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  1. #21

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    So the next question is the -4 to hit (or the lack of a +20/25%) applied only to the offhand which is nonproficient? Or does it apply to the primary hand attack as well which is proficient?

  2. #22

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    The formula has been posted, but the big picture result merits being spelled out:

    In today's game, your to-hit bonus largely doesn't matter BECAUSE proficiency alone lets you hit enough to function. So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.

    The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.

    Try to always be proficient.

    EDIT: Technically, if you have a very high to-hit then you can still get to 95% without proficiency against very low ac mobs.

  3. #23
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The formula has been posted, but the big picture result merits being spelled out:

    In today's game, your to-hit bonus largely doesn't matter BECAUSE proficiency alone lets you hit enough to function. So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.

    The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.

    Try to always be proficient.

    EDIT: Technically, if you have a very high to-hit then you can still get to 95% without proficiency against very low ac mobs.
    Player to-hit is nowhere near as high as you indicate. Players grazing hit a moderate amount at high level with proficient weapons, it's just not so obvious because grazes do noticeable damage now and you get them confused with glancing blows.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Player to-hit is nowhere near as high as you indicate. Players grazing hit a moderate amount at high level with proficient weapons, it's just not so obvious because grazes do noticeable damage now and you get them confused with glancing blows.
    I didn't indicate player to-hit as high or low.

  5. #25
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.

    I also tend to think that to hit possibly matters more now than it did before. I can't remember how many threads i read when i started playing that said that proficiency, oversized two weapon fighting, off hand penalties, movement penalties, power attack, none of these things mattered because everybody was pretty much always hitting things on a 2. It just matters differently, like ac. Rather than being crucial within a narrow band, it now has some effect always.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.

    Proficiency is not always 'king.' As you noted players can get their 'to hit' bonuses high enough to make the proficiency bonus irrelevant. In fact it is very easy to do so at low levels where one would think proficiency should matter more. This, plus the rounding to the mechanic which rounds the percentages to the nearest 5%, make weapon proficiency less important at low levels and nearly insignificant at the lowest levels.


    For example:


    A second level fighter with +2 'to hit' vs a monster with AC 10 has a 80% chance (83% rounded down) to hit the monster using a weapon he is proficient with vs. a 60% chance (63% rounded down) using a non-proficient weapon. Here the fighter is going to hit almost 30% more often using weapons with which he has proficiency.


    But it is very easy for a player to get his second level fighter to +12 'to hit' (+2 bab, +2 weapon, +4 str, +2 bull's str, +2 flask of heroism clicky). This means against the same AC 10 monster, the fighter has the EXACT SAME chance, 95%, to hit the monster using ANY weapon whether he proficient with it or not. This is because his chance to hit is capped at 95%, and with a +12 vs AC 10 his 'to hit' chances for proficient and non-proficient weapons is over 95%.


    It appears the tipping point where the proficiency actually becomes meaningful (greater than a +5% difference) is around AC 15 for a second level fighter (or anyone with a total 'to hit' of +17 or less). However, if one uses sunder frequently, the chance to hit using proficient or non-proficient weapons stays equal until about AC 20 where the difference is still a piddly 5% (95% to hit with proficient weapon vs 90% with non-proficient).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    The to-hit formula now is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2 if you are proficient. For players, this number is rounded to the nearest 0.05 number (so we can use a d20 roll). For monsters, it isn't. There are hard caps at 0.05 and 0.95.

    Using this formula is easy to define that if you have any means to LOWER the mob AC, it is twice as effective than the same number as a bonus to hit.

    This is not true. Because of the rounding to the nearest 5%, the higher the opponent's AC, the less the difference between lowering AC by 4 or raising to hit by 4 seems to matter. Sometimes it is actually worse to lower the AC -4 than boosting the to hit bonus +4. How is that for counter intuitive?


    For example:


    A player with a +19 to hit going up against a monster with AC 50 actually has a better chance of hitting the monster if his 'to hit' is boosted by +4 than if the monster's AC is lowered by -4. A +19 'to hit' bonus vs AC 50 results in a 50% chance to hit. If the AC is lowered by four to AC 46 through sunder, the player still has only a 50% chance (52% rounded down) to hit. However, if the 'to hit' bonus is raised by four to +23, the player now has a 55% chance (54% rounded up) to hit AC 50.


    A +30 'to hit' vs AC 50 has a 60% chance to hit. Whether the AC gets lowered by -4, or the 'to hit' is raised by +4, the new chance to hit AC 50 is exactly the same, 65%, after rounding. Actually right around AC 50 seems to be the point where sunder basically only gives players a +5% chance to hit overall which is usually the same increase granted by adding another +4 'to hit.'


    When an opponent has AC 75 sunder doesn't seem to offer any benefit whatsoever and neither does greater sunder. At +60 'to hit' vs AC 75, one must reduce the AC by at least -8 to achieve a 5% increase in overall chance to hit; anything under +60 to hit wouldn't be affected.

  8. #28

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    That was my point. Level 2 is irrelevant in that level 2 in general is irrelevant regardless of your build. Nobody builds for level 2.

