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  1. #1
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    Default Is weapon proficiency ever a non-issue?

    Now that I have Veteran 7, my characters will almost always be starting with a BAB that exceeds the -4 "to hit" penalty.

    If we just play "Normal" content, to what extent is that penalty really noticeable, particularly if you have a high STR for melee or high Dex for ranged? Is it a really noticeable penalty at higher levels?

    Thanks for the advice.

  2. #2
    Community Member FrozenNova's Avatar
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    It's going to be very rare that taking the penalty is a better option than using something you're proficient with.
    Last edited by FrozenNova; 02-20-2013 at 08:33 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    In some recent-ish update, I think maybe with the expansion launch, the non-proficiency penalty was changed from -4 to-hit to -25% chance to hit.

    It matters a lot now at all levels.
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  4. #4
    Community Member dredre9987's Avatar
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    due to changes with AC and to hit calculations it is now a 25% penalty not -4
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  5. #5
    Community Member kittikatgurl's Avatar
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    Given your title was "is weapon proficiency ever a non-issue", i can say that it is almost always a non-issue for me because i play primarily healers who don't hit things. So, I use tower shields without proficiency and occasionally a random dwarven axe or long sword that just happens to have a good caster mutation on it. Of course, I don't think this is very relevant to you.

    I didn't know they had changed it to -25% to hit, that really sucks, but yeah, a one in four miss chance would suck at any level and never be worth it.
    Last edited by kittikatgurl; 02-20-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    it will be an issue depending the difference between the damage of the non-proficient weapon and the best weapon you have/are proficient

    maybe that 25%hit loss ends in losing more dps, let's say using a +1 khopesh or a blank longsword
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  7. #7
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    I did not know that it was -25% until now. Yes, that is a big deal. I'm not thinking that the game is showing this anywhere, unless I missed it. I'm pretty sure it just said -4 on my character sheet.

    Thanks for letting me know.

  8. #8
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    I didnt know about -25% either.

  9. #9
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    I didnt know about -25% either.
    Join the club. Huh...didn't know that at all.

  10. #10
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    depends on the weapon.

    2 handers, and certain special 1 handers (BS and DA) you won't get splash damage, I think.

    non proficient with repeating xbows means you shoot like a standard xbow.

  11. #11
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dredre9987 View Post
    due to changes with AC and to hit calculations it is now a 25% penalty not -4
    That's right. I forgot all about that. But has anyone tested this lately? Is it really translating across that way or is it softened by the overall 'to hit' formula?


    It doesn't seem to affect my to hit at low/mid levels much. Just anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure I would notice it more if it was a -25% off of my 'to hit'.

  12. #12
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    It is -20%, not 25.

    Easy way to test is find two weapons with the same enhancement value that you possess no feat/enhancement that boost to-hit (eg, a mundane club and a mundane kama on a non-slash specced character). Search a specific mob that you don't miss only in a 1 (usually, named rares are better for that), and write down the number where you start missing with the club. Switch to the kama, and test again. It should be 4 numbers higher.

    The to-hit formula now is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2 if you are proficient. For players, this number is rounded to the nearest 0.05 number (so we can use a d20 roll). For monsters, it isn't. There are hard caps at 0.05 and 0.95.

    Using this formula is easy to define that if you have any means to LOWER the mob AC, it is twice as effective than the same number as a bonus to hit.
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  13. #13
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    DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

    At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused

  14. #14
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    In game it shows as -4 to hit.

  15. #15
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

    At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused
    When we were first told the new formula, back in MoTU Beta, they initially gave it as a +25% for proficiency.

    Then when it went Live and Ranged was broken because the proficiency bonus was missing the Devs mentioned that the +25% that we thought we were supposed to get had been changed to +20%, but they had simply forgotten to tell us until that time.

    The current formula is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2)+.2 for proficiency, just like Nibel said. As least as far as the last time the Devs confirmed it.

    There are a few places where the documentation hasn't been updated.

