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  1. #41
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123 View Post
    You don't get more people in the game by spending your time looking for opportunities to nerf creations that were years in the making (time spent by individuals carefully tuning their characters to peak performance).
    That has never made the game grow by leaps and bounds.
    They've made AT LEAST two dozen changes over the years that "nerfed" "peak performance" builds and the game is still going strong...

    Anyone who has ever played this MMO (any MMO really) for more than a year knows this.

    Gear is added and/or changed, abilities are added and/or changed, new dungeons are added or changed and mobs are added and/or changed.

    It happens near continously. Don't be a one-trick pony and your characters can adapt easily. And even if you were dumb enough to be one-trick pony, DDO at least offers LRs and TRs for you to fix it.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #42
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    They've made AT LEAST two dozen changes over the years that "nerfed" "peak performance" builds and the game is still going strong...

    Anyone who has ever played this MMO (any MMO really) for more than a year knows this.

    Gear is added and/or changed, abilities are added and/or changed, new dungeons are added or changed and mobs are added and/or changed.

    It happens near continously. Don't be a one-trick pony and your characters can adapt easily. And even if you were dumb enough to be one-trick pony, DDO at least offers LRs and TRs for you to fix it.
    Yes, Thrudh. But it isn't always about one-trick ponies. Sometimes it's called "playing by the rules". When Turbine decides it needs/wants to change something around, especially radically, it really shouldn't require a person to basically pay for the service of the LR/TR.

    They were rather accomodating the last time around with the free LR, due to the major changes to their AC and combat systems. But for some that was hardly beneficial enough. Luckily I learned in all my years playing here how heavy-handed they can be in fixing their own "mistakes" so my main is hardly a one-trick pony. He's at least good for two or three tricks depending on how well I coax and reward him. I built him so that even as I respec he's rather unnerfable. However, it was a hard lesson learned as Turbine did things like create Tempest PRE that required three consecutive Feats that were only tradeable at Freds for Shards that were rather grindy as heck to get acquire. Heck, before Syberis Shards could be grinded into different forms the Shards needed for Fred were very rare drops. Luckily by the time Tempest came out I could grind them out or purchase them at the AH. But still, it could have been handled so much better by Turbine and garnered much good-will.

    Turbine has made great strides, I will admit, but they still make it far more difficult to trade out Feats than they should, especially since their Feat system is rather complex and not always functioning as described. Some mistakes that player's make is simply not realizing that the Feats are not as good as described or that they've been changed.

    I'm glad they finally have a decent respec option in-game. But they really shouldn't charge as much as they do for it, in my opinion. A show of good faith would be to give a free Heart of Wood for a Lesser for every new player to use once if they ever feel the need. The cost of the development itself has to be long since covered. It will cost nothing but future sales. And they really shouldn't be counting on sales because of changes made to their mechanics or bugs discovered in their Feats. My 2 cents anyway.

  3. #43
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Maybe try for some balancing with some of the classes via giving some other classes prestige's enhancements and builds some more love instead of nerfing the other more powerful ones? Some have been lagging further and further behind all the others, and some become pretty powerful then get hit with the nerf bat and never ever recover.

  4. #44
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    the only way to balance is stop adding new content, gear and fixing bugs

    this way that today is OP (because not all classes need the same time/effort to hit the same numbers) tomorrow will be OP

    if that's what you want, a mmorpg isn't a clever choice

    because there are some players that only think in endgame(strange concept) and in exploits, for later complain about how easy it has been to achieve it
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  5. #45
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    They've made AT LEAST two dozen changes over the years that "nerfed" "peak performance" builds and the game is still going strong...

    Anyone who has ever played this MMO (any MMO really) for more than a year knows this.

    Gear is added and/or changed, abilities are added and/or changed, new dungeons are added or changed and mobs are added and/or changed.

    It happens near continously. Don't be a one-trick pony and your characters can adapt easily. And even if you were dumb enough to be one-trick pony, DDO at least offers LRs and TRs for you to fix it.
    The one thing that makes you correct on this, for DDO only, is that people wont leave en masse when the company steps over the line on the nerfing issue.

    SWG on the other hand, is a perfect example where the company nerfed classes to the point where everyone had to start their templates over, and within 6 weeks, a fraction of the playerbase was left. Not all playerbases are the same in this regard.

    In DDO, those who scream the loudest and threaten to leave the most clearly understand that they will not make good on those threats, which is why such a large front has to be put up in the first place. There will be no mass exodus. With a more aged and mature crowd, what happens is different peoples levels of tolerance are exceeded at different times, and when that happens they individually take breaks or leave.

    People that are still mentally living in the 100% offense / 0% defense era are going to be far less happy with this new incarnation of DDO, with its emphasis on survivability and tactical gaming. The days of cookie cutter khopesh grinder builds are over.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-07-2013 at 09:50 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #46
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    So I could build a perfect toon that took 2 years to build, then one moment, because of someone jealousy (I thought this is not a pvp game), turbine going to nerf that toon and I waste 2 years of time on that toon, and then I have to start that toon all over again. THIS is one of the reason we lose many ddo players over the year. Also, some people have spend a long time farming for a good item that took years to farm, then one second (oh no their toon is better than mine! But I don't want to spend that amount of time to make a good toon, so just nerf it! Now their toon is as gimp as mine! )...Another reason we lose some players. D&D is never balance, remember that.

