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  1. #81
    Community Member gphysalis's Avatar
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    I was in a tor run, where we played: everyone killsteals from the melee because he has no instakills. Was a pretty fun tor run on my cleric. The melee guy ended up with a kill, just due to being in the right place at the right time.
    Last edited by gphysalis; 03-24-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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  2. #82
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    Pro tip, you can vorpal giants.

    All barbarians naturally, even without toughness, have high hitpoints. I've seen casters under 260, the base a 20 barb gives you. This is their defense, nothing else beyond kiting which every class employs. Kiting is inefficient as the damage you deal is significantly lowered, but not only that the damage your allies deal is also mitigated.

    Barbarians pull insane damage and have a huge hitpoint pool, amp doesn't come naturally but obviously any decent barbarian is going to have some slotted or built into their character. They have no other defenses, they require SF pots or external healing, and SF pots require quite a bit of character building and favor farming. It's not hard to get or build around, but I know I'd rather have a healer than a potion.

    And it's simple fact that a barbarian allowed to sit on mobs full DPS is going to do far more than a barbarian trying to scrape by on mobs with a divine whacking away. In a perfect world a divine should be able to keep his party healed while pulling 80% of the damage he'd deal if he focuses entirely on damage, which, in the end is more than a barbarian and a nanny-bot divine. But from what I've seen from the majority of players, they either refuse to heal because they (a) fall under the im too good and protentious to heal you BYOH (b) are physically incapable of multitasking the two actions (c) i dont know, roleplay reasons?

    Personally I feel the majority of divines fall under B, they can't hack the prospect of maintaining focus on positioning for heals, dealing optimal damage, and not letting people die who get spiked all while watching health bars. It's also a decision making process of when to start your heals. That's fine, but don't pretend it's because you're so much better than that pure fighter who is (probably) new to the game looking for heals and he (probably) didn't even know what BYOH meant.

    When I said a barb does 300% the damage of a divine, I meant a melee divine, and I meant a melee divine going all out. Archon, DP, etc. 300% is probably on the low end, in any case.

  3. #83
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    A pure barb will down rwd faster than you can without stun if something keeps him alive. Both your instant-kill route and your BB damage route will have a hard time getting through the dungeon in a timely manner.

    Melee divines often lack the damage in elite to burn through the healing.

    Soundburst the groups, heal the damage dealers. Simple solution to make the quest go as smoothly and quickly as possible. But everyone who plays this game feels the need to try and do damage at the cost of things that naturally they are more efficient at. This isn't a problem, it's when you let your desire or need to do damage sabotage a group because you don't want to heal a pure barb.

    Also, seriously? You don't like barbs? They have huge HP pools, high amp, and a single heal throws them to full. They also do 300% of your damage at the cost of not being able to heal themselves/others. What's not to like? It's, literally, one of the perfect matches for a divine in groups.
    Most barbs have high hp but most barbs don't know what healing amp is or where to get it except for pdk gloves. Barbs tend to have no defense other than hp. I've seen barbs where if I didn't spam heal on them every cd with some cure crits thrown in they would die. Most pugger barbs are the biggest sp sinks you will ever find. There are some good ones, ones with hamp, blurry ghostly ext. But they are not your common barb. And no melee dps will ever equal instant killing, even if it takes them only 3 swings that means it took them longer. There are many times melee dps are great to have, however that quest is one where your top dps class is a penalty to the quest.

  4. #84
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    Fairly certain a barb agroing an entire dungeon and killing it with cleave is more efficient than running through a dungeon fingering and wailing. The old wail, it may be quicker, but you still had to slop up the things that didn't die and that was when PMs were in their prime. They've become crestfallen now because instantkilling is losing it's hold on endgame content.

    I don't have demanding requirements for the pug groups I make and I've never run into a barb that was a complete mana sink. In any case most of the time I'm mass healing myself while positioning to clip all of the melees and sometimes the casters and spot healing with heal(generally on myself as BB acts as an instant agro spike followed up by double cleaves) Even spamming these two spells is not enough to oom, even adding in the occasional mass which heals less and costs more mana as emergency spikes to keep people alive.

    All of the new content is just riddled with rest shrines everywhere, mana is hardly an issue when it comes to healing, even with someone causing me healing grief. But at the same time, that doesn't make me simply stop healing them, especially if they're doing decently well at killing things.

