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  1. #41
    Community Member Uma-Quixote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    There are two errors here. First, "majority" does not equal "everyone." Second, "majority" of forum readers/posters (which is implicit if you read what I originally wrote) does not equal "majority" of players.

    There are still a large number of players using the TWF feat line. And, since we know the number of forum readers/posters is but a fraction of the player base, it probably is the case that the in-game numbers are pretty equal between TWF and THF. The only clear thing is that S&B is clearly the least common.

    FWIW, even if the "majority" of forum readers/posters settle on THF that does not make them right -- it just means there are more of them.

    IMO the debate on THF v TWF is actually much closer now than it was previously. It has always been the case that you could skew results one way or the other. But now, with the addition of ED, there are so many variables that it is hard to be definitive.

    This is why I try to couch what I say in terms of the OP. To other readers I would say the same thing -- you have to look at your character and what it has, not at theoretical numbers based on something you are not and might never be.
    +1 to you.

    The word majority is getting used a lot in this thread.

    For the majority of players?

    They probably don't actually care that much which is "best"

    Thats different to what the majority of endgame/min-maxers/forumites may or may not want.

    Ultimately whether 2HF is "superior" or not boils down to whether a mob dies in 2 swings or 2.4 swings...the difference is largely meaningless..in the "majority" of situations
    "Im-plo-sion: For when you just absolutely HAVE to kill every M*****-F***** in the room".
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Prior to the 25 cap noone cared about multitarget DPS. Now it is almost everything.
    I personally think people valued aoe dps highly. There was tons of whining about casters getting aoe dps while melees have to go 1-by-1. I think the issue was that there was no reasonable outlet for multi-target dps. There was just weak glancing blows on first and third swings, if you stayed still. The cleaves weren't good enough before. The cleaves got a boost in U14(getting +W dmg and glancing blows on every hit), and Legendary Dreadnought's Momentum Swing and Lay Waste further attracted people to the cleaves. I mean, preU14 Supreme Cleave was extremely popular for people who played barbarians. There just wasn't enough of a penny here and a penny there to make a dollar for melee aoe dps.
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

  3. #43
    Community Member RumpleHorril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    IMO the issue is this.

    TWF is better at single target DPS, THF is better at multi-target. But THF is good (if not outstanding) at single target while TWF is beyond awful at multi-target DPS.

    Prior to the 25 cap noone cared about multitarget DPS. Now it is almost everything.
    Can we elaborate on this a little...

    If I understand the theory behind the statement:

    TWF= Better at single target due to all of your damage being focused on a single target, worse when getting mobbed by mobs because there's no glancing blows
    and
    THF=Better at clusterf***ks of mobs because of the glancing blows, worse at single target because of the slower attack speed


    Am I in the ballpark?

  4. #44
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    IMO the issue is this.

    TWF is better at single target DPS, THF is better at multi-target. But THF is good (if not outstanding) at single target while TWF is beyond awful at multi-target DPS.

    Prior to the 25 cap noone cared about multitarget DPS. Now it is almost everything.
    Is it so much better at multi target dps that im better off putting away my duel peshes on my pally and getting out my best thf weapon and using that on mobs? Even without the 2hf feats, I have cleave and great cleave though.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumpleHorril View Post
    Can we elaborate on this a little...

    If I understand the theory behind the statement:

    TWF= Better at single target due to all of your damage being focused on a single target, worse when getting mobbed by mobs because there's no glancing blows
    and
    THF=Better at clusterf***ks of mobs because of the glancing blows, worse at single target because of the slower attack speed


    Am I in the ballpark?
    Yes I guess but I think some have posted that THF is only slightly behind TWF in single target dps while as for multi-target dps THF is leagues ahead of TWF.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 03-03-2013 at 05:37 AM.

  5. #45
    Community Member RumpleHorril's Avatar
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    Had another thought... Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that "Anyone" can solo EH... Not sure who this guy hangs out with, but the majority of folks I run across can't solo anything past waterworks. Which made me think... I'm trying to get human advice from immortal DDO gods

    It kind of boils down to this in my head... How MUCH of a difference are we talking here?

    Epic Hard Mobs have on average around what... 2-3k HP's? If we take two test subjects (TWF & THF) with the Dreadnaught ED and hand them some auction house weapons, what's the difference going to be in total time to clear a room of say 4 mobs? 1 orange named mini-boss?

