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  1. #1
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Default Fascinate/Assassinate

    This is a rough draft of an idea I had today while waiting for the servers to come back up. I've played bards and I've played rogue assassins. I started thinking about a way to get a rogue past life playing as an assassin, which I really enjoyed, but multiclassing to eliminate one of the shortcomings of the assassin rogue. Crowd control... they don't have any. Not a problem in groups, but a real issue while soloing, as there are simply times you can't sneak around and assassinate everything. Or it's a large group and you just don't want to spend all night waiting for the assassinate cooldown.

    So I thought of a melee bard and his use of fascinate. It's not dependent on CHA, bard levels, or anything but perform. And with all the skill points provided to a assassin with the inherently high INT, a couple extra points into perform each level would not be a problem.

    You'll notice in this build that I've taken the half-elf dilettante feat Bard, and I've also picked up 6 levels of bard and maxed out perform. One level of bard is taken early to get the perform skill, and the rest are rogue to get assassinate as soon as possible. A 13 CHA is required to get the dilettante feat, and it can use either CHA + d(20) for fascinate checks, or it can use the perform skill. This toon will be using UMD as much as possible for healing and whatever else, so CHA is boosted slightly. I'm thinking the dilettante bard feat can be traded out for something else, as all it will really do is give 3 extra uses of fascinate. I do have 1 bard pl, so I will get one extra song use from that. In most cases, I would imagine 2 or 3 uses per rest would be plenty, at least until more bard levels are taken and more songs gained.

    Another small benefit of mixing some bard in is the ability to have some utility spells and a cure mod for a little boost of healing in combat. Scrolls are more powerful, but sometimes hard to use in combat.

    This is a TR toon and will bank 18-20, so there was no point including those levels in the build. I also have one Midnight Greetings, and another filthy kukri that can be upgraded as well, if two would be better. I was thinking one paralyzing shortsword and one midnight greetings for most versatility without a lot of weapon switching.

    The idea is a versatile toon that can provide traps, dps, and some backup healing for parties, as well as being a strong solo toon. I don't see the bard songs as providing any real party advantages. Fascinate is almost never used in parties, and the buffs will be too short and not particularly powerful.

    At any rate, here it is...
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 18 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
    (12 Rogue \ 6 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 288
    Spell Points: 240 
    BAB: 13\13\18\23
    Fortitude: 11
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 18)           (Level 18)
    Strength              9                 13                   14
    Dexterity            16                 20                   22
    Constitution         16                 20                   20
    Intelligence         16                 24                   24
    Wisdom                8                 12                   12
    Charisma             13                 17                   17
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    +4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 18)          (Level 18)
    Balance               5                 16                   16
    Bluff                 4                 14                   18
    Concentration         3                 13                   13
    Diplomacy             2                  7                    7
    Disable Device        7                 28                   28
    Haggle                2                  4                    4
    Heal                 -1                  1                    1
    Hide                  7                 27                   33
    Intimidate            2                  4                    4
    Jump                  3                 15                   15
    Listen                0                 10                   10
    Move Silently         7                 27                   33
    Open Lock             7                 23                   23
    Perform               n/a               24                   25
    Repair                4                  8                    8
    Search                7                 28                   28
    Spot                  3                 22                   22
    Swim                  0                  5                    5
    Tumble                4                  9                    9
    Use Magic Device      5                 24                   24
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Bard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
    Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    Spell (1): Cause Fear
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand Heightening I
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge Bonus)
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Focusing Chant
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
    Spell (1): Sonic Blast
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Spell (2): Invisibility
    Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Feather Fall
    Spell (2): Blur
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
    Enhancement: Improved Perform I
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery III
    Let me know what you think, any ideas or constructive criticisms are always appreciated.
    Last edited by AzB; 02-15-2013 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member beilschmidt's Avatar
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    Nice build, I loved the idea.
    English is not my native language, so please excuse my mistakes.
    Thelanis: Fossette (Your DC'ing raid cleric), Ampora (party's gimp CC bard), Eridana (worst Paladin tank in your party), Laeressa ("kill before you get killed" Barbarian), Dualscar (uncharismatic WF sorcerer)

  3. #3
    Community Member Viciouspika's Avatar
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    I had a similar build went 13 rogue/ 7 bard and drow for race. I worked out well. I was dual-weilding rapiers with the drow enhancements.

    I also raced to virtuoso I first then went for the assasin Pre. The reason being is a lower levels there is a greater number of undead related quests and Music of the Dead worked wonders for undead Mobs(Since undead are immune to sneak attack). Also, you get better cure spells at a lower level were it will be more useful. Your first level spell you should consider is Master's touch unless you already have low level weapons put aside.