    30% healing amp is literally all you need with ship buffs to make mass heals hit for 600+, and that's low end spellpower without empowering. The fact PDK gloves are in the game should make any end game melee incredibly easy to heal as they're perfectly tailored for melee and add an incredible amount of amplification.

    Beyond that there are always bad players, but I'd rather have a bad melee any day than a stuck up divine who refuses to heal on the prognosis that their damage comes first.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Pro tip, you can vorpal giants.

    All barbarians naturally, even without toughness, have high hitpoints. I've seen casters under 260, the base a 20 barb gives you. This is their defense, nothing else beyond kiting which every class employs. Kiting is inefficient as the damage you deal is significantly lowered, but not only that the damage your allies deal is also mitigated.

    Barbarians pull insane damage and have a huge hitpoint pool, amp doesn't come naturally but obviously any decent barbarian is going to have some slotted or built into their character. They have no other defenses, they require SF pots or external healing, and SF pots require quite a bit of character building and favor farming. It's not hard to get or build around, but I know I'd rather have a healer than a potion.

    And it's simple fact that a barbarian allowed to sit on mobs full DPS is going to do far more than a barbarian trying to scrape by on mobs with a divine whacking away. In a perfect world a divine should be able to keep his party healed while pulling 80% of the damage he'd deal if he focuses entirely on damage, which, in the end is more than a barbarian and a nanny-bot divine. But from what I've seen from the majority of players, they either refuse to heal because they (a) fall under the im too good and protentious to heal you BYOH (b) are physically incapable of multitasking the two actions (c) i dont know, roleplay reasons?

    Personally I feel the majority of divines fall under B, they can't hack the prospect of maintaining focus on positioning for heals, dealing optimal damage, and not letting people die who get spiked all while watching health bars. It's also a decision making process of when to start your heals. That's fine, but don't pretend it's because you're so much better than that pure fighter who is (probably) new to the game looking for heals and he (probably) didn't even know what BYOH meant.

    When I said a barb does 300% the damage of a divine, I meant a melee divine, and I meant a melee divine going all out. Archon, DP, etc. 300% is probably on the low end, in any case.
    Alright then, but if we're going to make that fair then the Barb has to heal himself. No outside help.

    Now which has the highest DPS?

    The Divine who can DoT something big and nasty and keep out of range of damage for the most part?

    Or the Soulstone over there?

  6. #86
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    Barb with silver pots hands down.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Barb with silver pots hands down.
    You mean the Silver Flame pots which debuff you, making you more susceptible to damage, which in turn makes you need more healing?

    Those Silver Flame pots?

    Have you found a way to make those regen at a Shrine like a Divines Spell Points?

    For short bursts Silver Flame pots are excellent but for anything requiring a little endurance? Not so much.

  8. #88
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Most Barbarians in a quest by themselves with no support will kill individual enemies faster than a Cleric or FvS would, but the Cleric or FvS would still complete the quest faster because the Barbarian will spend 45 minutes refilling their own red bar throughout the quest.

    If there is already a Divine caster in the party, then adding a decent-ish Barbarian to the party will probably speed things up more than adding a second Divine to the party. In most cases, however, a Divine caster will bring more to the party than a Barbarian will. It's why so many people sit around waiting for a Cleric or FvS, but no one sits around to wait for a Barbarian (and rarely for a melee category at all, for that matter).

    It's one of the fundamental truths of DDO. "Support" characters don't need "DPS" characters, but "DPS" characters often need "Support" characters. "DPS" will do more damage per second than "Support" in many circumstances (and not even all circumstances), but that's often all they can do.

  9. #89
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Beyond that there are always bad players, but I'd rather have a bad melee any day than a stuck up divine who refuses to heal on the prognosis that their damage comes first.
    A Divine caster who refuses to cast spells for the benefit of the party *is* just a bad melee.

    Most of the time, however, Divine casters don't "refuse" to heal someone that needs it. They refuse to heal people who won't keep up with the party, or who keep running around corners to block line of sight, or who are generally not worth healing. Other circumstances certainly do occur, but it has been my experience that those three categories are the three biggest factors that lead to Divine casters refusing to hand out the Heals.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    Pro tip, you can vorpal giants.

    All barbarians naturally, even without toughness, have high hitpoints. I've seen casters under 260, the base a 20 barb gives you. This is their defense, nothing else beyond kiting which every class employs. Kiting is inefficient as the damage you deal is significantly lowered, but not only that the damage your allies deal is also mitigated.