  6. #46
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    Ive seen many reasons for and against both fighting style.
    None of them relevant to me since most of the reasons are for making you look/feel awesome with your chosen weapon, instead of being more effective.

    The fact is that TWF is the best style for its effectiveness. Lets imagine 2 parties with a healer 4 fighter and a CC caster with sufficient DC. Party A is full of THF, party B is only TWF.
    The party encounters a group of mobs and the caster use hypno on them, to stop them doing anything.

    Now in party A the genius fighters rush in and start swinging their stupid weapons to wake up every single mob. The casters effort to prevent most of them doing any dmg was futile thnx to some brain dead monkeys, and depending on the number and lvl of the mobs could end in a party wipe or at least cost a lot of SP for the healer.

    Lets pretend party B fighters didn't take TWF because they are Drizzt fans and want to look cool, and they have a couple of braincells. They encounter the same group of mobs and the caster use hypno on them. The 4 fighter being smarter than the average THF, always target the same mob, killing them 1by1 much faster while the hypno lasts, saving the healer a lot of mana.

    Most of the CC spells are enchantments, including the best spells in ddo hypnotize,(or otto) that also gives a penalty to will saves inviting other will based CC spells.

    Conclusion: THF ->stupid
    TWF ->smart

  7. #47
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    Ive seen many reasons for and against both fighting style.
    None of them relevant to me since most of the reasons are for making you look/feel awesome with your chosen weapon, instead of being more effective.

    The fact is that TWF is the best style for its effectiveness. Lets imagine 2 parties with a healer 4 fighter and a CC caster with sufficient DC. Party A is full of THF, party B is only TWF.
    The party encounters a group of mobs and the caster use hypno on them, to stop them doing anything.

    Now in party A the genius fighters rush in and start swinging their stupid weapons to wake up every single mob. The casters effort to prevent most of them doing any dmg was futile thnx to some brain dead monkeys, and depending on the number and lvl of the mobs could end in a party wipe or at least cost a lot of SP for the healer.

    Lets pretend party B fighters didn't take TWF because they are Drizzt fans and want to look cool, and they have a couple of braincells. They encounter the same group of mobs and the caster use hypno on them. The 4 fighter being smarter than the average THF, always target the same mob, killing them 1by1 much faster while the hypno lasts, saving the healer a lot of mana.

    Most of the CC spells are enchantments, including the best spells in ddo hypnotize,(or otto) that also gives a penalty to will saves inviting other will based CC spells.

    Conclusion: THF ->stupid
    TWF ->smart

    axer is going to love this post lol!!!!

    so when I play my 2wf pally im smart!!! and when I play my thf bard im stupid?


    even when we did dust is it? in the vale on my thf bard I switched to sword and board, and no without a glancing blows weapon so I wouldnt accidently kill a spider and I have seen plenty of 2hf people do this. And as a bard in epics, I know what weapon to use and where to use it if im using fasinate as a CC.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    axer is going to love this post lol!!!!

    so when I play my 2wf pally im smart!!! and when I play my thf bard im stupid?


    even when we did dust is it? in the vale on my thf bard I switched to sword and board, and no without a glancing blows weapon so I wouldnt accidently kill a spider and I have seen plenty of 2hf people do this. And as a bard in epics, I know what weapon to use and where to use it if im using fasinate as a CC.
    That was very simplifying but ok. So what is your reason to use THF? To grab agro around you because the skill system is a **** and you cant raise your intimidate to an effective lvl?
    A THF can do some dmg around him even proc some, but you can do greater dmg with a scalpel than a hammer. And in the long run TWF is faster and more mana friendly is all Im saying.
    Last edited by ulgabi; 03-03-2013 at 10:09 AM.

  9. #49
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Doublestrike should be for both hands.
    Faster cleaves and other abilities and should get offhand damage too.
    Stun and other tactics for both hands too, and get double strike chance like wraps.

    Full str offhand bonus might too much, but everything which works for main hand should work with off hand.

  10. #50
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumpleHorril View Post
    Had another thought... Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that "Anyone" can solo EH... Not sure who this guy hangs out with, but the majority of folks I run across can't solo anything past waterworks. Which made me think... I'm trying to get human advice from immortal DDO gods
    It is good to be an immortal DDO god.

    But, truth is that eHard is not too difficult for players with a reasonable to high amount of experience and a decent amount of higher end gear.

