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  1. #61
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazston_the_Invoker View Post
    From a PM I had with Tolero a while back on another exploit that was being discussed:

    Originally Posted by Tolero
    This one is pretty straight forward according to our list:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Exploit List
    Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.

    The description I saw in the thread is not the same as the "cheesy and may be changed" category of:
    "'Perching' on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive."

    In perching (considered simply cheesy rather than something TOS violating in our book), you must still be in some type of danger - if a ranged creature threw something at you or cast an AOE spell on the area you're at, you would get hit by it.

    Hope this helps to clarify.


    In other words, if it helps mitigate damage, as long as you are still "in danger", it is a tactic. If you can effectively go AFK while auto-attacking, whether by melee, range, or spell, then it is an exploit. The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters...that is an exploit, as nobody in the party is in danger or can be harmed.

    Hope that helps, since some people are just being obtuse and unhelpful. Usually those types KNOW it's an exploit, but are either deluded or simply want to make excuses so that they can believe they are "tacticians" rather than just cheaters. Shield wall=tactics...choke point=tactics...getting a mob stuck or perching so they cannot reach you with any attacks=NOT tactics.
    Well, because this is from a PM there is no real way to tell what Tolero said and what you've added as embellishment. However, it appears that the parts in red and blue are from the PM.

    This means that your "In other words" are your understanding of what Tolero wrote. I think you misunderstood.

    Perching where the spells of arcanes can reach you puts you in danger. That makes using the perch not an exploit.

    It does not switch from being "cheesy" to being an "exploit" just because the arcanes are killed. It is still a legitimate perch and fair to use.

    The mobs, unable to shoot or cast back, are not unresponsive. Their response is simply that they are unable to do anything effective against you in that perch and they are too stupid to walk away from danger.

    This is the limit of AI in general. Mobs only know one thing. They are not smart enough to recognize that they are in imminent danger and that they have no response. So they don't move away.

    It is effectively no different than a beat down of a mob that is unable to scroll heals or drink potions. It is simply a by-product of AI.

    In other words, it is how the game works.

    If when taking the perch the players are in danger then they are not using an exploit. Eliminating the danger does not change anything.

    OTOH, if in taking the perch the players are not in danger and cannot ever be or have been in any danger it is what Tolero describes.

    Sorry if that isn't how you understand her. But, if Turbine meant for the "exploit" to not be there they would have removed it. If it has gone on 7 years then that is Turbine's problem and not the players' problem.

    If you think it is an exploit then bug report it. If Turbine fails to act in an update then it becomes tacit approval and confirmation that it is not an exploit.

    Perches are relatively easy to fix. Simply raising them higher than max jump solves the problem. Unfortunately, Turbine's code is so muddled that simple geometry fixes are just as likely to break a whole quest as to fix something they did not intend.

    That too is Turbine's problem and not ours.

    TBH, there is way too much fixation on this "exploit" topic. Take personal responsibility. If it bothers you, don't perch. If you're in a group that does, leave. It really is that simple.

    And, don't be jealous or spiteful to those who run quests differently from you. If they get completions and you do not, don't blame them. There is always more than one way to get thru a quest. Find an alternative.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazston_the_Invoker View Post
    From a PM I had with Tolero a while back on another exploit that was being discussed:

    Originally Posted by Tolero
    This one is pretty straight forward according to our list:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Exploit List
    Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.

    The description I saw in the thread is not the same as the "cheesy and may be changed" category of:
    "'Perching' on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive."

    In perching (considered simply cheesy rather than something TOS violating in our book), you must still be in some type of danger - if a ranged creature threw something at you or cast an AOE spell on the area you're at, you would get hit by it.

    Hope this helps to clarify.


    In other words, if it helps mitigate damage, as long as you are still "in danger", it is a tactic. If you can effectively go AFK while auto-attacking, whether by melee, range, or spell, then it is an exploit. The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters...that is an exploit, as nobody in the party is in danger or can be harmed.

