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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Example:

    1) you need to stun a target before you actually DPS him and killing him will take already 2 seconds and 2) assuming, by pure fantasy, that your stun will be off cooldown already, you will need to stun and DPS another target, for another 3 seconds, 6 total. In 6 seconds, you killed 2 mobs. Assassinate can kill both of them in pretty much 2 second.

    Your single target may be even 800k DPS but unless you are 1-hitting mobs there-is-no-way that Assassinate would be slower than DPS on trash.
    The way it usually goes is like: LW, MS, GC, Cleave, MS. Everything around you is dead or 1 hit away from dying.

    Stunning is mostly for setting up blitz and killing orange nameds.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Kmnh, do you get SA much from your cleaves? I have been thinking about trying to up my AoE DPS but my base damage is not very high. I'm guessing this works much better with weapons then handwraps because of their higher base damage and better critical profile.

  3. #43
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    Well, I think this guy agrees with me . The look on his face is priceless.
    I went on Lam with my INT based Rogue because I'm thinking, "Man, how the heck do those numbers get that high??" Legendary Dreadnaught twisted with sense weakness = pure win. Was getting those kinds of numbers (I saw some 3k crits in there) on a fully stacked Master Blitz with a 51DC assassinate as well, it was gold.

    Some problems though. It found it very difficult to get MB up to 50 stacks (probably took me 5 minutes). Also difficult to keep it up throughout a quest. I basically had to zerg the quest with my pocket healer in full tow trying to keep up so my stack wouldn't run out. If I'm soloing a quest where I can do that, no problem. But with the people I group with, that wouldn't fly at all. However, if you can keep it up through the whole quest there is no beating it. If you can't, you'll bring more utility and DPS to the table as a Shadowdancer. Now, back to the op...

    I'm starting to think with U17 just around the corner, I may want to replace Precision with Power Attack if I can get my hands on a Flawless Black Dragonscale armor. Still debating whether the hit to my to-hit is worth it or not... something to think about imo.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    The way it usually goes is like: LW, MS, GC, Cleave, MS. Everything around you is dead or 1 hit away from dying.

    Stunning is mostly for setting up blitz and killing orange nameds.
    5 actions to kill them. Assassinate would kill 2 of them with 1 hit and you would still be able to do those actions after that. Seems to me that however you put it, assassinate is faster (it's an instakill after all).

    It's like comparing Finger of Death to Arcane dps: if you have the DC, in no way you can Polar ray/chain lightning/Meteor swarm a mob faster than FoD. And assassinate is like 2 FoD at once.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Kmnh, do you get SA much from your cleaves? I have been thinking about trying to up my AoE DPS but my base damage is not very high. I'm guessing this works much better with weapons then handwraps because of their higher base damage and better critical profile.
    You get full SA from cleaves, but no affhand attack. The damage is similar to what the average barbarian gets.

    Momentum swing is like 2 cleaves, it does an offhand attack.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    5 actions to kill them. Assassinate would kill 2 of them with 1 hit and you would still be able to do those actions after that. Seems to me that however you put it, assassinate is faster (it's an instakill after all).

    It's like comparing Finger of Death to Arcane dps: if you have the DC, in no way you can Polar ray/chain lightning/Meteor swarm a mob faster than FoD. And assassinate is like 2 FoD at once.
    On my wizard I never use FoD on groups of mobs. If wail is on cooldown, I use mass hold and AoE spells/abilities. FoD is good at neutralizing casters from a distance, but it's not good DPS when compared to the AoE stuff.

    Edit, making the math more clear:

    If I FoD a mob that would die to AoE spells tat I am about to cast, FoD effectively dealt 0 damage and slowed my DPS down. With assassinate and cleaves it goes the same way: the mob would have died anyway and you took longer to start cleaving.
    Last edited by Kmnh; 02-20-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sploigy View Post
    Mellkor's build follows the other extreme, maximising Assassinate DC at any cost, resulting in sub-par DPS (compared to Rogann's build) when facing end bosses or Mobs that are Immune to SA/Assassinate.
    There are a total of zero mobs that are immune to sneak attack after being hit with the Shadowdancer capstone, and you can easily penetrate 65% fortification by yourself (25% precision, 10% opportunist, 15% Shadowdancer, 15% new black dragon armor from GH).

    Furthermore, only starting with 12 or 14 STR and not have 18/20+6 level-ups is less than a 5% decrease in damage. You know, 26d6+20 sneak attack damage and all.

    There's also the enhancement pass to consider. Rogues will Soon® be getting a DEX-to-dmg ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    Assassinate is in a bad spot. There are very few mobs that you can assassinate faster than a max str rogue would DPS down.

    You're joking, right?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    ...
    Kmnh, firstly I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread. It seems lately that there have been very few STR based rogues posting on the forums(esp compared to the recent popularity of the INT based rogue), the result (in my opinion) is that most STR based builds are pre-U14 and fail to fully take into account the changes ED's brought to the game, your insights on cleave and LD ED were greatly appreciated.