    Here is my first life monk: Tangledroots George. If you follow the link and click thru his gear you will see that he does not have anything really spectacular. But, I solo thru all eNormal content with no problems at all and do the same for most eHard content.

    For players with better gear eHard becomes relatively easy.

    My biggest challenge is in some end fights where the boss regenerates. It can become a very long fight trying to wear them down. I will sometimes "cheat" in those situations by first clearing everything solo and then going back to the entrance to summon a hireling. Or, if I am flush with TP, I'll summon one or two gold seal hirelings.

    Other players, with more focus on DPS and better gear set ups, don't face that issue. So, for them, eHard becomes easy. And, the more you run the quest the easier it gets -- because you increase how much you know about the quest and what it is you need to do for each encounter.

    If you and your friends are having difficulty it is probably one of three things:

    1) Character class -- some are just more difficult to solo with than others.
    2) Character build -- maybe the class isn't the problem but stats, skills, feats are not helping.
    3) Character gear -- most of DDO at this point becomes relatively easy if you have the gear.

    Of course, there is a fourth possibility. It could be that people just suck as players. But, let's assume that this isn't the case.

    After all, I've capped multiple characters (most in TR right now and many just sitting on L1 while I play other characters, but that's a whole different subject). If I can cap characters ANYONE can.

  11. #51
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    Conclusion: THF ->stupid
    TWF ->smart
    This post gives an example to prove its point. The problem is that the example does not represent how the majority of people play. And, by majority I mean the in-game players that I group with nearly every day.

    Crowd control is really about a 4 or 5 years ago strategy that most in-game players do not use or that they only use very rarely. It has been making a comeback, but it isn't the most common thing that you see in a quest.

    Most of the time, casters putting up web, disco ball, hypnotism -- that is all just a waste of spell points in most encounters. So, I would conclude instead that:

    Caster that uses CC when not need -> stupid
    Caster that lets melee crush stuff in a few seconds -> smart


  12. #52
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post

    Most of the CC spells are enchantments, including the best spells in ddo hypnotize,(or otto) that also gives a penalty to will saves inviting other will based CC spells.
    If you think hypno is the best CC, or the best spell in game, learn to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    This post gives an example to prove its point. The problem is that the example does not represent how the majority of people play. And, by majority I mean the in-game players that I group with nearly every day.

    Crowd control is really about a 4 or 5 years ago strategy that most in-game players do not use or that they only use very rarely. It has been making a comeback, but it isn't the most common thing that you see in a quest.

    Most of the time, casters putting up web, disco ball, hypnotism -- that is all just a waste of spell points in most encounters. So, I would conclude instead that:

    Caster that uses CC when not need -> stupid
    Caster that lets melee crush stuff in a few seconds -> smart

    I admit you got a point there. Most parties are a band of roving chaotic evil barbarians. Still I believe TWF has higher dmg potential, with the added effect of less mana used up by the cleric for healing because of lack of unwanted aggro.

  14. #54
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Just play whatever you want to play. Min/Max people will be moaning about 0.000000000000000000001% DPS loss no matter what anyway.

    TWF is playable and viable and if people land on your head over it, it's time to find someone else to party with.
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    That was very simplifying but ok. So what is your reason to use THF? To grab agro around you because the skill system is a **** and you cant raise your intimidate to an effective lvl?
    A THF can do some dmg around him even proc some, but you can do greater dmg with a scalpel than a hammer. And in the long run TWF is faster and more mana friendly is all Im saying.
    CC isn't usually needed and when it is the preferred choices are web, discoball, mass hold (because they are either persistent or create additional damage). For most of the content more damage/killing power is more effective than CC.

    A "CC build" is over-focused on a situational ability if it's not a sideline ability with other abilities frequently made use of, like healing or direct damage.

    THF, leading back on topic, is more useful more often because it's been improved for AoE damage with cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, the THF line, and more. Players face groups of mobs over single target opponents most of the time so what you are describing is to restrict a commonly needed ability (AoE damage) over a situational ability (CC).

    I play bards as my favorite class and I know first hand what it's like to watch a room full of immobilized enemies suddenly become free again. If we need the CC the person who broke it would be at fault. If we don't need the CC then immobilizing a room full of enemies doesn't mean much. If I want to keep them immobilized a disco ball usually works better because it doesn't break on hit.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the disadvantage of breaking mezzes. I specifically mentioned in a recent thread that is a drawback to THF bards using fascinate but also acknowledged what is more common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
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  16. #56
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    CC isn't usually needed and when it is the preferred choices are web, discoball, mass hold (because they are either persistent or create additional damage). For most of the content more damage/killing power is more effective than CC.