    Hope that helps, since some people are just being obtuse and unhelpful. Usually those types KNOW it's an exploit, but are either deluded or simply want to make excuses so that they can believe they are "tacticians" rather than just cheaters. Shield wall=tactics...choke point=tactics...getting a mob stuck or perching so they cannot reach you with any attacks=NOT tactics.
    So if I go into the tangleroot chain, want a low level chest or a collectible guarded by scorpions or spiders I'm exploiting the game by bringing ranged weapons instead of jumping into the pits? Just as an example.

    It's not always easy to determine an exploit vs quest design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
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  3. #63
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    While waiting on the patch that will fix celestia, I'm playing NWN2.

    You know that their mobs are running away from evard's black tentacles and walls of fire, even if I'm playing on non pvp setting, with my party standing inside. Mobs of 2005 game, which recieved last patch in 2007 or 2008 are smarter than DDO's mobs...
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  4. #64

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    Mobs of 2005 game, which recieved last patch in 2007 or 2008 are smarter than DDO's mobs...
    It's a lot easier to have the computer horsepower to operate a more intelligent 5-10 monsters simultaneously than it is to operate 20,000 of them.

    NWN gives you your own dedicated server. If you and your group were the only people playing DDO, then it too could have much better AI without the game lagging into slideshow mode for every single player all the time.
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  5. #65
    Community Member Taojeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    It's a lot easier to have the computer horsepower to operate a more intelligent 5-10 monsters simultaneously than it is to operate 20,000 of them.

    NWN gives you your own dedicated server. If you and your group were the only people playing DDO, then it too could have much better AI without the game lagging into slideshow mode for every single player all the time.
    Yep. It is a whole different ball park for online games. Not quite sure why people do not get this... Hopefully, If elder scrolls online gets the giant server right then can then make AI clusters that connect to the main server and only handle AI for instance quests. Gaming has got complex enough that there needs to be several tiers of services handling different jobs. The communication between layers needs to be fast and efficient. Maybe its time to create a gaming coding scheme that is not owned by any one company that can be leveraged open source.

  6. #66
    Community Member zichant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    While challenge is fun, if the only challenge is to the healer's pot supply, it is often more considerate to complete the quest in the safest way possible.

    Edit: I don't know what specifically was done. True exploits are wrong, but there are many tricks that are not considered exploits that people call exploits in a misinformed way.
    It was definitely a true exploit. Unless you don't consider getting a boss stuck in a wall so that we are untouchable to be a true exploit.

  7. #67
    Community Member 9Crows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zichant View Post
    It was definitely a true exploit. Unless you don't consider getting a boss stuck in a wall so that we are untouchable to be a true exploit.
    like tank pits used in every war since tanks came on the scene....i only care about fun if its funner killing something using a "exploit" ill do that.if its not i wont

    this is just a game with no reward but fun ...period ...nothing more

    anything that doesnt hurt another player and increases my fun is okay

    why? because thats what i pay turbine for ...fun ....thier rules are supposed to increase my fun ..when they dont... well fun is job 1

  8. #68
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    ....SIGH....

    that is all I can do after reading what some people wrote in this thread. Some people really are sitting on a high horse or preaching from their soap boxes.

    Whatever turbine decides to call an exploit is only to cover their own butt. Plain and simple. Their designers missed something or did not properly test a feature and someone smarter than them was able to figure out a way to use that to their advantage. It's done EVERYDAY in all walks of life. The issue here is that once someone figures out how to do something they brag about it then all the less intelligent people who couldn't figure it out are now doing it and the all hell breaks loose. Turbine then is forced to fix the issue because everyone is crying and complaining how it is "unfair."

    Unfair...when did this all of a sudden become the norm? Life isn't fair people. It's not supposed to be, but if you played dodgeball in school you'd know that it's natural selection, only the strong survive! Sharpen your wit and use the lump 3 feet above your butt to your own advantage and stop crying that everything is unfair.

