Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default Meleeing the EE Truthful one?

    Who's doing this without getting pasted? Get someone to kite and beat on his tale? Trolling for better ideas.

    Beat him tonight on EE with ranged that was slow, anyway to speed it up would be great.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    65

    Default

    First and foremost DDO is a game where combat animations are key. If you are outside the area of effect of a boss's attack, the attack will not hit you, plain and simple. Any physical attack can be avoided in this fashion, and even beam or ball spells can be avoided with appropriate timing and the correct amount of distance. That being said, I think the following tip is something that people need to hear and not JUST for this raid:

    ***** Learn to not stand still while meleeing. ******

    Obviously you're asking this question because when running this raid on EH or EE (or maybe even EN, he can still hit like a truck if you're not fighting him right) you're probably not overgeared to the point that you can just shield block stand still using your PRR to mitigate enough damage that Boss DPS < Healing output.

    So here are some tips:

    The Truthful One has a few melee attacks, one where he swipes his front paw in an arc in front of him, one where he spins his whole body, and one where he swings his tail twice (there might be others but these three are the most used). All three attacks' animations can be avoided COMPLETELY with proper footwork.

    If you see the dragon draw his paw back, it means he's either going to swipe it or spin based on the position of the person holding aggro (if the person is in front, its a claw swipe, if the person is on the side/behind the dragon, it's going to be a full body spin). If he's going for a paw swipe, you are safe from this animation on his side or behind him. If he's going for a full body spin, you need to backpedal as soon as he ***** his arm back (it is key that you learn to watch the positioning of the tank to differentiate between a paw swipe and a full body spin. However due to lag factors, this is not always going to be possible, so don't get too frustrated if it's hard to tell whether he's going to swipe or spin.)

    If you see the dragon move his tail back to swing it, you need to move AWAY from the Dragon TOWARDS his head if that makes sense (in other words, you need to be backpedaling and moving towards the front of his body when he pulls his tail back). This will keep you out of the range of his tail swipe.

    Using these techniques (barring lag-related problems -- if you or the server drops the wrong packet at the wrong time, you're gonna get hit by one of his attacks, period) it is possible to melee DPS the dragon without EVER taking damage or being hit by his melee attacks IF you are not the focus of the dragon's aggro.


    Tips for a melee holding the dragon's aggro:

    It is still essential that you move CONTINUOUSLY while holding the dragon's aggro. If you try to stand still and facetank him, you're most likely going to die. If you try to kite him, you'll probably live longer, but the rest of the raid party's melees are likely going to be unable to effectively dps him. The trick is to move in a half-circle or full circle at ALL times. This will keep him in place while keeping you out of his attacks' red zone. If he pulls his paw back to swipe, you need to IMMEDIATELY be moving OUT AND AROUND his body, ending your arc to stand directly under his tail. Whether he spins or swipes, you will avoid damage as long as you move outward from him at the beginning of his animation. Then as long as you end in a position behind him, and are still the primary target of his aggro, he will delay a few moments in an effort to turn around and face you. THIS IS THE KEY -- no matter what attack he is using you NEED to position yourself in a manner that will cause the dragon to turn and face you after the attack. If you stand still and never make him change positions, he will attack CONTINUOUSLY causing much higher overall damage to the other melees who fail to avoid his attacks and causing the healers to have to spam heals to keep people alive.

    If you do not have spring attack and it is causing you to miss too often, at the very least learn the technique of standing still for a split second before swinging and then IMMEDIATELY beginning movement again (not two swings, not three swings, not drink a potion, just STOP, SWING, MOVE), or more ideally, acquire the Spring Attack feat or swap some of your gear to earn 4 more attack bonus so you can hit the dragon effectively and keep hate.


    For EVERYONE but the tank, the sweet spot is on the dragon's side, that's where you want to be, so you can be prepared to avoid in either dircetion based on whether he swings his paws or his tail.

    Pretend this is a top-down view of the dragon, you need to be always thinking about positioning yourself in a manner so that when his attack animation ends, you are standing where it says HERE:

    Code:
    \              /
      \   HERE   /
    O-|||||||||------------------
      /   HERE   \ 
    /              \
    His frontal paw swipes will be completely ineffective as long as this is where you are standing, and you can be easily prepared to move away from him or towards the front of his body if he does a spin or a tail swipe.

    For the tank, there is no "ideal" place to stand. You want to be in front of him but again CONTINUOUSLY moving around him so you will cause him to delay his attacks in an effort to turn and face you. It is also okay to occasionally move directly away from him occasionally if your circling ends up boxing you in a corner or against a wall. Just don't try to do this too much because if the dragon is chasing you you're making it effectively impossible for the other melees to output their dps.