    A "CC build" is over-focused on a situational ability if it's not a sideline ability with other abilities frequently made use of, like healing or direct damage.

    THF, leading back on topic, is more useful more often because it's been improved for AoE damage with cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, the THF line, and more. Players face groups of mobs over single target opponents most of the time so what you are describing is to restrict a commonly needed ability (AoE damage) over a situational ability (CC).

    I play bards as my favorite class and I know first hand what it's like to watch a room full of immobilized enemies suddenly become free again. If we need the CC the person who broke it would be at fault. If we don't need the CC then immobilizing a room full of enemies doesn't mean much. If I want to keep them immobilized a disco ball usually works better because it doesn't break on hit.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the disadvantage of breaking mezzes. I specifically mentioned in a recent thread that is a drawback to THF bards using fascinate but also acknowledged what is more common.
    Even back in the day, I rarely had to use fascinate and in the situations where I needed to the party made changes to tactics to let it work most of the time. Just because someone is holding a two handed weapon doesn't make them an idiot like he was implying.

    As to why I went two handed fighting on my bard? two reasons, 1st cost, it was much cheaper, less feats, less green steel and other stuff to farm, a character that could use the good two handed weapons I found, I already had a 2wf. Second for fun, I already had a 2wf melee at the time I wanted to do something different, play a different melee style for a bit, is that so wrong?

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Even back in the day, I rarely had to use fascinate and in the situations where I needed to the party made changes to tactics to let it work most of the time. Just because someone is holding a two handed weapon doesn't make them an idiot like he was implying.

    As to why I went two handed fighting on my bard? two reasons, 1st cost, it was much cheaper, less feats, less green steel and other stuff to farm, a character that could use the good two handed weapons I found, I already had a 2wf. Second for fun, I already had a 2wf melee at the time I wanted to do something different, play a different melee style for a bit, is that so wrong?
    I used fascinate last night. It was one of those "watch the sorc we brought who said he had it covered but was clearly mistaken moments" followed by musical notes as everything walked through a disco ball with not a single failed save followed by "told you I had this" followed by energy burst followed by *ding* followed by more musical notes followed by a soul stone stating "I think it was lag. I don't see any of them moving..."

    So there are some ppl out there who don't understand. I know they exist.

    And I agree, not everyone is an idiot, and most players can be taught. Some players just have that odd memorable moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    I admit you got a point there. Most parties are a band of roving chaotic evil barbarians. Still I believe TWF has higher dmg potential, with the added effect of less mana used up by the cleric for healing because of lack of unwanted aggro.
    I can't really debate the anecdotal argument comparing an un-coordinated THF group vs a more organised TWF group. However I can point out that a THF player is equally capable of teamwork. Here are a few positive examples

    Aggro:
    THF player grouping with 1 or more Rogues, co-ordinates combat so that the Rogues get SA's as often as possible.
    Similarly - THF grouping with any combination of 'squishies'. That term is highly subjective, but what I mean are characters without enough defenses to survive holding aggro for very long in the relevant quest. This also includes incapacitated/low health players. THF's can be well prepared to divert aggro away from these characters, saving a party healer from having to keep a constant eye on one or more players.

    In the case of a party member about to be swarmed, the THF can dive in Cleaving and Intimidating, quickly picking up the aggro. Depending on the scenario they then might kite/drag the mobs somewhere else, or even switch to a shield and turtle up while waiting for Cleaves to recharge...it depends on what helps the group to recover.

    Similarly the aggro grabbing tactics can be used for kiting mobs into a CC spell cast by a party member, or into some traps, or even just around a corner/into a doorway/'killzone' for your party members to heap AOE attacks into.

    Weapon range/animations:
    The moving attack animation for THF is more effective than the TWF animation. Cleaves work very well while moving.
    THF can circle-strafe, or even backpedal while swinging in order to minimise incoming damage while maintaining output. Very handy for boss fights, or soloing.

    Inventory space/carrying capacity:
    If there's one player for lugging around heavy quest items, it's the THF.



    On the other side of the board, TWF positive examples:

    Flanking:
    The skilled TWF player flanks mobs even if they're not a Rogue, avoiding unnecessary 'face damage'.

