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    Default Damage Reduction

    I'd like to redo the wiki page on damage reduction, but it's much easier to deal with multiple edits/previews here on the forums. So the work-in-progress will be done here in this thread.





    DAMAGE REDUCTION

    Damage Reduction (DR) is a measure of how much weapon damage a character can ignore before losing hit points. The DR value is subtracted from each incoming hit, to a minimum of zero damage received. If you have a DR 10 and get hit for 9 points of damage, you take no damage at all. If you have a DR 10 and get hit for 15 points of damage, you only take 5 points of damage. DR applies only to physical weapon damage, although there is a similar concept of Resist Energy that applies to energy/elemental damage from spells, enchanted weapons elemental damage, and non-physical traps.

    Damage Reduction is applied before the reduction from your Physical Resistance Rating.


    Active vs Passive

    Passive DR is shown on your character sheet in the area below your ability scores. Multiple DR entries may be listed on your sheet, but only the highest applicable passive DR applies. The actual DR used against an attack is reported in the combat log as final/net damage dealt followed by damage reduced.

    Active DR applies when a you actively block by holding down the shift key. Active DR is displayed as "Blocking DR" in the expandable area of your inventory sheet. (Click the "Details" button on the bottom right to open it.) Active DR cannot be bypassed except by melee attacks from behind; benefits of blocking apply only to melee attacks against the character's front 180°. Furthermore, Active DR stacks with Passive DR. (Active DR stacks with only the highest passive DR that applies.)


    Passive DR - Sources

    • Barbarians get +1 DR/- at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 and a +1 Enhancement available at levels 3 and 7
    • Favored Souls are granted DR10/X at level 20, where X is a type of damage based on their Faith enhancements that are chosen at level 1
    • Monks gain DR10/Epic at level 20 via the granted feat Perfect Self
    • Warforged Adamantine Body, Improved DR Feats, or Warforged Improved DR enhancements (DR/Adamantine)
    • Stacking Half-Elf Improved Damage Reduction with the Barbarian Dilettante Feat (DR 1/- or 2/-).
    • Stoneskin spell (DR 10/Adamantine)
    • Angelskin spell (DR5/Evil)
    • Ironskin Chant (DR5/-) song from Warchanter Bard
    • House Deneith Defender airship buff (DR 1/-)
    • Adamantine Armor DR/- (1 from shields or light armor, 2 from medium armor, and 3 from heavy armor)
    • Item effects (Invulnerability, Axeblock, Hammerblock, Spearblock, Bracing, Bolstering, Buttressing, etc...)
    • Named items (see Passive DR - Types below)

    The Warforged Feats and Enhancements that improve DR are special cases. These benefits explicitly say they grant DR/Adamantine or improve your existing DR/Adamantine. They stack with your single strongest other source of Adamantine DR, whether it comes from a Warforged racial benefit or something else.