    I don't blame Turbine. They have to cater to the masses. Like in update 17. Cater to the masses and make GH easier. Let's make Tor easy and able to be solo'd. Let's make this MMO (massive-MULTIPLAYER online) solo friendly. Nobody has to group up ever! all quests can be done solo! let's take crucible out of flagging so it is solo friendly, and while we are at it we will not force them to have to kill all 3 dragons either so they can run the raid. Let's take any and all Multiplayer aspect out of this game to cater to the masses. It's not turbines fault...It's the MASSES fault.

    So before we go blaming turbine for everything and saying that turbine sucks maybe we should look at the majority of the people who play this game and wonder...Turbine is catering to the masses so maybe It's not turbine who sucks, it's the people who suck.

    Complete the quests how you see fit. If you don't like how someone else is doing something, go on your merry way but stop getting on the forums and crying me a river of tears that you don't like it. Strike the word "unfair" from your vocabulary you'll be a better human being for doing so.

  9. #69
    Community Member zichant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    Actually, I think turbine defined it as causing the mobs to freeze up and become unresponsive, not simply not being able to damage you.

    I will need to dig up the reference at some point.

    I knew it was unresponsive because I targeted it and typed /wave and the boss didn't wave back

    Seems kind of pathetic that many people here in this thread don't seem to know the difference between strategy (pulling 1 mob at a time, kiting, putting yourself in a safe position, even buffs were mentioned) and cheating (intentionally getting a boss stuck in a wall).

  10. #70
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    There was an old thread buried somewhere, you may search for it, where a dev gave some toughts on this.
    It basically said using the enviroment was fine, but making the mob powerless wasn't, as was mentioned here.

    This has some room for gray areas but give you the general idea. Visible ledges are fine, invisible ones are bugs.
    Lots of geometry perches have been removed from the game since they are not intended.
    (and blind spots, such as those with certain dragons)

    Needless to say finding those spots can be fun, some adventurous folk have even gone off map.
    Just keep in mind these things gotta be reported for fixing, so it's all on your own discretion.

    Said post had other gray areas, like not saying anything about entering a quest that someone else opened.
    The rule was you couldn't bypass flagging, but that alone doesn't make it clear when flagging isn't involved.

    Another rule in that post was to not take chests when you weren't present, whereas is common to invite ppl from the LFM or chat.
    The thing with this is that if turbine bothered with this then people would just need to step in before completion.

    These are just examples, so that the discussion can be more clear. In the end Turbine is the only one that can deem anything off limits.
    Last edited by donfilibuster; 02-28-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  11. #71
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    sorry bud but if it's in the world, ima use it. It's like sliding off a cliff in real life and somehow miraculously theirs a rope that's just nailed into the cliff side right behind you.

    It shouldn't be there, you didn't put it there, you started that rock climb to prove you could do it. But i'll be damned if my ass was gonna go for a free fall when theirs something their to stop it.

    Morals, spirit, challenge. Hey go crazy man, it's your gaming experience. However unless your over here, sitting in front of this screen and while your at it punching in your master card for that content, I don't give a damn. For that matter deep down, though they wouldn't admit it (or have they? Idk seems like it could happen on the forums lol) those devs prolly don't either.

    At least that's the conclusion ive arrived at watching people sell products for cash in game and on site.
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  12. #72
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    So if I go into the tangleroot chain, want a low level chest or a collectible guarded by scorpions or spiders I'm exploiting the game by bringing ranged weapons instead of jumping into the pits? Just as an example.

    It's not always easy to determine an exploit vs quest design.
    It's not hard. If they had ranged weapons they could hit you. The fact that they don't was a choice by the devs and your strategy is just that. If on the other hand standing there the ranged attack for these beasties could not hit you because of invisible barriers and yet you could hit them, well that's an exploit.

    I think everyone knows what an exploit is if they are honest with themselves. People however are sometimes rather dishonest with themselves because they don't want to feel like a "cheater" and want to pretend the are uber while taking advantage of a bug.

    I think everyone knows the saying "exploit early and exploit often", and if you want to do that, I don't really care too much, but stop pretending you aren't cheating.