    Precision/Single Target DPS:
    TWF players are better prepared for taking out mobs 1 by 1, such as when working with a Hypnotism-like effect, or indeed focused DPS on a single target boss.

    Weapon slot flexibility:
    Combos such as Cursespewing and Improved Cursespewing are handy. Some effects such as Crippling equipment add a tactical edge to TWF (these effects don't always work with handwraps though).



    In a group scenario I'd be more interested in seeing a combination of styles, and how well they can work together.

    If a group has 4 'melees' in it, for sake of example a THF Barb and a S&B Paladin, and two TWF Rogues.
    The THF and S&B both have Intim and Cleave, and can cycle aggro as needed. The TWF work together on single targets, quickly dispatching mobs. The Barb might still need some extra healing, but in this scenario would be timing Cleaves and Intimidates with the Paladin to keep combat fairly well controlled, alleviating need for CC.

    Or we might have a group with 4 Fighters of various types: a pure S&B/tactics type, a THF/Toughness beefcake, a TWF Rogue splash with Evasion/UMD, and a Monk-splash with Evasion/tactics

    In this scenario all of the melees might make use of Intimidate: the S&B vs melee mobs, the THF as needed when party members are vulnerable, the Evasion types against casters. The S&B and THF would again be using Cleaves, while the TWF would again focus on single target elimination...facilitated by the array of Stuns and Trips this group can pull off.

    In a group with 4 THF Barbarians: there's a lot of Cleaving to be done. Providing that this can be synchronised it can flow well with healing...if not organised, this can be very messy. Let's say they're all WF too without healing amp..

    heh, this is going on too long but the point is, there's potential for good teamwork in pretty much any group makeup
    Last edited by JollySwagMan; 03-03-2013 at 05:53 PM.

  19. #59
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
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    Im a Ranger Fan.... 4 Rangers/multiclass so far lol ... Needless to say i use TWF alot. Also i have a Fighter and a Barb that use THF.

    For most part THF is superior. Hits for much more per swing, the +{W} boosts are fantastic on a fat dice Greataxe (looking at you EAGA) it makes sick damage. Huge single damage swings push thru more damage on DR Mobs and Cleave/GC/Glances rock a pull of 3 or 4 mobs. STrength Bonuses are DOUBLED on THF. Power attack DOUBLES its value on THF (so like Horcs/WF actually get +6 racial enhancements form PA buffs). Combine this massive base damage increase with all the critical multipliers now in game and it gets crazy... fast. Oh God, lets now even talk about how good FoTW is for a fat 2 handed sword. 7000+ Crits? Yes Please!

    TWF needs some attention. The Nerf to 1/2 STR on off hand was wrong. Double Strike needs to have a proc chance on each hand. +{W} additions should apply to both hands.

    I Would suggest useing some PREs to promote THFing. Make Tempest 2 give +3% DoubleStrike, tempest 3 give 6% Double Strike. Stuff like that. Maybe consider Warchanter as well.

    TWF is just so underwhelming. Add to that the fact that all the EDs are bad for 2 hand fighters. The Avatar ED is awful for the most part. And it is the only ED with anything for a TWF style. Again .. Underwhelming.

    TWF should be noticeably better on a single target and effects application. THF IS noticeably better in AE and DR DPS.

    Make Both sides of the coin the same please.

  20. #60
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    twf vs 2hf....


    My opinion is simple enough here.

    2hf for High STR big hitters, 2wf for tactical experts, weapon use experts, finesse damage types.

    If your build adds lots of extra damage to every attack (no matter how it does that) then 2wf is right for you.
    If your build is reliant on a large str score for its damage then 2hf is right for you.

    Its also woth considering the fact that 2wf allows for 'slotting' multiple options simulteneously. As others have said - stunning, shatter, vertigo, exceptional tactics are all slottable on body slots, but slotting ALL of them is not(or atleast its going to leave you strugling for space).

    2 handed fighting also works better if you have no spare feats to use on it (eg for battle casters/clerics or other off meles)

    So in short.

    2 hander classes:
    fighter(high str), barb (high STR), all feat starved off meles, any high STR build.

    2 weapon classes:
    fighter (+ damage on hit due to specialisation), rogue (sneak attack), bard(+damage on hit), paladin (+damage thru spells and DivineMight), ranger (+damage on hit from favoured enemy)


    As you can see... fighters are at home with either choice.
    Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
    stuff by me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...02#post4938302

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