    Barbarians pull insane damage and have a huge hitpoint pool, amp doesn't come naturally but obviously any decent barbarian is going to have some slotted or built into their character. They have no other defenses, they require SF pots or external healing, and SF pots require quite a bit of character building and favor farming. It's not hard to get or build around, but I know I'd rather have a healer than a potion.

    And it's simple fact that a barbarian allowed to sit on mobs full DPS is going to do far more than a barbarian trying to scrape by on mobs with a divine whacking away. In a perfect world a divine should be able to keep his party healed while pulling 80% of the damage he'd deal if he focuses entirely on damage, which, in the end is more than a barbarian and a nanny-bot divine. But from what I've seen from the majority of players, they either refuse to heal because they (a) fall under the im too good and protentious to heal you BYOH (b) are physically incapable of multitasking the two actions (c) i dont know, roleplay reasons?

    Personally I feel the majority of divines fall under B, they can't hack the prospect of maintaining focus on positioning for heals, dealing optimal damage, and not letting people die who get spiked all while watching health bars. It's also a decision making process of when to start your heals. That's fine, but don't pretend it's because you're so much better than that pure fighter who is (probably) new to the game looking for heals and he (probably) didn't even know what BYOH meant.

    When I said a barb does 300% the damage of a divine, I meant a melee divine, and I meant a melee divine going all out. Archon, DP, etc. 300% is probably on the low end, in any case.
    What? 300% of a melee divine? Seriously?

    Do you know what Epic Destinies have done to [proper, well-geared] melee builds (of any base class)?

    Have you sen any GOOD melee divines in action?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JUAd2Jyasg
    Ghallanda Server - Razaghan [Melee FvS 12 / Ranger 6 / Mnk 2] - Ignicia [Sorc 18 / Pal 2]

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azaghan View Post
    What? 300% of a melee divine? Seriously?

    Do you know what Epic Destinies have done to [proper, well-geared] melee builds (of any base class)?

    Have you sen any GOOD melee divines in action?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JUAd2Jyasg
    Nice vid. Thanks for posting that, I hadn't seen that one before.

    As much as I was defending Divines I have to admit that even I probably underestimated them a bit. I was thinking more along the lines of Spell DPS added on top of Melee DPS.

    But daym!

    That was impressive!

    By the way, just out of curiosity, was that an eAGA being used? Or am I confusing it with something else?

  12. #92
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    Yes for some stupid reason I was using eAGA instead of Cleaver + Prowess. My Cleaver wasn't yet upgraded back then and I guess I wanted to bypass Fire Reaver DR. I almost exclusively use Cleaver now, along with Skybreaker and eAGA only when DR is absolutely essential.
    Ghallanda Server - Razaghan [Melee FvS 12 / Ranger 6 / Mnk 2] - Ignicia [Sorc 18 / Pal 2]

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azaghan View Post
    Yes for some stupid reason I was using eAGA instead of Cleaver + Prowess. My Cleaver wasn't yet upgraded back then and I guess I wanted to bypass Fire Reaver DR. I almost exclusively use Cleaver now, along with Skybreaker and eAGA only when DR is absolutely essential.
    Thank you.

    Must admit, I've not been able to make a THF char, it just doesn't really appeal to me, even seeing stuff like that vid being pulled off. Good to watch though. I did make an eAGA a while ago (on my Hagglebard of all things) just to use up some of the Shards, Seals and Scrolls I'd been gathering. Good to see what kind of damage it can dish out with the proper build and gear, though my Hagglebard will never reach anything like that. To be fair though I didn't build it for that.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    A pure barb will down rwd faster than you can without stun if something keeps him alive. Both your instant-kill route and your BB damage route will have a hard time getting through the dungeon in a timely manner.

    Melee divines often lack the damage in elite to burn through the healing.

    Soundburst the groups, heal the damage dealers. Simple solution to make the quest go as smoothly and quickly as possible. But everyone who plays this game feels the need to try and do damage at the cost of things that naturally they are more efficient at. This isn't a problem, it's when you let your desire or need to do damage sabotage a group because you don't want to heal a pure barb.

    Also, seriously? You don't like barbs? They have huge HP pools, high amp, and a single heal throws them to full. They also do 300% of your damage at the cost of not being able to heal themselves/others. What's not to like? It's, literally, one of the perfect matches for a divine in groups.
    Lol you relize that if people dont play to fight they dont play at all right that is DDOs soul strength among the MMO genre, the second you start preaching some players sit back shut up and heal is the second your saying leave DDo, which only leads to that barb having NO ONE to heal him ever again. If I wanted to play a healer cleric id be on NWO when the divine itch comes up not DDO.

