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  1. #281
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    No he sees them as the group healer.

    It is a reasonable supposition that when a divine character joins any group that isn't byoh they are going to be expected to do the majority of the healing. It is unreasonable for a person joining to believe otherwise.


    A part of the reason that I post byoh runs is to remove that reponsibilty from their shoulders. That is why it doesn't change from byoh to oh look we have a healer now when a divine joins the group.
    Perhaps, but the way he posts it makes him sound like the melee in this post from another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCirin View Post
    I am a casual player. I play maybe 12 hours a week. I have several alts. After around two years of playing, my main character is now 23rd level.

    My guild is tiny, it's the characters of my family and real-life friends who play DDO. It's a small low level guild, but we're happy.

    Aside from some occasional grouping with the few people in my guild, I've been mostly a soloist. The grouping I've done has been responding to the occasional LFM, and putting up an LFM in the King's Forest to help farm for commendations. Commendations are the only thing I've ever farmed, and that was so I could upgrade my gear for probably the first time in many levels. Being a Favored Soul has been very good for being a soloist, and with a Paladin or Fighter hireling I can do an awful lot by myself. Commendations have let me get some level-appropriate gear for once. I had a real "I have cool loot" feeling when I got my Star of Day.

    I've spent most of the last few months playing in Faerun, loving the expansion. I have a lot of fun playing DDO, and am kind of amazed I'm nearing the level cap, it will be the first MMORPG I've ever hit the cap on.

    The last few days though have really hit home how my experience with DDO is NOT the norm.

    After playing through the entire expansion plotline, often on casual with a hireling, I flagged or CitW. I knew I'd never be able to do that without a full raid party. A few nights ago, out of nowhere, somebody sends me a tell asking if I want to join them on their CitW raid.

    Me? On a raid? Wow. I accept, but I say to the group that I have very little raid experience, have never run CitW before, and have no experience being a healer on a raid (my previous raids were basically tagging along on zerging through Chronoscope for loot). It was myself and one other FvS for healers.

    The group leader sets the difficulty at Epic Hard. One person in the group notes that an inexperienced healer learning the quest on Epic Hard will be memorable. Yeah, that was an understatement.

    You can probably imagine how it went. Somehow, despite near wipes fighting Lolth (and me burning through my entire cache of mnemonic elixirs and a stack of Resurrection scrolls), we managed to get to the very, very end, when you have to kill the portal keepers simultaneously to escape.

    The tanks couldn't get it right to save their (and our) lives. They'd zerg in and kill things as quick as they could. They just couldn't seem to get the idea of stopping attacking the keepers when they get low on HP. Well, we finally wiped since all the casters were completely out of mana and we just got wore down.

    So, then as Ana was getting eaten by demons, the blame started being thrown. A lot of it got thrown at me, talking about how bad I was at this. I tried to respond with noting that I was invited on this out of nowhere, and that I said several times I'm not experienced as a raid healer, have never run CitW before (and who knows how much mana I blew on wasted resurrections for people who couldn't rez because Lolth's special ability to prevent that, or the significant number of Heal spells I blew early in the raid because nobody told me she inflicted cursed wounds), and I was being taken along on a Hard run. . .because I've already found that NOBODY will do anything on normal (or god forbid, Casual and yes I know raids don't have casual), because people are so obsessed with bravery bonuses that the idea of doing anything on normal is anathema.

    So, I was basically used as the whipping boy, instead of the fighters who couldn't stop zerging. Yeah, the group leader griped about the tanks some, but a lot more whining was aimed at me, saying if I was quicker then we would have had more healing to make more tries to bring down the portal keepers.

    Then, the next day, I get a tell asking me if I want to tag along on a Shroud run. I'm not flagged for that. I actually got a reply of somebody wondering how I could get to 23rd level and not know the Shroud, much less not even be flagged for it.

    This morning, I get a tell asking me if I want to farm scales in Reaver's Fate. I replied that I'm not flagged for Reaver's Fate. I got a brief response of "O.O" and that was that.