    Passive DR - Types
    • DR/- (items) cannot be bypassed by anything. For example, this is the kind of DR that elementals have. This effect can be simulated by wearing a combination of axeblock, spearblock and hammerblock items.
    • DR/Adamantine (items)
    • DR/Bludgeoning (items) can be simulated by equipping both an Axeblock and Spearblock item. This is a common DR profile for new players, equipping Spearbane and Furor's Hide. Monsters that deal bludgeoning damage include Trolls, Bugbears?, ...?
    • DR/Piercing (items): Monsters that deal piercing damage include Sahuagin, Kobolds, Spiders, ...?
    • DR/Slashing (items): Monsters that deal slashing damage include Orcs, Hobgoblins, ...?
    • Axeblock (items) only blocks slashing damage. Technically it is DR/Bludgeon or Piercing.
    • Hammerblock (items) only blocks bludgeoning damage. Technically it is DR/Slashing or Piercing.
    • Spearblock (items) only blocks piercing damage. Technically it is DR/Slashing or Bludgeon. This is a particularly useful DR for brand new players, as most of the enemies in Korthos as well as low level harbor quests do piercing damage.
    • Invulnerability (items) is DR/Magic, which can only be bypassed by weapons with an enhancement bonus. As a general rule, mobs start using magical weapons in the 8-12 level range. That makes the Invulnerability item effect start to lose its luster around level 10. Invulnerability is easy to craft and the effect alone leaves an item ML1, making Invulnerability the preferred armor effect for experienced players during low levels.
    • DR/Good (items) can only be bypassed by Good Outsiders. The only Good Outsider enemies in the game are Eladrin in the quest Running with the Devils, and they almost never melee attack anyway, preferring to spam Ray of Light attacks which are spell-like abilities that aren't subject to DR. This makes DR/Good functionally equivalent to DR/-.
    • DR/Evil (items) can only be bypassed by Evil Outsiders. All evil outsiders will bypass DR/Evil EXCEPT Bezekira, Hags, Jariliths, Rakshasas, Tieflings, ...? Monsters shooting evil arrows will NOT bypass DR/Evil.
    • DR/Lawful (items) can only be bypassed by Lawful Outsiders. (unconfirmed)
    • DR/Chaotic (items) can only be bypassed by Chaotic Outsiders. (unconfirmed)
    • DR/Epic (items) can only be bypassed by epic raid bosses. These include Velah, Lailat, Xy'zzy and Spawn of Xy'zzy.
    For an example, consider a cleric wearing Epic Cavalry Plate (DR/Chaotic) and Ghost-Waking Cloak (DR/Evil) using Light and Darkness (DR/Epic) for a shield. If running Epic Zawabi's Revenge, Queen Lailat will bypass all of this DR by virtue of being a Chaotic Evil Outsider epic raid boss. If we switched from Light and Darkness to a Wall of Wood (DR/Slashing), Lailat would still fully bypass because her khopeshes deal slashing damage.


    Damage Reduction Scaling

    Damage Reduction Scaling works similarly to Dungeon Scaling, except it applies to damage reduction, and applies to both players and monsters. Note unlike Dungeon Scaling this only happens in Casual, Normal and Hard Dungeons. Not elite/raid/epic (Dungeon scaling does apply on elite).

    Player versus monster

    This scaling helps players who otherwise can't bypass or overcome a monsters damage reduction at all, still deal some damage. For any physical attack that would otherwise be completely negated, this scaling allows them to deal 50%/25% of the damage they would have otherwise dealt if the enemy had no damage reduction.
    • Normal: DR scaling fully applies - you deal 50% of the damage if your attack would of otherwise been negated.
    • Hard: DR scaling applies, but at half strength - you only deal 25% of the damage.
    • Elite/Epic/Any Raid: DR Scaling is disabled. Attacks may be reduced to zero.


    Examples (Normal difficulty):
    • Player swings his +4 Greatsword at a Ghostly Skeleton which has DR100/Good. He would have dealt 40 damage, with all 40 points being stopped by the DR. However due to DR scaling, he instead deals 20 damage to the skeleton.
    • Player swings his +4 Greatsword at a Ghostly Skeleton which has DR100/Good. This time he would have dealt 135 damage. Since this is above the damage reduction of the enemy, scaling does not need to happen, thus he deals 35 damage.


    Monsters versus player

    If a player has some form of damage reduction a monster can't bypass, it's only applied without scaling being taking into account, if that amount would result in less damage then just the scaling. This means that damage reduction can seem far less effective when solo in scalable dungeons, as enemy damage is heavily scaled down, but this only happens after damage reduction.

    Examples:
    • Monsters attack is calculated out to deal 20 damage, if no dungeon scaling was in effect at all. Player has DR10/Silver and the monster doesn't bypass this. The player is in the dungeon solo, as such the monster only deals 20% of his regular damage, thus 4 damage. The calculation is applied like this:
      • A) 20 damage dealt dungeon scaling scales that damage down to 4 points.
      • B) Damage reduction is calculated ignoring scaling. 20 damage, 10 was stopped. 10 damage is dealt.
      • C) The lowest of the 2 damage values is applied. This is displayed in a masked way to fool the player: Enemy hit you for 4 damage, 10 was stopped.

    Essentially damage reduction does nothing for the player in this scenario due to how it is coded.

  2. #2

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    Reserved.

    Hopefully I won't need a second post, since I'm hoping to get everything on a single wiki page. But just in case.

  3. #3
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Nice work

    For the purposes of the wiki, it might be cool to cite things like materials that grant increased damage (densewood appears to do this, but the wiki doesn't state that).