  15. #95
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    I did not say heal scrolls are a huge investment, but to actively use them during fights is both risky in terms of effective healing and cuts the DPS of anyone using them. When you have a divine in the party, they can heal far mpre efficiently.

    Someone said people commonly die in pugs? I don't know what pugs you're running, but through the leveling 1-20 process and the 20-25 process very few people die, but I suppose that's because I know how to play a divine.

    Traps, while possible to dodge some of them, have huge latency issues that translates into dying when no-where near them, being hit by things that have already passed/not happened yet, and other issues. Also, there are traps you simply cannot avoid, or are extremely hard to avoid since latency plays a huge key factor in avoiding them.

    An example of such a trap is von5. Good luck getting past that with no evasion and HP ranges where you cannot survive a single hit. Even if you do manage to get past, you aren't doing it 6 times in a row.

    yes people die in pugs all the time 1-25. i dont know where you have been or if you pug often. most of the time its new players who do die or a vet or failed a save or just wasnt paying attention. if you're too lazy to throw a heal scroll on yourself during a fight because oh god it slows your dps down then you do have issues. i see people do this all the time because mmm let me think they did it to be self sufficient. They didnt do it because oh noes my dps went down. a lot vet players like to have some sort of self healing because if they're in a byoh type of if a divine isnt near or even the divine dies.

    traps can be dodged if you know what to do. i would rather show people how to dodge then tell them hey keep running back and forth through it dying each time.
    Quote Originally Posted by HackSlashKill View Post
    BYOH - it is in every lfm I post. I am currently on my FVS life and had 2 clerics in the group. Guess what my lfm said BYOH. I didn't know the other two and they joined under the lfm saying BYOH. I didn't want to put healing duties on them. I love running a caster fvs. It is sooooo much fun, and the last thing I am doing, is watching your hit points. Heck, half the time I am not watching mine cause I am having so much fun.
    exactly i like to have fun and sure i might not do as much dps as a full on melee but my survivability is much higher then theirs. some of them die without someone constantly watching them. some are stuck on pnp days as well. Some forget hey this is a game and we all want fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    I'm sorry you can't seem to find players to run with whom are competent, but your experiences don't make classes weak. The fact you pulled off of a 'tank monk'(which assumes mountain + incite geared?) with a repeater is laughable.

    BB damage is absolutely horrid past 16. Try to run through RWD dropping BBs, the mobs will heal through it's damage and RWD is a joke of a quest.

    Divines are so far behind arcanes in terms of caster DPS comparing them would be pointless, and even with wail bugged they can't insta-kill as efficiently.

    Melee versions, while fun to play and quite self sufficient, are simply so far behind any real melee their damage is negligable. 50% is that of an average DPS, the number is probably more around 30% even with DP DoTs going. They used to make pretty good threat tanks before EDs came out, though.
    no one said anything about running with bb. any divine knows that wont work nor will any light spells. most of your responses have been very arrogant. you have such a hate that is really bad that makes people shun people like you. i dont care what the numbers say or what you think a divine should really do. this had nothing to do with the thread. it was all about hp and not byoh.

    while i did do my cleric tr life i did byoh groups every time. only time i ever refused people is when they demanded i heal them in a byoh. that defeats the purpose of the group. i had a variety of hp pools that joined me from level 1 to 20 that died or lived through their tactics.

    von3 120 hp caster only death was to a red named beholder. he did great other then that death.

    600hp monastery of elite tr dies 3-5 times. even though i was NEVER the actual healer i chose to keep him up because he did stay with me while we quested. he was never rude and did whatever his build did. only reason he was dying because his life couldnt keep up with the constant spamming of aoe. even after the quest he thanked us and left. there was a fvs cleric me, and even a druid in the party. So there was no lack of healing. the divine died a lot because sure their hp was a little low and couldnt survive the constant aoe.

    so my point is because your negative outlook on the game makes divine not want to pug because were not your nanny. no matter the hp a player has the disrespect will make those divine melee and solo more then you want. they might not be the best melee dps might not be best spell dps either but we can outlive many players if we know what were doing. we can solo raids or quests without the melee or anyone else. were called on to do many things while things can be bad. when there is a near wipe or a great run how often do you say thank you or reward those divine for doing such a great job?

    hp does matter to a point where you can survive a few hits and respect is a must if you want people to toss you heals.
    Last edited by arkonas; 03-25-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  16. #96
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Nor do you seem to grasp if your build depends on a healer, your build is utter gimp trash. Period. Nothing you can say can change that truth. If you NEED others its you who lack its that simple.