    I guess most 23rd level characters are flagged for every raid and know them all well, and are from big guilds with well equipped airships. I spent most of this morning trying to figure out how to flag for Against the Demon Queen, thinking maybe I should just go and get flagged for all these raids so I can go do things. Still can't figure it all out. Done all the quests in the desert, but the genie won't give me the quest, so I probably did something wrong.

    . . .and that's the casual player's lament.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franke View Post
    Hmmm, that's about as arrogant a stance as I've ever encountered, and I wonder how many squelch lists you've been added to. Now, I fully understand that your party is your party and the rules you set are for you alone to decide. But, do you even comprehend that YOU and YOU alone are requesting others to join YOU? I wonder how you would react to others addressing you in the same way with the same expectations.

    Relax and remember it's a game, interacting with new people is a good thing imo and not all will do things the same conventional ways as others.
    Than lets talk about arrogance. I call it arrogant when a healer class joins my party and states he is not a healer, when the LFM says healer needed. I call it arrogant when a STR based assassin joins and dies in a trap when the LFM says trapper needed. And I call it arrogant when the healer plays the princess of the party expecting thnx for every heal he tosses, while the others do their job without recognition. If you play a healer I believe you do it because you like to support, not to find a party fast where you can pretend your awesome.

    They say people remember the first and last info in a text. I did say at the very end of my post that I DON'T tell people what they should do. I do worst, I expect you to do your job without a word, as I do mine without asking others if its ok to buff and CC with my caster, or disable traps successfully with my rogue.
    I know there are some ridiculous expectations from "leetpro" players. But I do think mines are straight forward, and understandable.
    In a sane world the order is: 1.the will of the party, for purpose of winning. 2. my will to make something I like.
    Unless ofc your grouping with like minded members where the healer is the dps the pally the support and everyone else is dead.

  3. #283
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Why not? I've seen Elite raids solo-scrolled-healed by a Rogue. I've solo-healed some moderately difficult Elite quests as a Ranger. A pally has lots of healing options.
    Focus less on class icon and more on getting the job done.
    You're trying to speak with someone who puts hirelings and divine players on the same balance - what do you expect, sir ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    Frankly that's ********. If I LFM for a rogue I expect him to survive and disable the traps without fail. I don't give a damn how he can outDPS me how high his kill count. If I LFM for a healer, I don't want a pally with 18 starting wisdom to pretend he can do as well as a cleric or a FVS. And definitely did not ask for a healer who slays every mob he meets, while the rest of the group is dying without support.
    You can be a meele FVS IF: You can also keep people alive.
    There is a competent healer in the group.

    In short I don't care about your freedom to build whatever you want, if it is in conflict with my will to do the quest.
    And yes as soon as you hit my LFM I do decide what you have to do, because that's why I chose to let you in for that specific purpose and can dismiss you any time. You are a pawn in my game, and while I wont be telling exactly when and what to do, no I do worst. I EXPECT you to do those general things your class supposed to do.
    While there are some persons in this thread I strongly disaggree with (Chill and Fetus) - I believe our difference in playstyle add something to the game : more segments in which players can fit, more diversity. But you are the kind that removes something to this game, and believe they have some kind of divine right to control other's players right of having fun the way they want. Needless to say that not only do I disaggree with you but also I would love to join one of your groups to show you that even if you got the star one can totally ruin YOUR gaming experience.
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
    Le Dernier Chapitre ///// Argonnessen

  4. #284
    Community Member Franke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    Than lets talk about arrogance. I call it arrogant when a healer class joins my party and states he is not a healer, when the LFM says healer needed. I call it arrogant when a STR based assassin joins and dies in a trap when the LFM says trapper needed. And I call it arrogant when the healer plays the princess of the party expecting thnx for every heal he tosses, while the others do their job without recognition. If you play a healer I believe you do it because you like to support, not to find a party fast where you can pretend your awesome.