    For Feats, I went with Extend, Maximized(empowered healing), Twf chain, Skill focuserform(required for Virtuoso I), and Improved Critical Piercing. The extend for haste/rage/blur buff spells, and Maximize(empowered healing for cure spells).

    Since you have tomes, I would lower your Dex, Con, Int by 1,2,2 respectively and add to Str. The reason being your assasinate DC with not be high enough to assasinate on epic, but will give a 10d6 damage boost on each attempt that is saved. Your BAB will only be 14 at lvl 20 iirc. So, you will need a lot of help to hit.

    With half dilly, i would choose something other than bard since you are already getting levels in that class. I would say monk for the healing amp, but your stats are spread thin already.

    Skills: I would max perform, umd, search, spot, disable device, bluff, and put the rest in balance, jump, and open locks.

    It's fun to blur or displace, invis, entrall, bluff and kill. Enthrall is more powerful then fascinate cause the mob needs to make a save verses you perform to break free. On a half elf you will get two bluff bars which will allow you to get your sneak attack damage.

  4. #4
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viciouspika View Post

    Since you have tomes, I would lower your Dex, Con, Int by 1,2,2 respectively and add to Str. The reason being your assasinate DC with not be high enough to assasinate on epic, but will give a 10d6 damage boost on each attempt that is saved. Your BAB will only be 14 at lvl 20 iirc. So, you will need a lot of help to hit.
    I mentioned this was a TR. That's why it only goes to 18 lvl. I'm mainly trying to get a rogue pl without having to worry about grouping all the time at higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viciouspika View Post
    With half dilly, i would choose something other than bard since you are already getting levels in that class. I would say monk for the healing amp, but your stats are spread thin already.
    Also mentioned in the wall of text is that I was experimenting with what the higher score would be for the fascinate; either CHA for the dilly feat, or perform for the actual bard levels. They came out about the same, so I would replace the barb dilly feat. Might go human and just take another feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viciouspika View Post
    Skills: I would max perform, umd, search, spot, disable device, bluff, and put the rest in balance, jump, and open locks.
    There is no problem with skill points on this build. I darn near maxxed every skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viciouspika View Post
    It's fun to blur or displace, invis, entrall, bluff and kill. Enthrall is more powerful then fascinate cause the mob needs to make a save verses you perform to break free. On a half elf you will get two bluff bars which will allow you to get your sneak attack damage.
    Not sure what you mean, fascinate uses perform as well, at least the actual bard one, not the dilly feat fascinate. Fascinate doesn't require very many bard levels, cha, or any real investment other than those skill points. It's pretty effective, and I'm thinking would be a great addition to assassinate for mobs. Enthrall would be nice, but it takes more levels of bard, and I'm thinking of taking just enough bard levels for some basic buffs and utility spells.

    Plus, fascinate/assassinate rhymes... perfect for a bard!

  5. #5
    The Hatchery
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    If this wasn't a TR build, I'd tell you to use one of the Epic Destinies for CC. There are a few, like Otto's Whistler from Shiradi and Shadow Manipulation from Shadowdancer.

    But since this is a TR build, I'll just ask: are you sure you know how to rogue? Cause you don't need CC to rogue. You should be sneaking past as many enemies as possible, using bluff to pull mobs one at a time, using summons as aggro magnets, etc.

    But, looking at your build, I guess it can work in theory, but you'll have very few songs and a very gimped Assassinate DC.

  6. #6
    Community Member NovaNZ's Avatar
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    Hail AzB

    Really you only need 1 lvl of bard for fascinate. Min 18 level of rogue. Possibly 1 lvl of something else or use for 3rd tree when new AP systen comes in.

    HIGH Int and then either dex or Str (personally i'd go STR).

    I believe it is possible to get a fascinate DC into the 60's without overkill. Just get the INT as high as possible.

    I've just started a test 32 point rogue 18, bard 1, ranger 1 as a pilot test for TR Zongen (only I'm going Acrobat and STR based).

    Good luck.
    Last edited by NovaNZ; 02-16-2013 at 11:22 PM. Reason: spelling check
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  7. #7
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    But since this is a TR build, I'll just ask: are you sure you know how to rogue? Cause you don't need CC to rogue. You should be sneaking past as many enemies as possible, using bluff to pull mobs one at a time, using summons as aggro magnets, etc.
    Yes, I know how to rogue. I'm thinking there are occasions when some solid cc would be useful. There are some situations where cc could be useful. There are many times that killing mobs is a requirement for completion, and it's either very time consuming to pull them one by one, or sometimes impossible. It would make certain situations much easier and faster to fascinate and assassinate.

