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  1. #1
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Default HP does not mean everything...

    ...But if you don't have a lot of HP, you'd better know how to manage aggro and mitigate incoming damage.

    If you don't have a lot of HP, and you don't know how to manage aggro or mitigate incoming damage, AND you don't want to listen to any suggestions from the rest of the party, my cleric is going to let you die. If you literally need a heal every five seconds or you're going to die, you're going to die.


    Running elite Vale quests today with my level 18 dwarven battle cleric. A level 18 elven rogue joins with 222 hit points (my cleric has 542 HP). As we start questing (6-man group) the elven rogue needs a heal every few seconds to keep from dying. I try to keep up, thinking maybe he just rolled a bunch of 1's in a row or something; everyone can have a bad run of luck.

    As we continue, it becomes apparent that the rogue (whose play style is to jump into the middle of every melee and start swinging - I don't think I saw him sneak once) is going to need a heal every five seconds or so throughout the quest to stay alive. I mentioned the possibility of him waiting until the fighter or the barbarian got aggro and then perhaps backstabbing someone, but he kept saying "this is how I play." He had at least one TR. I also suggested that he stay a bit closer to me so my aura could keep him healed, but he said that's not how he plays. Finally I stopped raising him and dropped his stone at the shrine when we got there, and then (when he died moments later) I carried his stone in my backpack. He was not happy, even though I tried to explain (as politely as I could) that if he doesn't want to manage aggro at all and as a result he literally needs a heal every five seconds to keep from dying, then he's not worth the mana cost to the party and is better off as a soul stone.

    A rogue in my guild had 309 HP at level 20 (before the cap went to 25) and he hardly even seemed to get hit in epics, much less die. He'd sneak around, killing the casters, rarely needing a heal. If you know how to play, low HP are not a problem. If you don't know how to play, tons of HP will make up for that to some degree.

    In my opinion, if your playstyle includes a cleric following you constantly, spamming heals at you every few seconds, without which you die very quickly, there's a problem. You don't necessarily need to reroll, but you do need to learn how to manage aggro and in general get a bit better at playing the game, rather than just running forward and swinging your weapons.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    ...But if you don't have a lot of HP, you'd better know how to manage aggro and mitigate incoming damage.

    If you don't have a lot of HP, and you don't know how to manage aggro or mitigate incoming damage, AND you don't want to listen to any suggestions from the rest of the party, my cleric is going to let you die. If you literally need a heal every five seconds or you're going to die, you're going to die.


    Running elite Vale quests today with my level 18 dwarven battle cleric. A level 18 elven rogue joins with 222 hit points (my cleric has 542 HP). As we start questing (6-man group) the elven rogue needs a heal every few seconds to keep from dying. I try to keep up, thinking maybe he just rolled a bunch of 1's in a row or something; everyone can have a bad run of luck.

    As we continue, it becomes apparent that the rogue (whose play style is to jump into the middle of every melee and start swinging - I don't think I saw him sneak once) is going to need a heal every five seconds or so throughout the quest to stay alive. I mentioned the possibility of him waiting until the fighter or the barbarian got aggro and then perhaps backstabbing someone, but he kept saying "this is how I play." He had at least one TR. I also suggested that he stay a bit closer to me so my aura could keep him healed, but he said that's not how he plays. Finally I stopped raising him and dropped his stone at the shrine when we got there, and then (when he died moments later) I carried his stone in my backpack. He was not happy, even though I tried to explain (as politely as I could) that if he doesn't want to manage aggro at all and as a result he literally needs a heal every five seconds to keep from dying, then he's not worth the mana cost to the party and is better off as a soul stone.

    A rogue in my guild had 309 HP at level 20 (before the cap went to 25) and he hardly even seemed to get hit in epics, much less die. He'd sneak around, killing the casters, rarely needing a heal. If you know how to play, low HP are not a problem. If you don't know how to play, tons of HP will make up for that to some degree.

    In my opinion, if your playstyle includes a cleric following you constantly, spamming heals at you every few seconds, without which you die very quickly, there's a problem. You don't necessarily need to reroll, but you do need to learn how to manage aggro and in general get a bit better at playing the game, rather than just running forward and swinging your weapons.
    I think you maybe coddled him too long. After the second or third "this is how I play" you should've said "fine, but how you play is wasting my mana, so you can either modify your play style just this once or sit in my backpack for the rest of the quest". That way he has a fair warning to quit being a phallus.