    As a final tip, when he flies in the air, if you are the person who he's throwing fireballs at, you need to move BACK AND FORTH in a semicircle with the correct timing (for instance, you want to keep strafing left, wait for him to stop, then suddenly start strafing right SLIGHTLY BEFORE he stops to shoot his fireball, repeating this in a back and forth motion) and you will NEVER GET HIT by a single fireball (no evasion? no problem. Just improve your footwork.)

    Using these techniques you can allow your raid party to provide a significant amount of DPS to the Truthful One, cutting down both the time it takes to sliver him and the amount of damage the melees will take during close quarters combat. Both of these factors will lead to SIGNIFICANTLY reduced healer stress and potion usage during this raid.

    Source: As my Lv25 Pure Monk I have 3 EE completions, 4 EH completions, and one EN completion (all PUGs except for one EE) this week using the techniques I stated above to manage the Truthful One during the last phase of the raid.

    If you were talking about getting railed by his magic attacks and not his melee attacks, you're standing in the wrong place altogether as being on his side where I showed in the doodle above puts you outside the area of effect of his magic 99.99999% of the time (the sliver of a percent margin of error being due to the lag monsters that plague the DDO physics engine).


    I hope this helps. I TRed last night but when I get my toon back up to 25, and anyone's interested, I can make a video detailing these techniques better than I can probably describe them in this post.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Purgatorii View Post
    First and foremost DDO is a game where combat animations are key. If you are outside the area of effect of a boss's attack, the attack will not hit you, plain and simple. Any physical attack can be avoided in this fashion, and even beam or ball spells can be avoided with appropriate timing and the correct amount of distance. That being said, I think the following tip is something that people need to hear and not JUST for this raid:

    ***** Learn to not stand still while meleeing. ******

    (...snipping for brevity)
    This is GREAT information. Thanks for the detailed insight.

    It's costly to add Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack for Monks, but on two of my Monks that's received them have not looked back; they have great evasive improvements, and Spring Attack pays for itself in the EE "stick and move" attack. We Monks need that Dodge in EE, among concealment and incorporeality, with PRR as a bonus.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  4. #4
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,012

    Default +1 Great detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Purgatorii View Post
    First and foremost DDO is a game where combat animations are key. If you are outside the area of effect of a boss's attack, the attack will not hit you, plain and simple. (snip...)
    All of it makes sense and is explained thoroughly. Well done.
    Character Compendium
    __________________
    Sarlona*Eternal Wrath
    __________________

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    349

    Default Stalwart question

    Has any EE Stalwart evasion tank tried a typical "stand in one spot head-to-head" tanking. Does anyone have experiences from that perspective....again, of a Stalwart evasion tank built for EE?

    Purgatorii, great information! Looks like this would be the solution for an evasion tank with low AC and low PRR.



    Quote Originally Posted by Purgatorii View Post
    For the tank, there is no "ideal" place to stand. You want to be in front of him but again CONTINUOUSLY moving around him so you will cause him to delay his attacks in an effort to turn and face you. It is also okay to occasionally move directly away from him occasionally if your circling ends up boxing you in a corner or against a wall. Just don't try to do this too much because if the dragon is chasing you you're making it effectively impossible for the other melees to output their dps.

    As a final tip, when he flies in the air, if you are the person who he's throwing fireballs at, you need to move BACK AND FORTH in a semicircle with the correct timing (for instance, you want to keep strafing left, wait for him to stop, then suddenly start strafing right SLIGHTLY BEFORE he stops to shoot his fireball, repeating this in a back and forth motion) and you will NEVER GET HIT by a single fireball (no evasion? no problem. Just improve your footwork.)

    Using these techniques you can allow your raid party to provide a significant amount of DPS to the Truthful One, cutting down both the time it takes to sliver him and the amount of damage the melees will take during close quarters combat. Both of these factors will lead to SIGNIFICANTLY reduced healer stress and potion usage during this raid.

    Source: As my Lv25 Pure Monk I have 3 EE completions, 4 EH completions, and one EN completion (all PUGs except for one EE) this week using the techniques I stated above to manage the Truthful One during the last phase of the raid.

    If you were talking about getting railed by his magic attacks and not his melee attacks, you're standing in the wrong place altogether as being on his side where I showed in the doodle above puts you outside the area of effect of his magic 99.99999% of the time (the sliver of a percent margin of error being due to the lag monsters that plague the DDO physics engine).

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamode_Corebasher View Post
    Has any EE Stalwart evasion tank tried a typical "stand in one spot head-to-head" tanking. Does anyone have experiences from that perspective....again, of a Stalwart evasion tank built for EE?

    Purgatorii, great information! Looks like this would be the solution for an evasion tank with low AC and low PRR.
    Better: Shadowdancers in Shadow Form and Monks with Grandmaster of Flowers's Ubiquity abilities can literally phase through that dragon by tumbling, striking, and tumbling again. Works great once you get a rhythm.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  7. #7
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    14,425

    Default

    We killed him toe to toe just standing still on our EE run just fine. Didn't even have a stalwart along.

