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  1. #1
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Default Immunities are the root of all evil.

    Immune is so much more than highly resistant. So very much more. Immune means it simply doesn't even exist.

    I'm not allowed to discuss in the EE suggestion thread because the OP said that it's only for them and other elitists who solely run EE with their exploiter toons. Even though the overall point of the OP was that you shouldn't have to use a certain build that exploits loopholes to be successful in EE, they feel EE belongs to the elitists and the rest of us are not allowed to comment.

    I would say the problem with EE... the problem with the entire game... the reason so many people have left... the reason I can't wait for ESO... the reason why I'd even thought about going back to WoW for a fleeting second... immunities.

    FoM makes you immune to holds... so everyone simply gets FoM all the time and hence never needs to worry about holds again.
    Deathward makes you immune to level drain... so everyone gets DW and hence never needs to worry about level drain again.
    Protection from Evil makes you immune to command...

    So the entire game becomes a buff check. Have you're buff on? OK then, nothing to see here, move along. "Hey look, over here! This barbarian doesn't have FoM! Let's get him boys!"

    The funny thing is, I know for a fact the devs understand this. They even came right out and said very plainly and as matter of factly that immunities make it difficult to design challenging content. However, I haven't the slightest clue what they were thinking, when they begin to address it by removing a couple of immunities they start with...

    POISON

    &

    DISEASE

    Are you kidding me? So now people have to carry around potions and drink them, or not, because poison and disease are so benign you don't really have to.


    They already know what needs to be done. We all know what needs to be done. REMOVE all immunities in the game and replace them with resistances.

    Someone with decent saves should have about a 50% chance of resisting something.
    Someone with good saves should have about a 75% chance.
    Someone with stellar saves should have about a 90% chance.

    DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT THE WAY OF D&D!!!!!

    THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY OF D&D.

    D&D is a pen and paper game invented in a time where calculators were big expensive machines. D&D was built around the D20 system because it was something easy and available.

    You succeed on 20, you fail on a 1.

    You have a 1/20 or 5% of chance of failing or succeeding.... no matter what.

    They took away physical damage immunities. AC, although completely useless to most, did give some complete immunity to physical damage. The game is much better off with the new resistance based AC in my opinion.

    I've said this since a few weeks after coming to DDO. The D20 system is the Achilles heel of DDO. I didn't understand at the time just how very right I was. Fast forward a few years and now the only way they have to make things challenging is to make mobs hit so hard that they can kill even a well geared players in 2-3 swings over the course of 1-2 seconds. (I was testing how hard mobs hit in EE GH on my sorc who has ~550 HP, I got double hit by a mob for 228 & 220 then before I could get off a heal he hit me again for 187. I suffered 635 damage nearly instantly.)

    If mobs had the ability to CC players then the element of danger would be restored. Even an uber geared multi-class hybrid with a handful of pastlives would have to be careful as no one is immune to danger. Nor would the mobs be immune!!! That's an important point as well. We, the players, would have our sources of CC back as well. Just like a dual wielding sorcerer with no STR to speak of can peck away at mobs with melee now, so too would everyone with CC abilities be able to use them with at least some measure of success. The current system of spell penetration and difficulty check make many EE mobs effectively immune to most players.

    Alright, I've said my piece, commence the volley of rotten tomatoes and halflings.

  2. #2
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    As far as I am aware fom doesn't stop you from being stunned, symbol of stunninng, danced, earth grabbed. Also nothing stop you from being hit by severe stunning blow, cometfall (unless airsavant or acrobat). Even when you do get fom, death ward nothing stop the mobs your fighting from casting dispel magic, which gets rid of it so that you can than be commanded or held on the spot. Dragon knockdowns, giant stomps, dragon breath's that freeze you, those are forms of cc. Greater shout stuns you, only way to negate these affects are by saving. Just because there are ways of preventing a few forms of cc doesn't stop people from being cc'ed and it doesn't stop clerics/wizards from casting dispel magic on you.

    Poison, blindness, disease? You can have blindness immunity but poison and disease are only bonus to saves now. You can drink a pot but they can put it right back on you, either way if you running with a healer and they cast mass heal on you those affects disappear anyway. Did you want heal to be removed from the game, or it's effects to be removed? If you do get poisoned and you can't get rid of it sometimes it can kill you, some mobs that hit you produce a venomous poison that can do 1000 con damage, if not it still does take away con. If people only have decent saves than they would repeatedly get owned than that would be taking everything you can get cc'ed by and adding another 50% of things you can get cc'ed by.

    P.S you are the only person I've actually seen complain/want to leave because immunities.
    Last edited by moo_cow; 02-27-2013 at 01:39 PM.