    Listing some player sources of passive DR would be nice, i.e. (epic) Golden Greaves, epic Ring of the Djinn, epic Cloak of Night, Bracing/Bolstering/Buttressing, (Greater) Reinforcement, etc.

    Another list in the active blocking portion of shields that have high active DR would be helpful.

    Another thing you might want to mention at the end would be things that are similar to DR, i.e. boon of undeath, lifeshield/bodyfeeder, concordant opposition, demonic shield, etc. It might fall under the header of, "For more sources of damage mitigation, see:" rather than 'damage reduction' purely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    For the purposes of the wiki, it might be cool to cite things like materials that grant increased damage (densewood appears to do this, but the wiki doesn't state that).
    I'm unclear on this. Could you elaborate?

    Listing some player sources of passive DR would be nice, i.e. (epic) Golden Greaves, epic Ring of the Djinn, epic Cloak of Night, Bracing/Bolstering/Buttressing, (Greater) Reinforcement, etc.
    Originally I wanted to include sublists for each type, but I quickly realized that there are a lot of items that grant DR. The solution I came up with is putting in small hotlinks "(items)" at the start of each passive type that link directly to the wiki item enchantment lists. The item enchantment page is a bit slow-loading, but for any given passive dr type, if you click the items link you'll get a complete (and apparently up-to-date, even including U17) list of all named items that offer that effect.

    I even included an items list for hammerblock, which is currently not on any named items. If ever some are introduced and added to the wiki item list, the link should work. Right now it appears to just redirect to the main list.

    Another list in the active blocking portion of shields that have high active DR would be helpful.
    That list is quite large, but I can certainly include an (items) link for shields. That's a good thought.

    Another thing you might want to mention at the end would be things that are similar to DR, i.e. boon of undeath, lifeshield/bodyfeeder, concordant opposition, demonic shield, etc. It might fall under the header of, "For more sources of damage mitigation, see:" rather than 'damage reduction' purely.
    This is a great idea. I'll definitely try to work this in.

  5. #5
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Default

    Think you are missing a section on notation, which would help clean up your 'Passive DR - Types' list.

    Something like:

    -----------

    Notation:
    Damage reduction is listed by the type of damage that bypasses it, not by the type of damage it stops.

    Examples:
    The DR 5/Evil granted by the paladin spell, 'Angel skin' blocks all damage but damage typed as 'evil'.

    The DR granted by an axeblock item is shown as DR 5 / Piercing or Bludgeoning. Showing that any any piercing or bludgeoning typed attack will bypass the damage reduction.

    Damage reduction listed as DR X/-, like that granted by barbarian levels, is not bypassed by anything.

    -----------------

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Think you are missing a section on notation, which would help clean up your 'Passive DR - Types' list.
    The "Passive DR - Types" section is intended to detail what mobs bypass each dr type. This information is currently not available on wiki. The notation is incidental, really.

    My motivation goes back to when I first saw the Ghost-Waking cloak on the lama forums and started wondering what DR/Evil actually blocks. One thread got quite heated, with one person (quite reasonably) pointing out that there are 1200 evil mobs in the game, so therefore dr/evil probably isn't all that useful.

    Finally I sat down and spent an entire session testing what exactly breaks DR/Evil. That thread is linked in my signature, and includes a couple screenshots later in the thread.

    Now that those results are in, I'd like to update wiki so that when somebody sees, for example, Ring of the Djinn (DR 15/Lawful) and wonders "Is DR/Lawful any good?" they can go to the Damage Reduction wiki page and see at a glance exactly what breaks DR/Lawful.

    The notation only scratches the surface of what questions people have about DR. As another example, up until tonight (when I did some forum searches) I assumed DR/Epic was bypassed by any epic mob. The fact that only epic raid bosses can break it changes its utility quite a bit.

  7. #7
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Default

    Mostly, the 'notation' section would clean up the Passive DR list into something like:

    Passive DR - Types

    DR/-
    Granted by <list>
    Bypassed by <list>

    DR/Adamantine
    Granted by <list>
    Bypassed by <list>

    etc.