  3. #3
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    LOL.
    You and your PSA stories.

  4. #4
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    Default Playstyle vs. Hp total

    AGREE AGREE AGREE!!! I've been lucky in the fact that I've been able to play most of the character classes up to level 10 or so. They all do not play the same way. What works for a sorc is not the same that works for a monk that works for a bard. Yes you can play the way you want but you have to figure out what is going to be effective running solo as well as what you can do in a group.

    No class and build are not exactly the same thing. I've seen rogues jump into the middle of a huge pile of mobs, drop a firewall (with no caster levels), and then tumble in circles until everything was dead. I've seen barbs not go into frenzy because there was no healing source other than potions and STILL rage mobs to death.

    So moral of the stories is have enough hit points to play your style. High saves, high dodge, high PRR, and High AC all give that hp total a chance to go lower vs. mobs. However you still need to have enough hit points to take 2-3 good shots from the end boss and live.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Having wings means nothing these days.
    Should have told him the first time he died to listen to you or to play like he wants and heal himself because you wont be wasting sp if he doesnt know how to not get hit.

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I don't know.

    I was in CC on L30 runs earlier this morning and was the player with the least HP. Was involved in most of the combats including all the orange and red named. Did not die a single time. Yet, the paladin who had one of the highest HP totals in the group died in each run, twice in one of them.

    So, maybe, it isn't about HP but about effective use of the character.

    The advice about aggro management seems like it applies regardless of HP.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Maybe he was an AC/PRR tank in his past life and is having a past life regression ...

    As the primary healer of the group, it is one of your responsibilities to make sure the party (not an individual) has more than 0 HP so they can stay effective. As individuals in a Party it is each our own responsibility that we keep ourselves above 0 HP so we can be effective, as well as using our skills to the best of the parties needs.

    When someone informs me that "that's the way I play", I will happily let them know the same thing after I've determined that they are not a benefit to completion. I will raise them at the end for the chest, in the meantime they can enjoy the ride or not. I'm not sure if there is any ale left in my pack, especially if Hordo has been there recently.

  8. #8
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Finally I stopped raising him and dropped his stone at the shrine when we got there, and then (when he died moments later) I carried his stone in my backpack. He was not happy
    Sounds like the time to tell him that this is how you play.

  9. #9
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Sounds like the rogue didnt know how to play a rogue and utilize a couple of the biggest strengths of the class. I will agree hp, high or low, doesnt matter. You are just as much of a burden to the group and mana drain if you dont know how to handle aggro and able to mitigate damage. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your class and using teamwork makes a considerable difference.

  10. #10

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    Sounds to me like he plays solo a lot and is used to having a Hireling Cleric tied to his back.

    I find the more I play solo and have a hireling the less self managing I become.

  11. #11
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikkitikkitarvi View Post
    Sounds to me like he plays solo a lot and is used to having a Hireling Cleric tied to his back.

    I find the more I play solo and have a hireling the less self managing I become.
    I solo with a hire a lot, but it doesnt mean i am used to it and expect constant healing in a group. It also doesnt mean i dont know how to be self sufficient. I dont always let my hire run along side me. I park them until i really need them or to get a free heal while i save my pots. If players actually expect the same thing from a live healer in a group, than they still have a lot more to learn.

  12. #12
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    A rogue in my guild had 309 HP at level 20 (before the cap went to 25) and he hardly even seemed to get hit in epics, much less die. He'd sneak around, killing the casters, rarely needing a heal.
    ......... If you are talking about who I think you are, there is a reason we called the "number of deaths in the party" a belcurve.

    That rogue used to die... a LOT. But I agree, due to game mechanic changes, and the player learning a bit more, the rogue doesn't die as much as she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    If you know how to play, low HP are not a problem.
    Really that is dependent upon the quest difficulty. There are some quests, if you don't have the HP, you are just going to die no matter what.


    Personal comment about my annoyance with clerics who have auras coming from a meleer you are trying to keep alive:
    1. Keep your aura on. I'd rather get healed up by that than ask you to blow SP to heal me.
    2. STAND STILL after a fight. I'm trying to heal up in your aura.