    They say people remember the first and last info in a text. I did say at the very end of my post that I DON'T tell people what they should do. I do worst, I expect you to do your job without a word, as I do mine without asking others if its ok to buff and CC with my caster, or disable traps successfully with my rogue.
    I know there are some ridiculous expectations from "leetpro" players. But I do think mines are straight forward, and understandable.
    In a sane world the order is: 1.the will of the party, for purpose of winning. 2. my will to make something I like.
    Unless ofc your grouping with like minded members where the healer is the dps the pally the support and everyone else is dead.
    I was attempting to punctuate the point that this thread is about BYOH, you seem to have sidetracked away from that. You are informing everyone here that in your groups you expect clearly defined roles according to the class icon, now that works for you so fine, but it's being declared in the wrong thread.

  5. #285
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post

    No the thinking isn't really that limited.

    To me it is black and white that you should be able to heal yourself if you are bringing your own healing. Just as black and white as you asking for a trapper that can do traps.

    Should your trapper blow a box and die do you leave his soulstone in the trap and move on? It happens. Does that mean that a "Know your role" LFM automatically means that if you can't handle your job that you're going to get treated poorly? Maybe. I don't join those lfms because they seem exclusionary.

    While playing in any type of group you can run across occasional people that are going to belittle you and treat others poorly. Put the blame on that individual not everyone playing that class or playstyle.



    Then you aren't really talking to most of those posting.
    Thank you for seeing that i am making a fair comparison here.

    Do i leave the rogue's stone in the trap? Never, not even if i'm fairly certain retrieving it will kill me too. If we are high enough level, there will be someone in the party who can rez them, even if it's a hireling.

    I've never criticized anyone i've played with who was trying to do something, and failed. I've only kicked a handful of toons out my groups since i've been playing. None of them had anything to do with the competence level of the player.

    I've been with many rogues who blew boxes. My first reaction is to absolve them from guilt. I tell them that as long as they have been putting skill points into the trapping skills, anything else can be fixed easily. I tell them everything i know about succesfully disarming traps, and offer to help them achieve it. If they don't want help, i don't say anything else about it, i just hope they roll higher on the next trap.

    Now i'm not a saint, and there is a good chance that after the quest, i will bow out from the group. What i WON"T do, is boot them. If the person that inherits the group boots them, that's their call, but the blood won't be on my hands.

  6. #286
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    BYOH = Black & White

    For me it means be self sufficient. There will be no nannybot to heal me during the quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    If you play a healer I believe you do it because you like to support
    Ugh.

  8. #288
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    And here we find the answer to why some people think byoh has no teamwork and are _____. People that don't like the idea join to be ________ to try to make the playstyle look like a group of __________. Thank you for admitting to this.
    and there goes the winner.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    Your turn, now : can I put this in my signature ?
    I feel the need to tell that this greenish-yellow purple is taken from my favorite writer Terry Pratchett who defined the "color of magic" that way in his same titled book.

    And yes I admit all them _________ are true, whatever they mean. Especially if they substitute 1. stupid 2. snarkily awesome 3. zerging elitists

  10. #290
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Festus, you give stories about the cleric that doesn't heal what so ever and infer that all byoh'ers are _________

    I could tell stories about joining a no description pug and having the barb swear at me for not healing him when he's around the corner, does that mean all regular pugs are full of __________.

    Or is this the internet where you will run into some good people, some _________ and everything in between?
    I don't doubt anything you're saying here. I've experienced it all myself. I remember almost blowing up on a guy in the depths chain elite way, way back when my cleric was level 5, and i had been playing less than a month.

    The guy had voice chat, and he sounded so much like Pauly Shore that i'm only 99% sure it wasn't him. He was a clod.
    He had a cleric hireling, and me. He stepped into the boss room with the elementals. Exactly 2 steps in, just far enough in to let every elemental in the room simultaneously beat on him. He didn't move again, but began shouting "heal me, heal me, oh my god, 2 clerics, and i can't get healed!" The thing is, i was healing him. That's ALL i was doing, spamming cure light and moderate constantly just as fast as they came off cooldown. Miraculously, he actually didn't die.

    W get to the next fight, and get mobbed, and once again, i'm running around the room healing him, because if i had done one other thing, even healing myself, he would have died. Meanwhile the whole time he's saying "god, help me fight these things, help me kill them! why aren't you helping me fight?" After we again survive the battle, he says something along the lines of " well i can see why you were running around, you are kind of squishy". Needless to say, this didn't make me happy, so i told (typed) that i was running around to get space so that i could heal him, and if i had stopped healing him for even a second, he would have died. (true) He basically said hey, that's your job, there's nothing i can really do about it. I said "you could try moving!" He actually had a little chuckle and said " you mean just not stand there letting them beat on me? yeah i guess i could try that.