    If possible could answer a few questions regarding you build, just to help my understanding of a LD rogue.

    (1) Could you post your stunning blow DC, from what I'm hearing a SB DC of around 60 is required to stun reliably in EE, AFAIK the formula for SB is DC= 10+Str+Enhancement bonuses, if we add in +10 from a stunning item and +5 from the epic spare hand that still leaves +35 that needs to come from STR or enhancements.

    You can get a further +6 from the LD tree but that still leaves you needing around 60ish STR... does your character reliably reach this level of STR or do you rely on temporary procs like titan's/House C bracers/madstone boots when you want to stun orange names?

    (2) I see that you have both Cleave and Great cleave listed as taken feats, I was wondering if you could post your entire feat selection to see how you managed to fit this in, as the only way I could see to achieve this is to drop ISA, Khopesh or Improved Crit.

    (3) Would you be able to post your defensive statistics. One of my key concerns about not going SD is loosing the +25% incorprality, Improved Invisibility, Meld and the +dodge bonus, I think that these abilities are key for allowing a d6 Hp class character to survive in EE.

    (4) Finally I was wondering do you ever use Assassinate at all? the way I see it if you twist in the +6 assassinate DC from shadowdancer, start with around 14 INT, and grab and EMG, you could have a sufficient DC to reliably assassinate casters (arguably the most important targets to instakill anyways). As a follow up does cleave work with assassinate, because that could be terrifying!


    As an aside, I do think that you are misrepresenting the DPS output of assassinate in comparison to your build, if you want to look at the peak DPS output of an assassinate it would be two 6k hp mobs in 1 second for around 12k, the 1,000DPS figure I quoted was an attempt to be more reasonable by taking into account that my build will not have max assassinate DC, and that in all quests there are times where you have to walk to the next room etc.
    I still think the screenshot you posted is very useful though as it allows us to compare the peak DPS output of both builds, additionally everything posted in your SS (bar the stun + sense weakness) can be applied to a boss giving us a good idea of a STR rogues boss DPS.

    You also raised an interesting point regarding your trash mob DPS with MS, LW, GC, Cleave etc. This concept is very similar to the conversation myself and Tid12 were having regarding the advantages of a STR based rogue with OC and Cleaves. It seems you have a better grasp on this concept and I was wondering if you could comment on how this Cleave DPS compares to an INT based rogues constant assassinates.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    There are a total of zero mobs that are immune to sneak attack after being hit with the Shadowdancer capstone, and you can easily penetrate 65% fortification by yourself (25% precision, 10% opportunist, 15% Shadowdancer, 15% new black dragon armor from GH).
    Yup, Yup very familiar with all that it was listed in the (granted rather long and unwieldy) first post, heck you can even throw in Improved Sunder and Destruction in there for even more fort bypass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Furthermore, only starting with 12 or 14 STR and not have 18/20+6 level-ups is less than a 5% decrease in damage.
    I see where your coming from but I think that stating that 20STR vs 14STR only equates to a +3 Dmg/ToHit difference is a bit short-sighted. Its similar to someone claiming that 20INT Vs 14INT only amounts to extra skill points and maybe +15% more assassinates if your lucky and the mob falls within a certain DC range.

    The truth is the difference between STR and INT builds isnt really in the stats, they are just the starting points but rather its in the build philosophy that follows, ie STR users will take khopesh proficiency and ED abilities that increase crit multipliers + threat range to further increase the damage difference vs INT users, STR rogues are more likely to use tactical feats like stunning blow or to take PA+ improved PA for more +[W] while relying on something like improved sunder to provide a fort de-buff etc.

    Similarly despite both builds having usable assassinate DC's the INT based builds will be using assassinate allot more, they are also more likely to be in the SD ED and taking advantage of the +dodge bonuses, Consume, Shadow manipulation etc. They can also find more inventive ways to offset their DPS disadvantage for example by using the EMG and having a +10 enhancement bonus Vs a STR based rogues +5. This is all without mentioning the very different gearing requirements and play-styles.

    So I really don't think its fair to reduce this to an argument about +15% assassinate DC Vs +3 Dmg, I think the reality is allot more complicated (and Fun!!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    There's also the enhancement pass to consider. Rogues will Soon® be getting a DEX-to-dmg ability.
    I've given the enhancement pass a decent read, and to be honest I still think DEX vs STR will still be hotly contested even after the pass. The current rough draft looks like it will balance DEX-to-DMG by limiting it to 19-20/18-20 x2, 1d4 weapons (daggers and kukris).