  3. #3
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    cow is correct, the 'immunities' that we have left dont make as immune to stuff as they used to.

    fom used to protect against everything, now as of u12, it doesnt protect against stuns, earth grab, cometfall, and dancing (not 100% sure but im fairly positive I've been danced while having fom) which happens occassionally. deathward prevents level drain and instant killing, which imo is good, since level draining without any way to save is kinda messed up, there are mobs (not just beholders, but regular mages) who will level drain you to oblivion and unlike the mobs we fight we dont got no 50+ levels to let be drained.

    also dispel magic is another great example of how buffs arent always the 'go to' to be immune. Its not the 'immunities' that we have that make it hard to design, its also the hardware/software and such the devs are using. the AI of mobs hasnt really improved at all since launch (afaik). if it would improve to where their tactics would balance against the players gear and buffs then it would be good, but removing key components from the players arsenal isnt the way to go.

    now taking away poison/disease immunity did change quite abit at higher levels, Spinner of shadow has a nasty poison that stacks and could easily kill just about anyone if it isnt treated. As does the Green dragon in eveningstar, not to mention the medusa (one of the first mobs who you want to make sure you succeed against their poison, that could easily drain your constitution and kill ya in a single hit) as for diseases, they depend on your saves so if you got high ones and decent stats so you wont be made helpless incase you fail (always that 5%) then they arent all that bad.

  4. #4
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    immunties aren't the real problem
    the uber stat inflation is
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  5. #5
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    The thing is that a lot of what you need to be immune to either neutralize you or outright kill you instantly, none of them make you 10% or 50%, they always go 100% less efficient or nothing, 100% is pretty harsh.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  6. #6

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    DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT THE WAY OF D&D!!!!!
    Why wouldn't we? Immunities are hardcoded into "the way" of D&D.

    Freedom Of Movement:
    This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.
    Protection From Evil:
    Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.
    Death Ward:
    The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.
    Mind Blank:
    The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
    Forbiddance:
    Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically.
    Aura Of Courage:
    Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).
    Divine Health:
    At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
    Purity of Body:
    At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.
    Diamond Body:
    At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
    Dragon Apotheosis:
    At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.
    Elf:
    Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
    I can keep going (a long time) if you like.
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    I am the shadow on the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.

  7. #7
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    You shouldn't hate people for being able to do things that atm you can't pull off. Every game has some players that are far more capable than the other players. DDO also has had it's share of players that are able to do what would seem to be impossible. It started off having those players and it still has those players. They aren't common in the least even among "elitists". You wouldn't be able to cripple their abilities even with whatever suggestions you put forth to do so.

    Aside from that I'm getting sick of the words "elitist" and "casual" getting thrown around. Both of these terms are slurs and neither of them actually applies to any large group of people I've found in the game.

    I've grouped with uber geared people and the only difference between them and any other player I've grouped with is their gear. They accquired that gear simply by running with friends doing quests where gear is found. Nothing special, nothing godlike, and nothing to really brag about or rub people's noses in.

    I've run with casuals and the only difference between them and any other player I've grouped with is their gear. They either aren't interested in chasing the gear or haven't found a guild or group of friends they can run with often in order to get the gear. They aren't handicapped, they aren't bad players, and they've got no cause or right to be envious and spiteful.

  8. #8
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    Saying immunites is in issue is a lie . . . the issue is their AI is ********.

    Old school DM here . . . the first spell cast in my Second Edition campaigns by BOTH sides in every conflict was Dispell Magic.

    But we have effective immunity to charm, greater command, energy drain, insta-kills . . . that's pretty much it. As somebody pointed out there's a lot of other junk thrown at us that still hits us . . . with DCs that are literally insane.

    If anything what Turbine would do if they took you suggestion seriously is remove all our immunities and keep the mob damage the same.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  9. #9
    Community Member diamabel's Avatar
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    Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often. But then you'd still have some undispellable buffs/buffs granted through equipment which would remain unaffected. In general it's the DM's fault if he unbalances his own campaign. Since this is an MMO maybe dispel/debuff spells could get a buff so that the latter category of buffs got suppressed for a certain duration of time.

    The MMO notion to inflate numbers isn't something that's going to end well. It doesn't make the game more challenging, but forces players to focus more on certain type of gear. It were better to improve monsters' AI to act in a smarter and thus more challenging way.
    Last edited by diamabel; 02-27-2013 at 02:52 PM.
    Wanderer (Lyrandar -> Keeper -> Ghallanda)

  10. #10
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    ...

    You succeed on 20, you fail on a 1.

    You have a 1/20 or 5% of chance of failing or succeeding.... no matter what.

    They took away physical damage immunities. AC, although completely useless to most, did give some complete immunity to physical damage. The game is much better off with the new resistance based AC in my opinion.
    ...
    Wait, what?