    So that they all had a uniform format that would make them easier to edit. Explaining the notation ahead of time means that your list can be presented a bit cleaner.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Mostly, the 'notation' section would clean up the Passive DR list into something like:

    Passive DR - Types

    DR/-
    Granted by <list>
    Bypassed by <list>

    DR/Adamantine
    Granted by <list>
    Bypassed by <list>

    etc.

    So that they all had a uniform format that would make them easier to edit. Explaining the notation ahead of time means that your list can be presented a bit cleaner.
    I'm not seeing your vision. Maybe you could put together what you're thinking with the data already present in the OP?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Explaining the notation ahead of time means that your list can be presented a bit cleaner.
    I think where I'm confused by what you're saying is that I don't see any notations in the list. It seems to me that you see the list as:

    DR/Evil: bypassed by evil
    DR/Magic: bypassed by magic

    But that's not the information in the list, nor is it even related to the list. Such a list would be unhelpful at best. In the list in the OP, those notations aren't actually there to remove. Instead, the way it's listed now is:

    DR/Evil: bypassed by a specific subtype of monsters: Evil Outsiders
    DR/Magic: bypassed by weapons with an enhancement bonus; mobs typically get these around level 8-12

    In fact, nowhere in the entire OP do I ever explicitly refer to what the notation is or how it works. This is probably an oversight that should be corrected in the very first section.

    If you could put together the list as you envision it that would help a bunch. I can't wrap my head around what you're describing.

  10. #10

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    DR/Good (items) can only be bypassed by Good Outsiders. The only Good Outsider enemies in the game are Eladrin in the quest Running with the Devils, and they almost never melee attack anyway, preferring to spam Ray of Light attacks which are spell-like abilities that aren't subject to DR. This makes DR/Good functionally equivalent to DR/-.
    The eladrin don't break /Good. I checked this with my Drow FvS who carried 10/Good DR from the capstone. They are the good equivalent of tieflings, and don't have that overwhelming goodness required. The only good outsider in the entire game that would be capable of getting past /Good is the Archon in Wrath Of The Flame, whom you cannot fight.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Default

    Something like:

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Passive DR - Types
    • DR/-
      • Granted by: (items)
      • Bypassed by: Nothing

      DR/Adamantine
      • Granted by: (items)
      • Bypassed by: Some Duergar?

      DR/Bludgeoning
      • Granted by: (items)
      • Bypassed by: Monsters that deal bludgeoning damage include Trolls, Bugbears?, ...?
    And I thought scaling worked more like this:
    Sample scaling: Player takes 50% damage
    Sample monster damage: 20 points

    No DR: player sees 20 * .5 = 10 damage.

    With DR 10/- player sees : (20 - 10) * .5 = 5 damage

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    Default

    didnt notice anything about ranged attacks and dr. Passive DR is halved for ranged damage unless it is peircing DR. ie, adamantine DR 10 will only block 5 damage from ranged attacks. DR/10 piercing will block 10 damage from ranged though.

    might also apply to active, but i cant remember now.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    The eladrin don't break /Good. I checked this with my Drow FvS who carried 10/Good DR from the capstone. They are the good equivalent of tieflings, and don't have that overwhelming goodness required. The only good outsider in the entire game that would be capable of getting past /Good is the Archon in Wrath Of The Flame, whom you cannot fight.
    They do, it's just extremely rare that they actually use melee attacks. Took me forever to get them to do it, but eventually they did and it did bypass my DR/Good (but not my DR/Lawful.)

    Most of the time they attack with the Ray of Light SLA, which isn't subject to DR. Occasionally they'll shoot an arrow at you, but ranged attacks can't break any kind of alignment DR.

    After five solid minutes of running up and standing right next to various eladrin, I finally got one to hit me with a melee attack once. It bypassed the DR on my cloak of night, but not my thaarak bracelet.

    EDIT: It now occurs to me that Tieflings probably break DR/Evil; the only tests I did were with their ranged attacks before I was aware that ranged attacks can't break DR/Alignment.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    And I thought scaling worked more like this:
    Sample scaling: Player takes 50% damage
    Sample monster damage: 20 points

    No DR: player sees 20 * .5 = 10 damage.

    With DR 10/- player sees : (20 - 10) * .5 = 5 damage
    I'm not an authority on DR scaling; I just lifted that part directly from wiki word for word.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Something like:
    So remove the editorial comments, and display the same info on 3 lines per type instead of 1. My only issue with that is that the wiki page is super-long already, so tripling the size of the "Types" section (which is a new section compared to the current article) gives me pause.