    I had him for the first 60% health or so, which was a very long time since we had limited dps at that point (out of rage, no weaken undead).

    But yea I got tired, let godmode lapse and um he crit me for 1100, about as many hp as I had at that time.

    Paladin took over and was fine for the rest of the fight. He had a lot higher fort, bit more prr, and similar hp.

    Dont really believe in the above advice of constantly moving. seems a bad strategy. Because if you simply let him knock you into a corner, he will only do his weaker attacks as long as your completely stationary, plus when he flys up, his fireballs cant hit you if your right by a wall.. And yea really no room to move anyways when backed up like that. I mean you might take less dmg, perhaps, but your also slowing down the raid doing it, dont see the point.

    Also makes it easier for dps to stay steady and the arcanes to maintain aoes on him like FW/Cloudkill.

    Though yea by just fine I mean: Burning through a ton of heal scrolls.. Which a ranged tank could do it with probably zero healing. Broken AI is Broken.
    Last edited by Shade; 03-04-2013 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Nitesco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quantum Superposition
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    no weaken undead
    Good point, make sure one of the non-tank melee's has Mournlode Chain/Docent to debuff its fortification.

    Edit: Also comes on Bow of the Silver Flame and Silver Slinger now, which would be better options.
    Last edited by Nitesco; 03-05-2013 at 01:02 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Keybreaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    942

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    We killed him toe to toe just standing still on our EE run just fine [snip]
    Though yea by just fine I mean: Burning through a ton of heal scrolls.. Which a ranged tank could do it with probably zero healing. Broken AI is Broken.
    I play mostly melee toons, and I was the only melee on our EE FoT completion on the day of live release. Firstly, why is it broken that an Epic Undead Dragon's mouth isn't something you should stand and stare into like a training dummy? From any perspective: tactical or roleplaying, if you could range, why wouldn't you???

    Also, RANGED TANKING: I noticed since the Poisoned Well quest that no matter how much hate a ranged caster DOT'er or archer has on the dragon, if a melee moves withing melee range, the green dragon will switch aggro to the melee it can it. This seems like smart AI to me (as opposed to the old AI, where you could perch the original VON1, crit-fish a firewall, bake... then melee could come in and beat down with impunity since the mobs never switch aggro off the caster they couldn't reach).

    If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy. I is risky and requires a great build and high player skill to execute and coordinate.

    What's broken is to expect the same tactic to work in every raid in every MMO: the oppressive "holy trinity" (TANK, healer, dps). BTW, on that first run of ours, where we only had a party of 11 and only 1 player had ever done the raid before (on Lam), we completed in our first attempt "learning run" in about 45min and about 87 pots (mostly for DOTs, not heals), as much or less than a brute force completion. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...05&postcount=1) We do it a lot more efficiently now and are still experimenting with different tactics. Weird right? We are experimenting and not assuming one old way of thinking is the best way; and if it's hard or doesn't work, concluding the design MUST BE BROKEN.

    The Devs have created an excellent new raid that's fresh and fast! I won't be sad if I never see (or hear) Ana again... Also, don't always assume first that the AI is broken... maybe it's not the "artificial" intelligence that's broken.

    I realize I've done a very dangerous thing here. You can't reason with a Frenzied Spartan. The last guy who tried to reason with a Frenzied Spartan was yelled at and thrown down a well... But I was told that sarcasm was against the forum rules.
    Last edited by Keybreaker; 03-05-2013 at 09:49 AM.
    Keybreaker, Leader of Over Raided (Orien)

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    I realize I've done a very dangerous thing here. You can't reason with a Frenzied Spartan. The last guy who tried to reason with a Frenzied Spartan was yelled at and thrown down a well... But I was told that sarcasm was against the forum rules.
    Brenna and Tzanna Wavekin
    The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent

  11. #11
    Community Member Nitesco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quantum Superposition
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Maybe it's time for melee's to all make triple positive returning hammers. At least they'll be cheap and noone will have an excuse not to have a Raise Dead clicky anymore.

  12. #12
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,954

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitesco View Post
    Maybe it's time for melee's to all make triple positive returning hammers. At least they'll be cheap and noone will have an excuse not to have a Raise Dead clicky anymore.
    This is what I'm looking to do. Not crazy about working Shroud back in the rotation though.
    __________________
    Gwyneira : Cattari : Gorobei : Berylore : Zelphia : Aanouk : Beatriice : RobotMaria : Dalrymple : Nihill
    Captain's Crew : Fernia : Ghallanda

  13. #13
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,021

    Default

    I'm amazed at how many people think tank-and-spank is the only legitimate way to down a boss, and should be made the best strategy in every raid. It's as if there aren't enough raids already using tank-and-spank. All these years I've never seen anyone kite-tank horoth or suulo or the CAD or xyzzy or the LOB ...