    I have a rogue I played to 17, and he was a lot of fun in groups. Solo was another story.

  8. #8
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaNZ View Post
    Hail AzB

    Really you only need 1 lvl of bard for fascinate. Min 18 level of rogue. Possibly 1 lvl of something else or use for 3rd tree when new AP systen comes in.

    HIGH Int and then either dex or Str (personally i'd go STR).

    I believe it is possible to get a fascinate DC into the 60's without overkill. Just get the INT as high as possible.

    I've just started a test 32 point rogue 18, bard 1, ranger 1 as a pilot test for TR Zongen (only I'm going Acrobat and STR based).

    Good luck.
    I was thinking that some more bard levels would give some utility spells that would be useful. But you're probably right, umd the spells from scrolls and keep the assassinate dc as high as possible.

    My previous rogue was str based, I want to try dex based on this one. As an assassin with midnight greetings and some cc, I think it will be fine.

  9. #9
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    My suspicion is that the assassinate DCs will not really be viable, and would suggest doing a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation to see what DC you're reasonably looking at having.

    That said, I don't know that there's many sub-20 critters that -really- need to be instagibbed, as opposed to just beaten on.
    Cannith, Slicing Blow. Vilenna (18/1/1 Clonkard), Marvala (20 monk), Phrenia (19/1 rogue/fighter), Malchara (12/6/2 AA), Denaria (18/2 ...wonk?)

  10. #10
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Just for future posterity, I tried it out. Both the h/elf dilletante bard fascinate with a reasonable cha, and as a 12/1 assassin/bard.

    Fascinate worked fine either way, although having 1 level of bard instead of the bard dilly allowed a slightly higher perform with items than a cha based dilly fascinate at higher levels.

    Assassinate dcs were fine with 1 level of bard and a maxed int.

    The problem that I ran into, and it's a deal breaker, is that in both cases fascinate's duration was too short, with no way of making it longer without sacrificing more assassinate dcs. I didn't time it, but it seemed to last about 20-30 seconds which was not enough time. I've gotten spoiled with my bard whose fascinate lasts something like 4:30.

    With the splash version, you could add 1 or more bard levels and spend aps on song duration, but aps are tight on a assassin trapper with umd already, and more bard levels means a hamstrung assassinate dc. So this might be feasible for a non-assassin rogue, but it falls short of what I was looking for in "fascinate/assassinate".

    One nice side benefit was the 1 first level spell. I took master's touch and was able to use my variouus weapons gathered up over time from various toons to great effectiveness. Switching to a two handed flaming axe of pure good did significantly more damage against undead than any dex based weapons I had, even with a low strength. Or a greatsword of smiting against constructs, etc. Dex based weapons are far more limited. And since it's permanent between rest, and the sp was unuseable for anything else, I could simply cast itvon any weapons I might need before the next rest and they were ready if/when I needed them. Not a big deal, but pretty cool feature for a dex based rogue.

    I'm gonna call it a failure. It's a shame really, as it would've been a cool flavor build.

  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I'm gonna call it a failure. It's a shame really, as it would've been a cool flavor build.
    This is the kind of build the theoretical enhancement pass will allow within limits (like, you must be Halfling) ...
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #12
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Make a rad2 kukri to go with your midnight(grants kukri)it will allow you to blind the target(good crit profile) you are currently fighting and mitigate lots of dmg and give you permanent sneak attack.

  13. #13
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I'm gonna call it a failure. It's a shame really, as it would've been a cool flavor build.
    On behalf of everyone, thank you for testing the concept. It really is a shame and I had similar ideas. Aria can increase the duration of the song. Siren Song can last on a single target for 12 seconds. Echoes of the Ancestors: Martial - Shadowdancer grants +20% song duration. But yeah, there's not much you can do here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
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  14. #14
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    On behalf of everyone, thank you for testing the concept. It really is a shame and I had similar ideas. Aria can increase the duration of the song. Siren Song can last on a single target for 12 seconds. Echoes of the Ancestors: Martial - Shadowdancer grants +20% song duration. But yeah, there's not much you can do here.
    Thanks, yeah there are ways to make it last a little bit longer, but the duration is so short to begin with it's not worth the effort. It would take way too many resources to accomplish only small gain. Fascinate is a niche ability anyway, I've never used it (successfully) in a group so it's just for solo crowd control. It might be worth pursuing if the assassinate cooldown wasn't 87 minutes, but since it is the fascinate ability just doesn't do much for an assassin.

    I didn't even cross my mind that this would be an issue when I thought of it since my pure bard's fascinate lasts quite a long time. He's used it to run past a mob to get into a boss room, beat the boss, grab the chest, and when he runs back out, the mob is still fascinated.

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