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  1. #41
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?
    Doubtful he's even noticing it much since he's probably only hitting around 60% of the time anyway.


    A level 15 wizard could easily get +25 in to hit bonuses which means against AC 40 he's got a 65% chance to hit if proficient, and a 45% chance if non-proficient. That's only 20 more misses per hundred swings, would most players on a wizard really even notice?

    Against AC 20 critters he's got a 95% chance to hit if proficient, and a 90% chance to hit if non-proficient.


    I don't know what the average AC for monsters in In the Flesh heroic normal is, but if it is closer to 20 than 40, the difference might not be very noticeable.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    He was hitting 90%+ of the time. I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.

    Out of curiosity do you have any idea what your total to hit after all the bonuses were added up was?

  3. #43
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    A level 15 wizard could easily get +25 in to hit bonuses which means against AC 40 he's got a 65% chance to hit if proficient, and a 45% chance if non-proficient. That's only 20 more misses per hundred swings, would most players on a wizard really even notice?

    Against AC 20 critters he's got a 95% chance to hit if proficient, and a 90% chance to hit if non-proficient.


    I don't know what the average AC for monsters in In the Flesh heroic normal is, but if it is closer to 20 than 40, the difference might not be very noticeable.
    As i mentioned before, i always noticed within seconds, even if i wasn't actually looking for it. Most mobs at level 15 must have an ac considerably higher than 20 then, as even my fully raged barb with a greataxe grazed on 2's at that level.

    No idea what the ac on the giants in the new epic gianthold wilderness is, but my ranger was grazing on 5's with a to hit bonus around 40.

    Also Eladrin mentioned that you must be proficient to get grazes, so that would make misses even more obvious.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Out of curiosity do you have any idea what your total to hit after all the bonuses were added up was?
    I do not (I was not the Wizzie) but I can get them ... it may not be 'til next Tuesday tho.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    I do not (I was not the Wizzie) but I can get them ... it may not be 'til next Tuesday tho.
    No big deal if you don't know it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the AC might be looking like in those quests.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    As i mentioned before, i always noticed within seconds, even if i wasn't actually looking for it. Most mobs at level 15 must have an ac considerably higher than 20 then, as even my fully raged barb with a greataxe grazed on 2's at that level.
    L 15 barb with 30 str, +5 weapon, greater rage, ship buff, haste, GH, and rage using power attack would have around +36 to hit (15 bab, 10 str, 5 weap, 3 greater rage, 2 ship, 1 haste, 4 gh, 1 rage, -5 PA). Missing on a 2 would indicate the monster had an AC of around 33.


    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    No idea what the ac on the giants in the new epic gianthold wilderness is, but my ranger was grazing on 5's with a to hit bonus around 40.

    Also Eladrin mentioned that you must be proficient to get grazes, so that would make misses even more obvious.

    If you are missing on a 5 with a to hit of +40, then the giant AC would be around 46.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Grazing also requires proficiency.
    Well, I now have a lot more respect for the cows in Eveningstar.

    (sorry...)

  8. #48
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonD View Post
    Well, I now have a lot more respect for the cows in Eveningstar.

    (sorry...)
    Ok that's funny. (took me a second)

  9. #49
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    Was he using masters touch?

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I think he's referring to this line. I do know with my Wizard sitting at a mid-30s STR score that I still get grazes versus real hits unless I buff up for melee.
    Oh, gotcha.

    My point with that line about how str-dumped wizards can hit EE Malicia with reasonable frequency was that when you ONLY hit via proficiency -- whether it's 20% or 25% of the time -- that's a reasonable amount. In the old days you'd get a "Miss" message on anything but a 20. Now you hit with grazes on most every roll and get actual full hits on 16-20, even if your to-hit is like 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap.
    Yep, that's exactly how it works. The other side of that coin is that with proficiency, 25% is the hard floor regardless of how low your to-hit is. (Or 80%/20% respectively.)

  11. #51
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    Yep, that's exactly how it works. The other side of that coin is that with proficiency, 25% is the hard floor regardless of how low your to-hit is. (Or 80%/20% respectively.)


    Actually with the rounding the hard floor appears to 30%. As per the to hit formula a player with a total 'to hit' of only +1 vs an AC100 critter would still have a 30% chance to hit (26% rounded up).


    As far as I know the 'ceiling' for the non-proficient chance to hit is exactly the same as for using a proficient weapon, 95%, as nothing is subtracted from the to hit formula. Here is the formula: (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2.

    Do you have actual data that supports your statement?
    Last edited by Postumus; 02-21-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Do you have actual data that supports your statement?
    *sigh*

    Again, ignoring low-AC mobs as being irrelevant to this discussion, you are correct in that the formula doesn't have a hard cap.

    However, the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs, and against those it is unlikely to get to 95% without proficiency.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    *sigh*

    Again, ignoring low-AC mobs as being irrelevant to this discussion, you are correct in that the formula doesn't have a hard cap.

    However, the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs, and against those it is unlikely to get to 95% without proficiency.


    What are you talking about?


    You quoted Raith's text "He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap."


    To which you replied "Yep, that's exactly how it works."


    It doesn't work that way at all. You keep saying things that are misleading or just plain factually incorrect pertaining to how proficiency works and how it is used in the to hit calculation.

    I also have no idea what you are trying to say with the statement: 'the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs,' What does that mean for a new player?


    You realize do we are in the New Player Advice and Guidance thread right? I think it's important that new players get correct information. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to correct you, quite frankly.

  14. #54
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Grazing also requires proficiency.
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Grass.

    Cows get this EWP for free.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    No big deal if you don't know it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the AC might be looking like in those quests.
    We were in on Hard when he was showing us (In the Flesh) that is. He was an 18 Wiz at a 16th level quest. The Renders' AC might be the highest (Mindfalyers, Hounds, Pixel and Taken for the most part otherwise).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Was he using masters touch?
    No. I could not believe it until he showed our group. He was 2 wielding, over-sized weapons I want to say, but I just don't remember. Honestly, he made the whole 'to hit' worry seem trivial for *trash* mobs. I can't speak for Epics on this point.
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    To which you replied "Yep, that's exactly how it works."
    That was a mistake. It does convey properly the relevance of proficiency for new players, though.

    Enjoy that picked nit.

    EDIT: The "exactly how it works" part was specifically referring to his "20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula." You say it doesn't work that way at all, which is misleading for new players. It is indeed applied at the end of the formula, and that's why his results felt that way.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    My kensei does not have Khopesh proficiency but uses an Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water for the Improved Paralyzing occasionally. He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap.
    That's how I would have done it. But then I'm pretty old school when it comes to game design theory.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.

    I also tend to think that to hit possibly matters more now than it did before. I can't remember how many threads i read when i started playing that said that proficiency, oversized two weapon fighting, off hand penalties, movement penalties, power attack, none of these things mattered because everybody was pretty much always hitting things on a 2. It just matters differently, like ac. Rather than being crucial within a narrow band, it now has some effect always.
    It's the reverse because of rounding. You can take OTWF (or whatever) and experience literally no change in your to-hit rate even when it's below 95%.

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