  13. #73
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I do not know what is the exploit you are referring to Gkar, but I have noticed there is a segment of people in game that just want easy button victory with no effort for the loot and they want to avoid challenge at all cost to the point that they avoid anything that is remotely challenging or changing their characters slightly to meet the challenge. I have made up my mind that I have no interest in running with those people. See you in game OP.
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  14. #74
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Creating a situation in which you can damage a mob but they can not damage use has been defined by Turbine as an exploit.

    That help you understand the difference?
    Finally, a way to stop those annoying little pewpew rangers from kiting all over the map, just report them!

  15. #75
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Creating a situation in which you can damage a mob but they can not damage use has been defined by Turbine as an exploit.

    That help you understand the difference?
    And therin lies half the issue we face on this subject.

    I once got a telling off for standing on a ledge and using a bow to shoot a wolf.... technicaly thats an exploit according to ddo's letter of rules, and its bloody rediculous that it is.

    Of course thats EXACTLY how an archer should behave. attack from a position of advantage where the enemy cant threaten you becuase either:
    a: they cant get to you at all.
    b: they cant get to you in time.

    Using terrain is strategy, not exploiting - atleast to the vast majority of players.
    The reason is simple - the terrain was designed that way deliberately, If it looks like you SHOULD be able to get up on a ledge, and it looks like said ledge is nice and solid and would hold your weight... its strategy.

    However...

    some times you can do things like balance on a lampshade, you can jump on objects that are not supposed to be reachable or hold a person - thats exploiting, and its prety obvious.


    Personly I go with my gut - If where im standing feels like i should be able to stand here physicaly.. then im using terrain strategy, If some one is perched half way up a shear wall stood on a wall lamp..... they are a kobold.
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  16. #76
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    Personly I go with my gut - If where im standing feels like i should be able to stand here physicaly.. then im using terrain strategy, If some one is perched half way up a shear wall stood on a wall lamp..... they are a kobold.
    Or the ceiling, like that ninja kobold trolling Arlos. kobold remember waterworks!

  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    While waiting on the patch that will fix celestia, I'm playing NWN2.

    You know that their mobs are running away from evard's black tentacles and walls of fire, even if I'm playing on non pvp setting, with my party standing inside. Mobs of 2005 game, which recieved last patch in 2007 or 2008 are smarter than DDO's mobs...
    Ive been saying this for years, and get piled on heavily with "the code from that game and this game arent the same so we cant presume that it would be easy to make the AI smarter in this game".

    To which Im like "yeah the code in that game is a decade more primitive - its like going from CD players back to edison cylinders rather than advancing to mp3 players like we could, by choice".
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #78
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Creating a situation in which you can damage a mob but they can not damage use has been defined by Turbine as an exploit.

    That help you understand the difference?
    Its not really an argument of definition any longer, and hasnt been for quite some time. Its an argument of enforcement, or lack thereof. If they will not enforce the rule when obvious exploits happen, it enforces the mentality of "do it early and do it often" and people justify doing so by claiming that if Turbine doesnt come right out and tell us specific situations are exploits, its legal until they tell us otherwise. If they would set an example a few times on specific issues, most of the rest of the "do it early and do it often" crowd would fall in line.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #79
    Hero Musouka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not really an argument of definition any longer, and hasnt been for quite some time. Its an argument of enforcement, or lack thereof. If they will not enforce the rule when obvious exploits happen, it enforces the mentality of "do it early and do it often" and people justify doing so by claiming that if Turbine doesnt come right out and tell us specific situations are exploits, its legal until they tell us otherwise. If they would set an example a few times on specific issues, most of the rest of the "do it early and do it often" crowd would fall in line.
    But we all know they hold the EULA that gives them sole proprietorship over our accounts on whatever whim they feel necessary... Do you really want to be the first one as an example?
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Creating a situation in which you can damage a mob but they can not damage use has been defined by Turbine as an exploit.

    That help you understand the difference?
    You should stop making stuff up.

    It's not very nice.

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