  16. #16
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Combat is no longer D20 based. This is why you don't see the 25% hit chance. If you look for some of the MotU AC posts, occasionally you will see someone post the new formula. From memory the 25% proficiency bonus is added at the end of the new equation.

    The two groups who see the most benefit from the new equation are casters (they can hit things now on rolls other than 20) and casual upper end players (who don't need to grind the +hit gear).

    So the bonus looks something like this (For reference only. Actual formula is unknown from the last posts I read which were posts leading to the launch of MotU after the NDA was lifted).

    Proficient = (D20 + bonuses) + 25%
    Non-Proficient = (D20 + Bonuses) - 4

  17. #17
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

    At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused
    The trouble is we got two statements from devs at the time, 20% and 25%. To me 20% makes more sense because 4 * 5% = 20%, but who knows.

  18. #18

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    In a related tangent my understanding is that non weapon proficiency does not matter on the offhand because of the changes to how dual wielding works.

    I'm not basing this off personal knowledge, but off something I was told ingame by another player, and am seeking confirmation.

    As it was explained to me a few updates back melee dual wielding was causing combat lag so they changed the offhand from a to hit roll to a % chance to proc/hit. As such your to hit and thus weapon proficiency became mute on the offhand.

    Is this accurate? If so I'd like to wield a feated proficiency Khopesh in the mainhand and a non proficient scimitar in the offhand for a higher critical threat range for procs such as radiance.

  19. #19
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    If you are not profficent with a weapon, (say a Bastard Sword) you suffer -4 to hit. If you duel wield you suffer a % to produce an off hand attack. But even with duel wield you still suffer a "TO Hit" penality on your second weapon.

    Two Weapon Fighting Feat: Req: Dex 15, Reduces the Penality for fighting with two weapons, and increases the chance to produce off hand attacks WHEN fighting with two weapons by 20% to 40%.

    Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat: BaB +6, Two Weapon Fighting Feat, Dex 17: adds an additional 20% to make off hand attacks 60% likely to land a "To Hit" roll.

    But one should always stick with a profficent weapon, unless you have a magical way to overcome the penality. If you should come across that perfect weapon then save it, and learn a new feat for it. Otherwise, you can always make a class that can use it.

    I hope this helped, I only looked at my own feats to add this info. This does not come from hearsay, or another player.

  20. #20
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimknot View Post
    In a related tangent my understanding is that non weapon proficiency does not matter on the offhand because of the changes to how dual wielding works.

    I'm not basing this off personal knowledge, but off something I was told ingame by another player, and am seeking confirmation.

    As it was explained to me a few updates back melee dual wielding was causing combat lag so they changed the offhand from a to hit roll to a % chance to proc/hit. As such your to hit and thus weapon proficiency became mute on the offhand.

    Is this accurate? If so I'd like to wield a feated proficiency Khopesh in the mainhand and a non proficient scimitar in the offhand for a higher critical threat range for procs such as radiance.
    No, that's not accurate. If your mainhand hits the offhand does not automatically hit even if it procs. What they did was get rid of the second check for the collision system. Before the change the computer would check to see if your attack was within range of the collision system's hitbox on both of your attacks seperately, causing more calculations.

    With the change, there is only one collision check and if it determines that the target is indeed within range and thus "hittable" then a roll is made to see if you hit. Whether your first attack makes it's to hit roll or not, if you are dual-wielding, then the offhand "piggybacks" off the first collision check (thus it doesn't require a separate collision check) and has a chance to proc, which depends on your TWF Feats and if you're a Tempest PRE. If it then procs, it has a to hit roll done as well. If you're not proficient with it then you will not gain the +20% or +25% (whichever is accurate).

    It works like this:

    Check hitbox of opponent, if hitbox out of range than no chances to hit, check again when person swings again
    If hitbox in range, then roll to-hit for mainhand
    If person dual-wields, check to see if offhand procs
    If offhand procs, then roll to-hit for offhand
    Repeat until person stops swinging weapon at targettable opponents

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