    Now, how would people feel when they seen that their toon that they took a long time to build had been nerfed? They get mad, and when they get mad, they delete ddo and then done with the game.

    One person or group of people jealousy towards others could cause a big chance (LARGE group of people leaving ddo, which I bet many of ddo players have seen happening in the past).
    In a word YES. However your exaggeration that DDO makes balancing (nerf) decisions because of jealousy concerning item or character corrections is way off base. Yes there have been players leave the game for many many many reasons. There have also been many many many new players join the game. Yes there have been a few players that have left the game because of the misrepresented reason you laid out and I know a few that have come back because the grass was far worse on the other side.

    DDO is and remains the best MMO on the market for one reason. It's development team cares and pays attention to lopsided unintended consequences with characters and items and corrects them. Thank god we have a team like that supporting the game we all love to play.
    Last edited by shores11; 03-07-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    In a word YES. However your exaggeration that DDO makes balancing (nerf) decisions because of jealousy concerning item or character corrections is way off base. Yes there have been players leave the game for many many many reasons. There have also been many many many new players join the game. Yes there have been a few players that have left the game because of the misrepresented reason you laid out and I know a few that have come back because the grass was far worse on the other side.

    DDO is and remains the best MMO on the market for one reason. It's development team cares and pays attention to lopsided unintended consequences with characters and items and corrects them. Thank god we have a team like that supporting the game we all love to play.
    Indeed.

  8. #48
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Maybe try for some balancing with some of the classes via giving some other classes prestige's enhancements and builds some more love instead of nerfing the other more powerful ones? Some have been lagging further and further behind all the others, and some become pretty powerful then get hit with the nerf bat and never ever recover.
    I'd probably do both at the same time -> tone down the overpowered one, and buff the underpowered one until they are equally viable. Nerfing to make something completely unviable is stupid, but buffing everyone to equal the strongest build is just as stupid, since the game is already very easy.

  9. #49
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    What is easier, 'fixing' a couple extremely over powered things or rebalancing the game as a whole?

    "Hey Dev Billy... Fix the fact that X Y Z combo can solo every quest in the game on epic elite"
    ...humm... well I could buff the monsters, increase the ability of the other 300 abilities in the game... then test each ability to make sure I didn't make something else amazing... or... bring down the one thing making this X Y Z so good.

    ... what the hell is he going to do? I'll remind you time is money.

  10. #50
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    People that are still mentally living in the 100% offense / 0% defense era are going to be far less happy with this new incarnation of DDO, with its emphasis on survivability and tactical gaming. The days of cookie cutter khopesh grinder builds are over.
    Yes, and long live the days of cookie cutter manyshot Shiradi ranged grinder builds. Long may they reign .

  11. #51
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Yes, and long live the days of cookie cutter manyshot Shiradi ranged grinder builds. Long may they reign .
    Naaa...there are quite a few builds now that can work in manyshot for the good burst DPS. Its not just small variants of the same build running around. Most of them are fury or LD. This may narrow down to a few as soon as people figure out which ones are the best performers.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zindro View Post
    What is easier, 'fixing' a couple extremely over powered things or rebalancing the game as a whole?

    "Hey Dev Billy... Fix the fact that X Y Z combo can solo every quest in the game on epic elite"
    ...humm... well I could buff the monsters, increase the ability of the other 300 abilities in the game... then test each ability to make sure I didn't make something else amazing... or... bring down the one thing making this X Y Z so good.

    ... what the hell is he going to do? I'll remind you time is money.
    Or they could have tested the build combinations that can solo every quest on EE in the first place and found it to be OP before it was implemented.

    Whats better for customer loyalty retention - not implementing something that is OP in the first place, or giving people a taste of that power for a long period of time then taking it away.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickwall View Post
    They all ready nurfed all heroic EXP in Gianthold by a lot i max farmed all the stuff i normally do every life and i came up over 100k short to hit 16 and i did the grind when the 25% xp was active so they took a good 200k+ out of Gianthold..... having a ruff time not packing up and leaving ddo this life.
    Are you serious? This is troubling... that's how I get from 13 to 15 every life. Why would the devs do that, does anyone know? I could/ should probably read the release notes but I'm too lazy, I'll admit.

    If this is true that's a problem, as I find the Lordsmarch stuff trying at that level so usually hang out in GH until I get past all that stuff so I can skip it.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
    Nerf Happiness

  14. #54
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Naaa...there are quite a few builds now that can work in manyshot for the good burst DPS. Its not just small variants of the same build running around. Most of them are fury or LD. This may narrow down to a few as soon as people figure out which ones are the best performers.
    Oh I know. I'm just heading towards Shiradi at the moment. So I need it to keep performing well with manyshot until I get to fury.

    It's like everything else. It's a bunch of variants of a combat style using certain techniques. You know the drill, think TWF .

    After all, what are we supposed to do when Turbine gives us mobs that hit for around 250+? And billions of HP?

    Get hit less and do more burst damage.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 03-08-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The nerf isnt to xp itself, but to xp per minute due to invis not working, which allows people to run far more quests for BB XP before the insanity sets in. Its like working a factory floor where large crates and pallets need to be moved regularly, and the forklifts all broke down at the same time.
    Ok, so this proves the point of it wasn't a nerf. It's because of a bug. Mystery solved and now I shouldn't see another post from Brickwall about it....


    Or it'll be like talking to a brick wall....


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

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