    Now if that sounds bad, as an experience it was worse. I was exasperated, and flat out p'd off. It actually took me a while to calm down from that. I have a psychological button that sets me off anytime i get blamed for something that isn't my fault. I never react well to it. Childhood conditioning, etc.

    This is one of the reasons i will never come down on people who try to do something, and fail. People who don't try are a different story.

  11. #291
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I don't doubt anything you're saying here. I've experienced it all myself. I remember almost blowing up on a guy in the depths chain elite way, way back when my cleric was level 5, and i had been playing less than a month.

    The guy had voice chat, and he sounded so much like Pauly Shore that i'm only 99% sure it wasn't him. He was a clod.
    He had a cleric hireling, and me. He stepped into the boss room with the elementals. Exactly 2 steps in, just far enough in to let every elemental in the room simultaneously beat on him. He didn't move again, but began shouting "heal me, heal me, oh my god, 2 clerics, and i can't get healed!" The thing is, i was healing him. That's ALL i was doing, spamming cure light and moderate constantly just as fast as they came off cooldown. Miraculously, he actually didn't die.

    W get to the next fight, and get mobbed, and once again, i'm running around the room healing him, because if i had done one other thing, even healing myself, he would have died. Meanwhile the whole time he's saying "god, help me fight these things, help me kill them! why aren't you helping me fight?" After we again survive the battle, he says something along the lines of " well i can see why you were running around, you are kind of squishy". Needless to say, this didn't make me happy, so i told (typed) that i was running around to get space so that i could heal him, and if i had stopped healing him for even a second, he would have died. (true) He basically said hey, that's your job, there's nothing i can really do about it. I said "you could try moving!" He actually had a little chuckle and said " you mean just not stand there letting them beat on me? yeah i guess i could try that.

    Now if that sounds bad, as an experience it was worse. I was exasperated, and flat out p'd off. It actually took me a while to calm down from that. I have a psychological button that sets me off anytime i get blamed for something that isn't my fault. I never react well to it. Childhood conditioning, etc.

    This is one of the reasons i will never come down on people who try to do something, and fail. People who don't try are a different story.
    See with the exception of people like ulgabi who has admitted to griefing to make byoh look bad, I think there are really two groups of people that run byoh. The vast majority in my time joining and running them is that we're not waiting for a divine, trapper, or anything else, we're hear to kill some mobs, earn some xp, and get some loot. Yes I don't like hires, and yes I think you are 100% responsible for your red bar, that said if I notice you are in trouble I'll help if I can, but I am not paying attention to your red bar so at best the chance of that is maybe 50:50. Then there is the minority that states "BYOH, know it, no -10%" and the second two conditions are missed. As mentioned in previous threads I believe some of this can be differences in server culture but on thelanis in my experience about 80% are the first type.

  12. #292
    Community Member Dieterstrife's Avatar
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    LFM:

    Don't count on that healer, he's got severe ADHD. BYOH Black and White don't argue PUPPY!!!!
    De'Corenai of Argonessen. If you've seen me, you know what I'm talking about.

  13. #293
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    Things aren't always either gray or black and white. Sometimes it's something in between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    See with the exception of people like ulgabi who has admitted to griefing to make byoh look bad, I think there are really two groups of people that run byoh. The vast majority in my time joining and running them is that we're not waiting for a divine, trapper, or anything else, we're hear to kill some mobs, earn some xp, and get some loot. Yes I don't like hires, and yes I think you are 100% responsible for your red bar, that said if I notice you are in trouble I'll help if I can, but I am not paying attention to your red bar so at best the chance of that is maybe 50:50. Then there is the minority that states "BYOH, know it, no -10%" and the second two conditions are missed. As mentioned in previous threads I believe some of this can be differences in server culture but on thelanis in my experience about 80% are the first type.
    I find it unfair that you simply turn around things others say and alter it to prove your point. I play by them rules even if I find them stupid. Its not griefing especially if...
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I think you are 100% responsible for your red bar
    Now if it was a BYOHASIWTO group I would help. As a matter of fact my 1st life rogue will be able to scroll resurrect and heal to join groups with a healer and save them from an accidental party wipe, and not to prove your point.
    BYOH is evil and the bane of society.