    AC gave "complete immunity to physical damage" when the mobs hit the player on a natural roll of 20? Not even considering the abomination that is grazing hits?

    Sorry, I think I missed a check somewhere - must have rolled a 1.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamabel View Post
    Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often. But then you'd still have some undispellable buffs/buffs granted through equipment which would remain unaffected. In general it's the DM's fault if he unbalances his own campaign. Since this is an MMO maybe dispel spells could get a buff so that the latter category of buffs got suppressed for a certain duration of time.

    The MMO notion to inflate numbers isn't something that's going to end well. It doesn't make the game more challenging, but forces players to focus more on certain type of gear. It were better to improve monsters' AI to act in a smarter and thus more challenging way.
    The issue is with the insanely inflate mob CRs (CR54 trash is ********) all our stuff would be dispelled every time and we'd have a 5% chance to dispell their buffs.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  12. #12
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    ...
    If anything what Turbine would do if they took you suggestion seriously is remove all our immunities and keep the mob damage and immunities the same.
    Added the part that really bothers me...
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  13. #13

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    The non-beholders who dispel already do it with grim regularity. Using dispel magic to strip buffs is well and fine in PnP, where monsters have limitations on their spellcasting and are not habitually 20 levels higher than the players they are casting against.

    Here? It would mean there'd be no point in using any buffs at all. Remove them from the spell lists entirely. Just a waste of SP for something that will vanish 2 seconds after the first fight starts.
    I am the 'Who' In the call "Who's there!?"
    I am the wind blowing through your hair.
    I am the shadow on the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Thank Crom - otherwise, I'd have a read-only account.
    LOL . . . not referring to you.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
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  15. #15
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The issue is with the insanely inflate mob CRs (CR54 trash is ********) all our stuff would be dispelled every time and we'd have a 5% chance to dispell their buffs.
    This. Very much this.

    I'd like to see Dispel Magic and all of its variations play a greater part in DDO's tactics. Unfortunately, the ridiculous inflation of caster levels (based on CR of the monsters) means that Dispel Magic wouldn't actually be a meaningful tactic for players in most quests - even on Normal, for many of those quests.

  16. #16
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    more disjunction and dispels from mobs.. man that sucks in pnp.. what do I do on my turn, rebuff or heal or damage..

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Why wouldn't we? Immunities are hardcoded into "the way" of D&D.

    (stuff)

    I can keep going (a long time) if you like.
    Yup. We have them in the first place because that is the way of D&D. D&D has more than we have and the dev's still took some away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
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  18. #18
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    ^^^ Is more relevant to the game than this post.

    The symptom of the problem is immunities. The problem is power creep, as they have allowed and even encouraged power creep from the players perspective they are forced to inflate the MOB and BOSS spawns to silly silly levels.

    Trying now to remove immunities to make it more challenging is roughly analogous to alt tabbing out out of the game automatically every time you cast / attack.

    Both ideas are just silly now in the currently hyper-inflated status of the game.


  19. #19
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    I might almost agree with the OP - that its not really fun to have the "challenge" of a mission just be based on a rock-paper-scissors system of what immunities you have vs what effects they can stick - except for two things:

    1) Most of the immunities that are binary, have-or-die kinds of things are pretty ubiquitously available. They dont require being/having a certain class in your party. They dont require specific named gear choices. They dont require running with half your inventory full of scrolls/wands. Heck, with the new augments, a lot of them are now available to slot, basically anywhere you want to. That doesnt make them elitist, that just means you cant run quests naked and expect to win...you have to spend a little time and effort and capital properly equipping yourself for your level.

    2) Many of the immunities arent have-or-die things. Its possible, with enough player skill, just very annoying or slower or more difficult, to do without them. That makes them not required, just extremely convenient, and I think everyone is fine with immunities that improve your experience but arent absolutely prerequisite just to play the game.

  20. #20
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamabel View Post
    Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often.
    When was the last time you ran the Scorrow side of Sands?

    Scorrow Raiders spam dispel!
    NOTE: Scorrow Raiders are NOT casters {the Scorrow Caster types use other spells}.

    I've gone into Sands on Characters of Max Lvl {15} and had EVERY Buff dispelled regularly!

    Pure Casters {Cleric or Wiz} - Not much of an issue - Just don't bother buffing!
    Battle Cleric/ Battle Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Bard {apart from Songs} = BIG ISSUE!

    Any mob in game {not just Scorrow in Sands} that has Dispel as a spell/ability SPAMS it {and with their ultra high CRs compared to our Levels we have no hope of keeping our buffs!

    Dispel Magic is one of the spells in DDO that did not transfer properly from PnP and NEEDS looking at drastically by the Devs!

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