    Those other examples you gave, that's where proficiency is king.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.
    Any roll of 3+, if not a hit, will be a grazing hit. Check your combat log, don't trust the numbers floating.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I didn't indicate player to-hit as high or low.
    I think he's referring to this line. I do know with my Wizard sitting at a mid-30s STR score that I still get grazes versus real hits unless I buff up for melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That was my point. Level 2 is irrelevant in that level 2 in general is irrelevant regardless of your build. Nobody builds for level 2.
    you don't build for level 2???!!! LOL.

    I gave you one, quick example. I can give dozens of examples at every level that contradict your statement.


    Here is my point:


    1- I was answering the OP's question "is weapon proficiency ever a non-issue?" I showed one scenario (of many possible scenarios) where the answer is 'YES, at lower levels, with high enough 'to hit' weapon proficiency will not significantly increase your chance of hitting your opponents. Mob AC and player 'to hit' bonuses factor in much more than proficiency does at nearly every level.


    2- Your statement is factually incorrect and gives the wrong impression to people.

    It would be correct to say it is generally better to use a weapon with which one is proficient, but there are MANY examples and scenarios where it either doesn't matter, or the benefit of using a non-proficient weapon outweighs the minor increase from using a proficient weapon.






    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Those other examples you gave, that's where proficiency is king.

    In those examples sunder is actually king. There is no 'king' that works consistently well across every level for every class against every AC. Some things work best at low level, some at mid-level against low AC, some at mid-level against high AC, and some at cap.

    EDIT--- actually strength might be 'king' the more I think about it. It's at least jack.
    Last edited by Postumus; 02-21-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I can give dozens of examples at every level that contradict your statement.
    Nobody switches to a non-proficient weapon against low-AC mobs, it wouldn't make much gameplay sense at all:

    1) Low-AC mobs are generally only trash, and susceptible to crowd control attacks and fort save effects. Because of this, they are likely instakilled, tripped, stunned, or one-shot. They won't last long enough for it to be worth switching to a slightly higher DPS weapon with which you don't have proficiency.

    2) At around AC 35+ (the vast majority of mobs at level 25), you start needing a +60 attack bonus to not take a proficiency penalty. Entirely doable, but really not worth messing with for characters that have the capability to get that high. Do you want to fail a trip or stun because you missed on your attack roll?

    We don't know exactly what AC each mob type has, at least not without a LOT of data collecting. As a statement of general practice EllisDee is correct. If you continue to use a non-proficient weapon, you will be guarantee'd to run into mobs against whom you only hit 3/4s of the time you roll.

    My kensei does not have Khopesh proficiency but uses an Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water for the Improved Paralyzing occasionally. He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap. It also made me put an Allegiance in his offhand when using that weapon.

  13. #33
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    my +60 to-hit melee was missing on 6s in an explorer area when swinging a non-proficient weapon.

    take the proficiency feat.
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  14. #34
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    Grazing also requires proficiency.

  15. #35
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    Yes there are plenty of times it doesn't matter.

    Public areas
    Looting chests
    Running between mobs

    Otherwise foolish to try and melee without being proficient.

  16. #36
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I have 2 practical examples of wielding non proficient weapons.

    1 I recently tr'd into a wizard and used the spell masters touch to wield carniflex. As i'm addled i frequently would forget to cast masters touch before i started swinging after a rest/zone in. It took about 2 seconds to realize it by the massive amounts of misses that were popping up.

    2. A while back, but since U14, i found a dynastic falcata in the desert with my spellsinger bard. At that time, strength 16, charisma 32. Not khopesh proficient, i equipped it just to see, and it was terrible despite gaining an extra +8 to hit and damage from it. Not subtle at all, immediately apparent difference.

    P.S. Did try testing on the dummy, and was still hitting on 2's. So maybe the dummy doesn't even get the standard 10 to ac, or it is theoretically possible to overcome the nonproficiency penalty with enough to hit advantage.
    Last edited by FestusHood; 02-21-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  17. #37
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    Op -

    I have found the proficiency to be a non-factor. In my static group, even our wizard regularly dual wields (no feat, with non-proficient weapons) and has had little problem hitting (on elite). "To hit" right now seems to be a non-factor most of the time except for certain bosses and displaced enemies.

    In fact, we were arguing in group fairly recently about how often he could hit or miss and he demonstrated in the quest "In the Flesh' his consistent ability to dual wield non-proficient weapons.

    So, for normal runs [per your OP], I would not worry a bit.
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  18. #38
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Op -

    I have found the proficiency to be a non-factor. In my static group, even our wizard regularly dual wields (no feat, with non-proficient weapons) and has had little problem hitting (on elite). "To hit" right now seems to be a non-factor most of the time except for certain bosses and displaced enemies.

    In fact, we were arguing in group fairly recently about how often he could hit or miss and he demonstrated in the quest "In the Flesh' his consistent ability to dual wield non-proficient weapons.

    So, for normal runs [per your OP], I would not worry a bit.
    Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?
    He was hitting 90%+ of the time. I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.
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  20. #40
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    He was hitting 90%+ of the time. I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.
    He was dual wielding non proficient weapons with no 2 weapon fighting feats and hitting 90% of the time on at level elite? I call shenanigans!

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