  15. #295
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulgabi View Post
    As a matter of fact my 1st life rogue will be able to scroll resurrect and heal to join groups with a healer and save them from an accidental party wipe, and not to prove your point.
    Truly fantastic.
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
    Le Dernier Chapitre ///// Argonnessen

  16. #296
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    Who cares if the lfm was labelled "be able to solo one side" or "byoh" or "be self sufficient" - it's all the same. If you prefer arguing and discussing terminology and semantics over gaming that's your choice but I prefer gaming. I don't get it : he - and apparently you too - never joins a byoh group and knows better than everyone what kind of experience it is. So seriously (beside the fact that servers are down) why feel an urgent need of speaking about it ? I personnally don't do PvP. Thus you'll never see me posting in the PvP section. ( Well I did once but was only answering a guildies joke.)
    Read the Op again, the entire point of it is semantic. Basically, what does byoh mean, really?

    Why do i care? Because i haven't just read this byoh thread, i've read through all of them, at east for the last 6 months or so. Many of them were started with this theme: Why do people join my byoh lfms's when they aren't qualfied for them?

    Short answer: Because nobody, including the people who post them, can actually say what the expectaions are. Not as a group, which is the only way it could be useful if you don't actually know the person posting it.

    Just in this thread alone the qualifications range from the draconic heal yourself or die, to byoh parties that have so much helping and healing flying around that it would make parties with the most dedicated healbot envious.
    Is there really any mystery why someone might join an lfm that says this and turn out not to be qualified for that particular flavor of it?

    Someone asked a question, and i'm trying to come up with an answer for it. I'm helpful like that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    Look I'll give you a very simple example. 6 ppl farming rayum. for quicker farm, they split in 3 group of 2. There's only 1 cleric. If you're not in his tower, your problem is not if you stacked a couple of pots "to show you're trying" (who cares, lol) but if you'll be able to do your part of the quest. So if you can't survive mummy rots, traps, lightning bolts or melf's you're not self sufficient.
    That's pretty much exactly what i've always assumed it meant. No need to convince me. Try and convince the 70% or so of the byoh advocates in this thread to agree with 'us'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    Just say in party chat you rolled a one.
    Meh, that works for a little while, but eventually that 50% one rate starts to look suspicious.

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    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Meh, that works for a little while, but eventually that 50% one rate starts to look suspicious.
    Why ? There's even a guild called rollin' twenties. Why not rollin' ones ?
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
    Le Dernier Chapitre ///// Argonnessen

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    You are quite right. You have made no argument to disprove my claim. I never stated divines can't contribute in a byoh group at all. I was just trying to determine the expected amount of their contribution as oposed to other classes in a group where they are not required to use the strong side of their class.
    You honestly think you can assign a percentage based on class alone without considering the player, gear or build?

    It is also a little amusing to read festus's threads about the evils of byoh having an inherent gimp check interlaced with your threads about byoh divines being autogimps.

  19. #299
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruener View Post
    I cant tell if your serious or not. Maybe I woke up before my reading comprehension did. But this reads to me that you think your hands are tied when you join a byoh. you can heal someone in any group that you please. just because you join a byoh doesnt mean you cant help out your party members. its just means dont expect them to help you.
    It's worse than that, it reads to me that they troll byoh groups to try to give them a bad name.

  20. #300
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Indeed.

    I've never seen such consistent vilification as that which comes with these types of threads. The fun part is when you start asking questions and find out why they can't survive anything without a hireling or spam healer. You start offering suggestions. Then you graduate to being the devil...
    I guess I'm looking at this from a different perspective than you. I'm an adult, and I tend to think of the other people on the forums as adults. That's my mistake for making that assumption. If you're a child I sincerely apologize, and want you to know that some day you will understand this is a just a game. I know it seems like your whole life right now, but believe me, someday you'll be going to high school and that will seem like your whole life as well, but there will come a day when as an adult you look back and realize none of it was nearly as big of a deal as you made it out to be.