    I think best of all would be to create a separate page for each type of DR, and then just have a straight list of the DR types:


    Clicking the "DR/..." link would open the detail page, which could then include the list of mobs it works on, whether those mobs matter (eg: Tieflings may bypass but it wouldn't matter because they mostly range, etc...), and any editorial comments like "Invulnerability works until roughly 8-12."

    I'm not sure I have the confidence to just add a dozen brand-new pages to wiki, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea. I agree with you that the list in the OP is cluttered.

    EDIT: Heck, the (items) links wouldn't even be needed, being a more natural fit on the details page.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    didnt notice anything about ranged attacks and dr. Passive DR is halved for ranged damage unless it is peircing DR. ie, adamantine DR 10 will only block 5 damage from ranged attacks. DR/10 piercing will block 10 damage from ranged though.

    might also apply to active, but i cant remember now.
    My testing contradicts this hypothesis.

    DR 5/Evil applied 5 DR to ranged attacks, for example.

  18. #18
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Some clarification, i.e. densewood

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm unclear on this. Could you elaborate?
    I meant to say "increased damage reduction." It appears to me that densewood shields have a higher active blocking DR. I noticed this when disjuncting many types of large guild augment bucklers for use on arcanes (no spell failure). Don't have screenshots but I think that densewood gives an extra 1-2 active blocking DR.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I even included an items list for hammerblock, which is currently not on any named items. If ever some are introduced and added to the wiki item list, the link should work. Right now it appears to just redirect to the main list.
    Good point, the only similar effect I can think of on a named item are spearblock on (e)Shield of the Scorpion/(e)Bramblecasters and axeblock on (e)Silkenmail.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That list is quite large, but I can certainly include an (items) link for shields. That's a good thought.
    In terms of me mentioning shields with abnormally high DR, many named shields including the Orchard shields of legends appear to have DR higher than equivalent minlvl counterparts. I could be wrong though. It might be a little research intensive but I suspect lots of updated named (heroic and elite) shields have higher DR than normal.

    Ex: large shields disjuncted have DR2
    Coronation shield (enhancement+4) has DR9

    A non-named large shield with enhancement+4 should have a DR6, if I'm not mistaken.

    Perhaps all named shields have a base active DR boost? I know Levik's/Lorrik's were nerfed a little at one point and epic shields gained a boost over them, but I'm not clear on the details.
    Last edited by SealedInSong; 02-26-2013 at 06:22 PM. Reason: html typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My testing contradicts this hypothesis.

    DR 5/Evil applied 5 DR to ranged attacks, for example.
    hmmmm, perhaps it changed over the years, or I am mistaken. sadly, I dont have time to check this again since it was years ago when I first did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm not an authority on DR scaling; I just lifted that part directly from wiki word for word.
    Semi necro. Just saw that on the wiki and didn't think it was right. My testing sure seems to indicate that the wacky explanation on the wiki explaining how DR and scaling work on damage to PCs is wrong. About 200 hits from Orc Rangers in the Cerulean hills strongly indicate they do 1d6+3 (DR 4 only blocks 4 for no damage, DR 6 blocks 4,5,6 for no damage). Percentages break down into multiples of 1/6th. Twisted Talisman did 17 of 25, or 68%. Values seen line up with that with a DR of 4, applied to 1d6+3, then scaled by 0.68:

    Dmg (Input - DR4)*0.68 Seen Output %
    0 14%
    1 33.33%
    2 36.84%
    3 15.79%
    4 0
    5 0.68
    6 1.36
    7 2.04
    8 2.72
    9 3.4

    Argh. Table looks like arse to me. But anyway, with scaling not reducing anything to 0 if it wasn't already, the truncation bins everything as expected from applying DR and then scaling to the result. Of the incoming 1d6+3, one value gets mapped to a 0, two to a 1, two to a 2, and one to a 3. Nothing funny like what the wiki says right now. The no-DR numbers also support the original damage being 1d6+3 with 0.68 scaling: a range of 2-6 with the binning agreeing with truncation.
    Last edited by Frotz; 05-25-2014 at 06:36 PM.

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