    Wolverine is better then say THe Thing not because he is stronger or hits harder, but because he cant be put down by things that will overwhelm the best among the rest.

    Hulk vs Thing hulk no contest, Hulk vs Wolverine, hell they make movies about such epic conflicts.

    Builds that do steady DPS and self heal always trump those extremist. Trying to apply the zerg need for speed to jusitfy your view only paints you as someone who doesnt really enjoy the game, just the false sense of accomplishment children tend to crave from them due to the trivial impact they have on the world around them.
    Especially when self-healing is very much available to any character that *chooses* to use it. Even Barbarians. They might have to drop out of Rage to use most of the self-healing that is available, but a Half Elf Barbarian is going to do significantly more DPS until the boosts run out than a Half Orc Barbarian will and the Half Elf Barbarian can throw Heal scrolls until the cows come home no matter how empty the Cleric/FvS blue bar is.

    The only characters that can't self-heal in DDO are the ones that deliberately choose to ignore that capability in the chase for a couple extra percent on top of their DPS. And even then, it's only an attempt to get that little bit of extra DPS because when you choose to give up the ability to self-heal effectively, you also lose any DPS that you would have had while you're running away from enemies or sitting on the floor as a soulstone.

    Also, The Thing is a much better superhero than Wolverine, because he can do useful things like carry tools for Mr. Fantastic or fly the Pogo Plane or whatever instead of just going off into the woods to mope like Wolverine.
    Last edited by HungarianRhapsody; 03-25-2013 at 11:51 AM.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorifyQuC View Post
    A pure barb will down rwd faster than you can without stun if something keeps him alive. Both your instant-kill route and your BB damage route will have a hard time getting through the dungeon in a timely manner.
    Post your barbie screenshot and I will eat my words, roll a cleric on your server and will be your hjealing dog female for a month
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  18. #98
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    We know it doesn't track quest times correctly after all, so will you accept the time posted per game any way?

    Or are you going to demand a video and post your own video as proof of your own time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Especially when self-healing is very much available to any character that *chooses* to use it. Even Barbarians. They might have to drop out of Rage to use most of the self-healing that is available, but a Half Elf Barbarian is going to do significantly more DPS until the boosts run out than a Half Orc Barbarian will and the Half Elf Barbarian can throw Heal scrolls until the cows come home no matter how empty the Cleric/FvS blue bar is.
    Horc does more dps easily. 6PA dmg, 4thf dmg, 3-4 str dmg, (13-14, applies to crits) compared to a possible 3d6(10.5 avg, doesn't apply to crits), but you're assuming heal scrolls so I'm assuming cleric dilly. Both have access to damage boost, and horc gets more boosts.

    Won't argue with better self-healing, mainly due to more rather than better options, though it's hardly efficient.
    1.1ship*1.1hum amp*1.1hum amp*1.2item*1.3item=2.07*110scroll=227 hp, every 6 seconds, interruptible.

    Silver Flame pots are significantly better, though still somewhat ineffective, and Horc gets them too. Horc: 1.1ship*1.2item*1.3item=1.71*250=429 hp, Helf: 1.1ship*1.1hum amp*1.1hum amp*1.2item*1.3item=2.07*250=517 hp, every 3 seconds(IIRC).

    Horc also has better tactics dcs for trip and sblow, which increases survivability that way.

    (For helf, can't fit in Sblow and Toughness, so lose a bit there too)

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Also, The Thing is a much better superhero than Wolverine, because he can do useful things like carry tools for Mr. Fantastic or fly the Pogo Plane or whatever instead of just going off into the woods to mope like Wolverine.
    BLASPHEMY! Say that to Wolverine's face in real life and not online and see what happens.

    Wolverine can fly the Blackbird...
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    We know it doesn't track quest times correctly after all, so will you accept the time posted per game any way?
    Ship buffs duration and no reentries in the screenshots are quite reliable time indicators, don't you agree ?
    Is ~ 25 minute completion with instakills and bbs in a "timely manner" ?
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

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