you like a hawk or refuse to spend multiple spells on you when one works for everyone else - unless you really bring something special to the table.

    tl:dr
    A bad high HP player is the worst because they will kill your SP.
    A bad low HP player is right behind because they need a nanny.
    A bad anything else is third.
    A good low HP player is far, far better than any of the above.
    A good high HP player is ideal.

    Skill more better then HP.

    Play how you want. Allow me to do the same, which may involve something other then your HP bar.
    .
    Last edited by phillymiket; 03-21-2013 at 04:18 AM.
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  18. #38
    Community Member badbob117's Avatar
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    hp is old news, Now it is all about electric absorb! with 184 hp and 40000% electric absorb you should be good to go... woot woot
    Born to play, Forced to work !

  19. #39
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    There are far too many "oooh, we have a Healer, lets ignore tactics" nugget heads that play (of any HP amount)


    In this instance it was a Rogue - Ive never played one personally but the class def has more than its fair share of people that make the class look bad sadly.


    When played well they are superb - we have a Rogue in Guild that is quite simply remarkable - when Im on my Cleric in either EH or EE questing, I can virtually ignore his red bar. He ghosts around doing his job and rarely gets touched. I have no idea how he does it.

  20. #40
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    i can tell you i tire of people like this as well. ran at level von 5 raid on elite with my tr being only divine in it. it had some deaths of course but 2 people just kept dying over and over and over. between those 2 18 deaths. either die in lava then die in same lava again or running back and forth through the electricity. after a while i just stopped resurrecting them.

    in fact i refused too. they kept demanding to be resurrected but didnt understand at all why i said no. see that type of ignorance well always make me feel sometimes i dont want to be a nanny ever. my entire life as a cleric tr i do byoh because im tired of being a nanny to people like this. even a guildmate wanted me to heal him. i told him to suck it up :P im not his personal nanny either.

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