    Yes, your melee is bad for once. Get over it. It's happened before to ranged, arcanes, melee using strange weapons (quarterstaff), stalwarts, etc.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobmx View Post
    Yes, your melee is bad for once. Get over it. It's happened before to ranged, arcanes, melee using strange weapons (quarterstaff), stalwarts, etc.
    Just don't whine when everyone has TRd/LRd into Shiradi sorcs and Monkchers.

    Variety of viable builds is a good thing. Raids/encounters that lowers this pool is not.
    Last edited by Ape_Man; 03-05-2013 at 02:27 PM.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    What's broken is to expect the same tactic to work in every raid in every MMO: the oppressive "holy trinity" (TANK, healer, dps). . .
    "Broken" might be too strong of a word but the raid is a little too punishing for melees. "One small mistake and you're dead" is what I consider to be too punishing.

    I'm not a big fan of having to have a certain type of group to complete something easily, I like a plethora of viable options. The FoT's I've been in with lots of ranged have gone a hell of a lot smoother than the heavy melee runs even with the same players.

    Don't get me wrong, I love ranged toons and love when they get a chance to shine. But the pendulum has swung a bit far on this raid.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  16. #16
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    "Broken" might be too strong of a word but the raid is a little too punishing for melees. "One small mistake and you're dead" is what I consider to be too punishing.

    I'm not a big fan of having to have a certain type of group to complete something easily, I like a plethora of viable options. The FoT's I've been in with lots of ranged have gone a hell of a lot smoother than the heavy melee runs even with the same players.

    Don't get me wrong, I love ranged toons and love when they get a chance to shine. But the pendulum has swung a bit far on this raid.
    Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters
    Play more than one type of toon, it's good for the soul.

    I play both melee and DC casters? Should I just rage-quit?
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters
    What makes you think we haven't seen this before?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    but quite frankly ranged kiting is more of an exploit then a strategy.
    The fact that there exists a standard term, 'ranged kiting', for this strategy invalidates the 'more of an exploit' part.

    Look on the bright side: maybe we won't have a "buff ranged! Nao!" thread on the forums. This week.
    Last edited by SableShadow; 03-05-2013 at 02:21 PM.
    Brenna and Tzanna Wavekin
    The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent

  19. #19
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,727

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy.
    No! NOOOO! It is not! It is broken and wrong. Using strategy and/or tactics is CHEATING!

    The only acceptable way to complete a quest or raid is to have one or more people scream "LEROY JENKINS!" while a Cleric or FvS bombards them with Hjeals through a metaphysical IV line.

  20. #20
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    I play mostly melee toons, and I was the only melee on our EE FoT completion on the day of live release. Firstly, why is it broken that an Epic Undead Dragon's mouth isn't something you should stand and stare into like a training dummy? From any perspective: tactical or roleplaying, if you could range, why wouldn't you???

    Also, RANGED TANKING: I noticed since the Poisoned Well quest that no matter how much hate a ranged caster DOT'er or archer has on the dragon, if a melee moves withing melee range, the green dragon will switch aggro to the melee it can it. This seems like smart AI to me (as opposed to the old AI, where you could perch the original VON1, crit-fish a firewall, bake... then melee could come in and beat down with impunity since the mobs never switch aggro off the caster they couldn't reach).

    If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy. I is risky and requires a great build and high player skill to execute and coordinate.

    What's broken is to expect the same tactic to work in every raid in every MMO: the oppressive "holy trinity" (TANK, healer, dps). BTW, on that first run of ours, where we only had a party of 11 and only 1 player had ever done the raid before (on Lam), we completed in our first attempt "learning run" in about 45min and about 87 pots (mostly for DOTs, not heals), as much or less than a brute force completion. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...05&postcount=1) We do it a lot more efficiently now and are still experimenting with different tactics. Weird right? We are experimenting and not assuming one old way of thinking is the best way; and if it's hard or doesn't work, concluding the design MUST BE BROKEN.

    The Devs have created an excellent new raid that's fresh and fast! I won't be sad if I never see (or hear) Ana again... Also, don't always assume first that the AI is broken... maybe it's not the "artificial" intelligence that's broken.

    I realize I've done a very dangerous thing here. You can't reason with a Frenzied Spartan. The last guy who tried to reason with a Frenzied Spartan was yelled at and thrown down a well... But I was told that sarcasm was against the forum rules.
    Sure other strategies then just tank/melee/healer should work in game, but quite frankly ranged kiting is more of an exploit then a strategy. A cool ranged strategy would be two high hate archers with high diplomacy scores constantly bouncing a target between each other. Now something like that is cool and takes skill, but out running a raid boss because the raid boss is slow is something else altogether.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload