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  1. #21
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The biggest mistake they made was not allowing current authors to write in the Eberron campaign setting. Its this kind of stuff that has caused FR to still be the number one fiction lore universe in D&D, even though it was created in the late 80s. They kept the estabilished authors in FR and came in with a new crop for Eberron. The better move would have been to mix those names up, so that new authors could write in FR and allow some of the established authors whose names alone will land them on best seller lists write in Eberron. That would have pushed the environment to the point where everyone and their mother trying to crank out a D&D game jones sauce to lisence the FR universe for its environment.
    I would have loved some of the other writers to write for eberron then we might have gotten some good fiction for the world.

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  2. #22
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    I also am a big fan of Grewhawk however for me Forgotten Realms was and still is the most popular world in D&D. While I agree there might be a few players that would not have played DDO if it were in FR I think there would have been more than are currently playing in Eberron. The numbers don't lie (sales, etc...) Forgotten Realms is largely more followed than any other D&D world.

    For me I started playing DDO 7 years ago because it was D&D. The Eberron world had me scratching my head a lot with disappointment. DDO needs to expand into The Forgotten Realms a lot more and I hope this is true with future updates.
    I think the main reason that FR is the "biggest" world is because it had the most stuff pushed out for it after a while. Greyhawk was the original D&D/AD&D world (being Gygax's creation), and all the original modules were set there, while FR was created as a campaign world for Ed Greenwood's game. I remember getting the gray-box set for FR, and it was neat how much information there was for it, but I did notice one thing about it -- the power-creep was seriously high. We used to joke about it a lot in our group. "Welcome to the realms, here's your +4 sword."

    Greyhawk always felt more "gritty" to me. A kind of darker fantasy setting and less "high magic" (ie, not every shopkeeper has a +1 sword under the counter).

    That said, I'd still love to see Greyhawk included in DDO. Tomb of Horrors in particular. Heck, Gianthold is pretty much G1-G3 (Against the Giants) already.

  3. #23
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The biggest mistake they made was not allowing current authors to write in the Eberron campaign setting. Its this kind of stuff that has caused FR to still be the number one fiction lore universe in D&D, even though it was created in the late 80s. They kept the estabilished authors in FR and came in with a new crop for Eberron. The better move would have been to mix those names up, so that new authors could write in FR and allow some of the established authors whose names alone will land them on best seller lists write in Eberron. That would have pushed the environment to the point where everyone and their mother trying to crank out a D&D game jones sauce to lisence the FR universe for its environment.
    While I know that the publishing house has great push on that, do you know if the writers themselves actually wanted to jump to different worlds?

    I mean, the only ones that seemed able to jump worlds were the ones writing for both World A and Ravenloft. (characters got transported to->from afterall)

  4. #24
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    I participated in the beta test this past weekend and my take is a bit different than OP.

    I don't view Neverwinter as a direct competitor of DDO even though it also has a D&D theme - it seems like a game that will cater largely to different people with some overlap of potential customers.

    DDOs big competitive advantage: Character customization, multiple difficulty levels and a virtually unlimited amount of gear to grind for (ie., you will never get enough). DDO will always win if someone wants a deep game where the player wants to focus on building up their character. It is highly achievement focused. Neverwinter is not.

    Neverwinter's big advantage is ease of entry into the game and the foundry. It will appeal to casual gamers, people that can only spend 10 or less hours per week playing, people that want to build adventures for their friends (foundry) and people that want to always try something new (since the # of foundry quests is likely to be enormous). The biggest disadvantage I saw is that PVP will be entirely pay to win. Buying things will make absolutely no difference for PVE.

    Expect DDO to add something like the foundry as soon as they can possibly do it. It is the closest thing to P&P D&D I've seen online. This past weekend we were able to run foundry quests created by alpha testers, but couldn't create our own. I don't know if this is because it is too buggy or they were worried they wouldn't get people running the content if the foundry was open.

    I think both games will thrive and do well.
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  5. #25
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I participated in the beta test this past weekend and my take is a bit different than OP.

    I don't view Neverwinter as a direct competitor of DDO even though it also has a D&D theme - it seems like a game that will cater largely to different people with some overlap of potential customers.

    DDOs big competitive advantage: Character customization, multiple difficulty levels and a virtually unlimited amount of gear to grind for (ie., you will never get enough). DDO will always win if someone wants a deep game where the player wants to focus on building up their character. It is highly achievement focused. Neverwinter is not.

    Neverwinter's big advantage is ease of entry into the game and the foundry. It will appeal to casual gamers, people that can only spend 10 or less hours per week playing, people that want to build adventures for their friends (foundry) and people that want to always try something new (since the # of foundry quests is likely to be enormous). The biggest disadvantage I saw is that PVP will be entirely pay to win. Buying things will make absolutely no difference for PVE.

    Expect DDO to add something like the foundry as soon as they can possibly do it. It is the closest thing to P&P D&D I've seen online. This past weekend we were able to run foundry quests created by alpha testers, but couldn't create our own. I don't know if this is because it is too buggy or they were worried they wouldn't get people running the content if the foundry was open.

    I think both games will thrive and do well.
    Dont count on ever seeing a foundry for ddo they use to many custom tools to make that really possible now.

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Greyhawk was the original D&D/AD&D world (being Gygax's creation)
    There's a pretty decent argument to be made that Blackmoor is actually the original D&D world.
    all the original modules were set there
    Depends on what you mean by "all" and "original".
    Greyhawk always felt more "gritty" to me. A kind of darker fantasy setting and less "high magic" (ie, not every shopkeeper has a +1 sword under the counter).
    Greyhawk (which make no mistake, I will take GH over FR ANY DAY OF THE WEEK) was not more gritty than FR. It was more Neutral as opposed to the more black and white of the Realms. That certainly changes the feel, but GH was just as High Fantasy as the Realms were initially. Eventually the Realms became even higher fantasy, but you also have to remember that while FR flourished,. GH was largely allowed to stagnate, otherwise it would have gone down the same path.

    Heck, Gianthold is pretty much G1-G3 (Against the Giants) already.
    Not so much, no. Vaguely inspired by maybe, but that's about it.

    And to whatshisface, no, DDO does not need to move more into FR. Just. . . no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Turbine had no choice to do anything but Eberron... At the time, D&D 3.5 just came out, as well as the Eberron setting and Hasbro/WotC wanted to push the environment.

    Also, Atari had a chokehold on the "electronic" rights for D&D, and they wouldn't have allowed FR development in any case, as they wanted to develop their own MMO using the more popular property... This seemed to have been born out in the lawsuit.
    Hush you. Today is not a day for facts and reason!

    Personally, if there are going to be any more extra-planar expansions, I desperately wish they'd stay away form the Realms. The Realms (at least the parts we seem to be getting) are dreadfully dull. Ohh, cheatingly designed drow! What a new and shocking twist!

    No, we need to visit one or more of the following: Sigil, Athas, or that craziness that was Spelljammer. I vote for Athas.

    If we have to stick with the Realms, then let us visit Thay, or Maztica, or (my preference) Kara Tur.

  7. #27
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Expect DDO to add something like the foundry as soon as they can possibly do it.
    I wouldn't count on this in the slightest nor would I expect them to. DDO is a seven year old game versus Neverwinter which is brand new and developed specifically to have custom content.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig138 View Post
    No, we need to visit one or more of the following: Sigil, Athas, or that craziness that was Spelljammer. I vote for Athas.
    Athas would be wonderful.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 02-15-2013 at 02:02 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig138 View Post
    There's a pretty decent argument to be made that Blackmoor is actually the original D&D world.
    Depends on what you mean by "all" and "original".
    Greyhawk (which make no mistake, I will take GH over FR ANY DAY OF THE WEEK) was not more gritty than FR. It was more Neutral as opposed to the more black and white of the Realms. That certainly changes the feel, but GH was just as High Fantasy as the Realms were initially. Eventually the Realms became even higher fantasy, but you also have to remember that while FR flourished,. GH was largely allowed to stagnate, otherwise it would have gone down the same path.

    Not so much, no. Vaguely inspired by maybe, but that's about it.

    And to whatshisface, no, DDO does not need to move more into FR. Just. . . no.

    Hush you. Today is not a day for facts and reason!

    Personally, if there are going to be any more extra-planar expansions, I desperately wish they'd stay away form the Realms. The Realms (at least the parts we seem to be getting) are dreadfully dull. Ohh, cheatingly designed drow! What a new and shocking twist!

    No, we need to visit one or more of the following: Sigil, Athas, or that craziness that was Spelljammer. I vote for Athas.

    If we have to stick with the Realms, then let us visit Thay, or Maztica, or (my preference) Kara Tur.
    No Greyhawk is for sure the orignial though Blackmoor is basicly just as old since it was Dave's world and one of the supplements for the orignal dnd in the mid 70's was called blackmoor and it sets on my shelf where it has for the last 30 plus years and all the original tsr modules were set in greyhawk by default.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  9. #29
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    Default First of all..

    Alright, well just a few comments.

    1. 4th Edition is just about the worst steaming pile of *insert noun here* that I have ever had the displeasure of playing. Everyone dies constantly and then pops back up, abilities are like a video game etc. My friends and everyone I have played with says its like playing WoW on tabletop and would make a better videogame than a RPG. That being said, maybe it will translate better into online gaming.

    2. DDO when it first came out.. didn't it like have at least a year or 2 before raids were even implemented? I am pretty sure it was a while.

    3. Forgotten Realms, while certainly the most colorful and has the biggest fan following is also the most hardcore set-in-stone system out there. It has in-depth storylines and NPCs that are rock solid and fully flushed out. Any changes made to the world in game would have to either follow a storyline that we all know the answers to, or has to be completely made up (which most fanboys will hate).

    Personally I love FR and have always loved it. But we will have to see.

    I remember when DDO first came out. 50% of the "reviews" by Tabletop gaming geeks thought it sucked hardcore. The other 50% thought it was great.

  10. #30
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig138 View Post
    1 - And to whatshisface, no, DDO does not need to move more into FR. Just. . . no.

    2 - No, we need to visit one or more of the following: Sigil, Athas, or that craziness that was Spelljammer. I vote for Athas.

    3 - If we have to stick with the Realms, then let us visit Thay, or Maztica, or (my preference) Kara Tur.
    1 - Yes, it obvious that Turbine will continue to expand into the most popular realm of D&D and kudos to them. Your logic for not expanding into FR is not based upon dollars which is the focus of most successful businesses. The fact that the opening of Eveningstar has been met with a big applause from the player base only supports more FR expansion.

    2 - No, No, No as Eberron already has a semi-themed Spelljammer feel to it and is not one of the most popular aspects of DDO. Hmmm, House Cannith showed a lack of interest in techno-magic as we all know.

    3 - You contradict yourself but you helped to make my point. By expanding into The Forgotten Realms of course that means Thay, Maztica, Chult, more of Cormyr, Tantris, Waterdeep, Shadowdale, Icewind Dales, etc...
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  11. #31
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Reviews are interesting and all, but I don't make judgements until I try it. It's f2p after all. So trying it seems rather painless. What do I have to lose? Some of my precious free time? Might be a nice diversion. Might not.

    I intend to find out when it goes Live.

  12. #32
    Community Member parowan's Avatar
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    Forget Neverwinter, this is a Greyhawk love thread!

    To me FR always smacked of Monty Hall. It was a big bucket with every DnD and fantasy trope thrown in, and then a big injection of steroids for good measure.

    I prefer Eberron over FR because it feels more coherent. Athas even more so. But I practically imbibed Greyhawk with my mother's milk, and it will always be "home." Would love to see it come to life in DDO, but yeah, that ain't happening.
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  13. #33
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    No Greyhawk is for sure the orignial though Blackmoor is basicly just as old since it was Dave's world and one of the supplements for the orignal dnd in the mid 70's was called blackmoor and it sets on my shelf where it has for the last 30 plus years and all the original tsr modules were set in greyhawk by default.
    Yep, I have my old Greyhawk set at my dad's and I remember the page somewhere that listed where on the map grid all the various modules were located. Of course it was always up to us exactly where they were located. In "my" Greyhawk things didn't completely mimic the "official" versions. Plus my Greyhawk linked up with Oerth .

  14. #34
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraegor View Post
    Alright, well just a few comments.

    2. DDO when it first came out.. didn't it like have at least a year or 2 before raids were even implemented? I am pretty sure it was a while. Wrong - Tempest Spine was out when the game launched and then Vault of Night launched in the next update 3 months later.

    3. Forgotten Realms, while certainly the most colorful and has the biggest fan following is also the most hardcore set-in-stone system out there. It has in-depth storylines and NPCs that are rock solid and fully flushed out. Any changes made to the world in game would have to either follow a storyline that we all know the answers to, or has to be completely made up (which most fanboys will hate).

    Personally I love FR and have always loved it. But we will have to see.

    I remember when DDO first came out. 50% of the "reviews" by Tabletop gaming geeks thought it sucked hardcore. The other 50% thought it was great.
    Raids in DDO started at launch.
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  15. #35

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    I played in the first public beta session of this last weekend 2-8-13 thru 2-10-13. They did not have the Control Wizard available for play. They also didn't have the Drow available yet.

    My impressions are that the combat system is sub-par to DDO's. The game plays very similar to one of their other titles, Champions Online. They did have mounts available (level gated must be 15th level), and as stated in the video, everyone gets to have companions.

    The powers that you get, as you level up are preset to specific ones but I am not sure if this is the end design or not. You only have access to a limited number at any given time, and some of the available power slots are level gated. Example is that you only have one daily power slot available until you hit ~20th level.

    It is my opinion that the game does not hold a candle to DDO in most of the ways that count; character customization, progression path freedom, etc... Yes the graphics are nice and you get things that DDO lacks such as mounts, but these do not outweigh the other areas were it is lacking.

    YMMV

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    It's Cryptic. Did you really expect a good game that wasn't completely phoned in/half-assed?



    Greyhawk fans unite! *points to her Location*
    Well, yes it was possible. The CoX series of games, initially developed by Cryptic, I thought were excellent, especially compared to any other Supers MMO out there.

  17. #37

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    Oh, one thing I neglected to mention, they have built into the system (from day one) to support player generated content. They call the system "The Foundery".

  18. #38
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig138 View Post
    There's a pretty decent argument to be made that Blackmoor is actually the original D&D world.
    Well, it's one of the two original settings, yeah. They were developed within months of one another. Greyhawk was where most of the stuff was "set" though, module-wise.

    Depends on what you mean by "all" and "original".
    Well, "original" to me was AD&D (that's where I started playing), with the A, B, C, D, etc module series'. Against the Drow, Against the Giants, Secret of the Slavers, Tomb of Horrors, etc.

    Greyhawk (which make no mistake, I will take GH over FR ANY DAY OF THE WEEK) was not more gritty than FR. It was more Neutral as opposed to the more black and white of the Realms. That certainly changes the feel, but GH was just as High Fantasy as the Realms were initially. Eventually the Realms became even higher fantasy, but you also have to remember that while FR flourished,. GH was largely allowed to stagnate, otherwise it would have gone down the same path.
    Well, that's down to personal feeling then. Greyhawk always felt "grittier" to me. Probably because it wasn't so black and white. The FR was pretty much "ultra high fantasy" from the get-go when it was released. The gray box version (the first full incarnation of it as far as I know) had super-high magic everywhere. Pretty much every little village had at least a 7-8th level wizard (or higher), mercenary companies were outfitted with magic items for every soldier (there was one we used to make fun of that was like 3000 members, and it said that ALL of them had at least +1 armor/weapons, higher for the sergeants/leaders), etc.

    But considering that we now have a kind of "planewalking" element to DDO, I'd LOVE to see them run with that concept. Let us visit Greyhawk, Darksun, Ravenloft, Sigil, etc.

    Not so much, no. Vaguely inspired by maybe, but that's about it.
    A bit more than "vaguely" imo, but meh. I like fighting giants. More giants!

  19. #39
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakos View Post
    Well, yes it was possible. The CoX series of games, initially developed by Cryptic, I thought were excellent, especially compared to any other Supers MMO out there.
    They were initially developed by "CoX-era Cryptic", yes. However, they kept insisting that there were lots of things that were "impossible to do with this code-base". Yet when a bunch of those devs left (including Jack), somehow the remaining devs found that it WAS quite possible to do a lot of those things. The Paragon Studies era of CoX was FAR superior.

    The "CO-era Cryptic" has been nothing but garbage. CO was a badly-designed, poorly-implemented game that flopped. STO was a badly-designed, poorly-implemented game that flopped. I see the same thing happening to NWO.

  20. #40
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    Eberron is a fine and interesting setting for an MMO. The variety of locales is pretty impressive, made even moreso by the occasional coterminous plane. I like that things are more ambiguous and not black and white. Compared to what I've seen from the FR (barring the excellent Underdark and Demonweb) I enjoy the Eberron content more.

    Maybe we just picked a humdrum corner of the FR.

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