  13. #13
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    Default hp

    Well said. +1.

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  14. #14
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    And to tack on my personal note to this thread. If you do have a lot of HP, but still can't manage aggro/mitigate damage properly then my FVS would like to suggest you look into what this mythical thing called 'heal amp' is. Sure, you may take longer to get in my backpack, but sooner or later you'll be hanging out there with the rogue. SP sinks come in all shapes, but tend to end up in the same place.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    On another note....

    Joined an elite ritual Sacrifice run on my Wizard.

    We started without a healer....

    One guy dies. (no relation to his HP)
    I have one res clickie so I res him.

    Hmmm... he isn't drinking any pots.... and no one else is healing him....
    So I cast GH on him, Blur, Stoneskin..... Rage....

    He later dies again.... I take him to the shrine....

    I watch this guy and keep him GHed and Raged over and over again.... cause he has no HP otherwise....

    finally I think a Pallie joins us....
    and I think he finally gives this guy some healing.

    I think the Pallie could res as well.


    Moral of this story?
    Bring some pots......lol

    No complaints about HP or even playstyle here.... just that the guy has zero self healing ability.....

    This never ceases to amaze me.....

    Oh... and the second moral.....

    Talon will continue to help you however my toon can.... even if you are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #16

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    Well said!

    Gameplay, more than gear or class, can determine the ultimate success of a party. After all, isn't it a matter of how WE play to complete the quest, rather than how "I" play? Play to your class/race skills. Taking point and tanking are two different things. And how you play (badly) can take away from how others get to play.

    Rogues seem to get no love, but I'll give them LOTS. I was in a guild-run Epic Elite "Portal Opens" recently with Syncletica, my main Monk and a character you'd think I'd know how to use, carefully. I get my body parts handed back to me in the first ten seconds of that thing.

    Meanwhile, two Rogues take point, one an assassin. They use Shadowdancer charming and bluff and assassinate and just lay waste to that quest. Only at the end fight did things go back to a conventional "melees save the day" mode, to a point.

    I'm totally with soulstone carrying for selfish players with bad gameplay. Our guild loves to link those into our chats and ask for a few coppers for "trade." We don't get many bids.
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  17. #17
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    Sometimes clerics can run awful slow, forget to slot res because they carry scrolls, and mysteriously run out of scrolls.

    Just sayin'.
    Cannith, Slicing Blow. Vilenna (18/1/1 Clonkard), Marvala (20 monk), Phrenia (19/1 rogue/fighter), Malchara (12/6/2 AA), Denaria (18/2 ...wonk?)

  18. #18
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandypaws View Post
    Sometimes clerics can run awful slow, forget to slot res because they carry scrolls, and mysteriously run out of scrolls.

    Just sayin'.
    I "ran out of scrolls" once and then got hollered at when I raised another player's character later in the same quest.

  19. #19
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    As someone who's gotten to experience three sides of this argument - my epic-level toons include a 25 pally with 1100+ HP, 130-ish AC, 122 PRR, and a ridiculous amount of heal amp; a 23 trapmonkey rogue with around 475 HP; and a 24 cleric who lives in the middle ground between healbot and battle cleric - it's definitely WAY more about game smarts than about HP.

    HP is kind of like ship buffs. It's great, and the more you have, the better. But it's no substitute for knowing how to play your toon. When I'm on my cleric, I'd much rather have the squishy rogue who sneaks around, doesn't hesitate to drink cure pots, knows how to manage aggro, and takes advantage of my aura than the 1000+ HP barb with no heal amp or AC who aggros everything and expects me to sit there and do nothing but keep his red bar full... while he runs all over so he's out of range or blocked when I DO try to heal him.

    *Every* player, regardless of class, should make a serious effort to make their toons as survivable as possible. Health items, heal amp, AC, PRR, cure/curse/etc. pots - if it gives you a better chance to still be alive at the end and/or helps keep you from using up the party's resources, DO IT. You never know when the cleric or caster or tank will DC, leaving you with no heals, or no CC, or the aggro of a dozen very angry giants.
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  20. #20
    Community Member brickwall's Avatar
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    Hp may not be everything but its a good place to start your inspection.
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