    As far as the vilification of a play style by this thread, I don't know which thread you are looking at, but THIS thread has only asked one question from the very beginning, does BYOH really mean BYOH or does it merely mean BYOHish. It's people like you that have gotten all bent out of shape and started all sorts of arguments in a thread that is merely asking a simple question. I was unsure why you BYOHers are unable to show this thread the same respect you demand from the players who join your party. You claim to be a terrific bunch of people brimming with companionship and teamwork, yet in this thread all I see is a bunch of monkeys swinging from the chandelier and slinging their feces everywhere.

    Finally, as for your insinuation that everyone that doesn't follow your style of play is a lesser player who needs your help, well, I guess I can't blame you too much, when I was a kid I guess I thought I knew everything too. However, in this situation, there's something you've been unable to understand for a very long time. Most people who play this game do not attach their sense of self worth to their character. I understand that in your life, DDO might be the best thing you got going, and hey man, I get that and it's cool. However, you should try to understand that a lot of folks have jobs, families, and other obligations that prevent them from playing 8-12 hours a day even if they wanted to. Furthermore, when they do play, their goal is very different than yours. They aren't looking to grind out as many past lives as possible, max out all their EDs, or even acquire phat raid lootz. They just want to have some fun killing monsters with sticks in this ROLE PLAYING GAME.

    To you, it's a numbers game and you're all about gaming the system. I'm not interested in playing a numbers game. Even if my barbarian could no fail heal scrolls, I most certainly wouldn't want to use that as his primary source of heals. If that means I can't play with you, dude, I just really want you to understand this, I couldn't care less. Believe me, I'm not sitting around pining away, wishing I could join your BYOH group. DDO is an easy game for the most part, I've played about as much as anyone else, quite a bit more than most, so I'm... let's just say that I'm not a liability to any party on any character. Yes, the vast majority of my characters are completely self sufficient, even my barbarian carries a couple hundred cure serious and a full assortment of debuff removing potions at all times. Yet, even though my barbarian was the first character I created when I moved to Thelanis a couple years ago, he's still only level 19 because I only play him on rare occasion with guildies. When I play on my barbarian, and this really goes for all my characters but the barbarian probably illustrates this the best, I'm not looking to be the mostest awesomest, rootin' tootinest, gawl darn'd all around hero of the universe. Like always, I just want to hit monsters with sticks, but this time I want to hit them really, really hard with a very big stick.

    In our guild runs, there's always a healer, usually a real person, but sometimes a hireling. Quite often, especially in endgame content like EE, it is me. I know a lot of people feel like every time they have to throw someone else a heal somewhere a puppy dies, but not me. My first life FVS is solid as a rock, and he can dish out the pain and the healing in equal proportions. It doesn't hurt my feelings one bit when I throw a heal on someone. Sometimes, not often but sometimes, I even have to drop back and go into full time heal mode, somewhere there must be a sea of dead puppies.

    BYOH is because:
    1. you don't want to wait for a healer
    2. you don't want to heal if you're on a divine
    3. you only want to play with super uber players so that you can make a quick easy quest even quicker and easier... errr... sorry, I mean efficient.


    Everyone I know that plays the game doesn't have a single problem with any of that. Since I play more than most of my guildies, I tend to pug a lot. I always use "All Welcome" and when the last spot rolls around I ask if everyone wants to wait on a healer, go with a hire, or just take whatever we get. Personally, I'd rather go ahead with what we've got, but this is just a game, and by throwing up a LFM I've asked these people for their help, so I respect their desires as much as my own.

    I think that's the heart of the problem. Most BYOHers don't feel posting a LFM is asking for help. They think so highly of themselves that they honestly believe they are giving to charity when they post a LFM. I, Suppawsoman, do hereby proclaim that in an unfathomable degree of generosity I will allow five of the weak, gimp masses to accompany me on my next quest to bare witness to my perfection should they meet the following conditions and agree to follow the set of rules outlined below:

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