    The immediate disadvantages I see with this are:
    (1) Limited to slashing/piercing damage --> no way to bypass bludgeon DR, making undead even more of a nightmare
    (2) Poor damage profile compared to a Khopesh
    (3) Lack of decent named daggers/kukris
    (4) Will require AP, and given some of the tasty options in the pass I think my AP will be at a premium

    Additionally there was the comment from the DEVs that they are aware that dex to damage, hit, AC and reflex would be OP and that they will try to ensure that it is balanced(as if 1d4 wasn't bad enough!!) vs STR users.

    Anyways so given all of this I think i'll reserve my final opinions on the enhancement pass until we see it. Which given the fact that there is still no confirmed date, and that we (apparently) know it wont be in U18 means I wont be holding my breath.
    Also the DEVs have said that there will be free LR's with the pass, so If dex does become a tempting option I can change then

  10. #50
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    After playing some with my rogue on epic elite in update 17 the mob's fortitude saves went up so I am not sure a middle ground rogue is as feasible a concept. Your rogue's intelligence is higher then mine so you can presumably still reliable get the spellcasters, but the melee mobs less reliably. I am not sure if that is your intent, but what have you.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    After playing some with my rogue on epic elite in update 17 the mob's fortitude saves went up so I am not sure a middle ground rogue is as feasible a concept. Your rogue's intelligence is higher then mine so you can presumably still reliable get the spellcasters, but the melee mobs less reliably. I am not sure if that is your intent, but what have you.
    Yeah I feel the same way playing around on my halfling first life rogue atm, it looks like the mobs saves are now definitely in the 60-ish region as opposed the ~55 I was having success with before. I'm going to have to play around some more to see what the casters fort saves are. As long as they say around the 50's this build should be viable, I never intended to be able to assassinate the high fort save (melee) targets anyways, that was what the DPS was for.

    Just checked Mellkor's post and apparently he's still having success which is a good sign, but he too is worried about the sacrifices that a no-fail assassinate DC will require. TBH I think that as far as eGH is concerned, we might just have to accept that fort saves are generally too high in that one area to be worth building for, and just go back to enchantment/will save CC + DPS for that content in particular. Hopefully any new Epic content introduced wont continue the OTT saves inflation seen in Highroads or GH, and fort saves will once again return to reasonable levels.

    One trick I've been using is enervation scrolls with bluff + assassinate, that seems to help a bit
    Last edited by Sploigy; 02-24-2013 at 10:50 AM.

  12. #52
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sploigy View Post
    One trick I've been using is enervation scrolls with bluff + assassinate, that seems to help a bit
    What a novel idea, I had never considered enervation scrolls. How are the GH mobs' SR? not good I'm assuming?

    Alternatively, I've been using Sacrificial Daggers to pretty good success.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sploigy View Post
    Kmnh, firstly I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread. It seems lately that there have been very few STR based rogues posting on the forums(esp compared to the recent popularity of the INT based rogue), the result (in my opinion) is that most STR based builds are pre-U14 and fail to fully take into account the changes ED's brought to the game, your insights on cleave and LD ED were greatly appreciated.

    If possible could answer a few questions regarding you build, just to help my understanding of a LD rogue.
    (1) Could you post your stunning blow DC, from what I'm hearing a SB DC of around 60 is required to stun reliably in EE, AFAIK the formula for SB is DC= 10+Str+Enhancement bonuses, if we add in +10 from a stunning item and +5 from the epic spare hand that still leaves +35 that needs to come from STR or enhancements.
    My rogue is a half-orc.

    20 base str
    6 level ups
    3 tome
    3 insightful
    8 item
    5 primal scream
    3 profane (chronoscope set)
    2 enhancement
    2 yugo pot
    2 ship buff
    4 Tenser's Transformation scrolls, that you use on big/important fights

    58.

    Also, since I have a warhammer on my main hand, I can use Anvil of Thunder for a 50ish% chance of a no-fail stun, on a separate cooldown.

    (2) I see that you have both Cleave and Great cleave listed as taken feats, I was wondering if you could post your entire feat selection to see how you managed to fit this in, as the only way I could see to achieve this is to drop ISA, Khopesh or Improved Crit.
    I dropped Khopesh and ISA. As a dreadnought, my warhammers have the same crit range that a khopesh would. I did the math and overwhelming critical adds a bit more damage than ISA would for my character.

    Power attack, cleave, great cleave, IC:bludgeoning, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Overwhelming Critical, Stunning blow. You can swap OC for toughness if this is too aggressive for you - I do when I am on a soloing mood.

    (3) Would you be able to post your defensive statistics. One of my key concerns about not going SD is loosing the +25% incorprality, Improved Invisibility, Meld and the +dodge bonus, I think that these abilities are key for allowing a d6 Hp class character to survive in EE.
    Defense is tricky. I have a lot of displacement clickies so I can always keep it going. I have 40 PRR, a bit more with tenser's going. The Cloak of Night grants me dr 10/good and 10% incorporeality. My HP can go up to 800 on tanking situations and I always wear 50% healing amp. I use heal scrolls and silver flame potions to keep my HP topped off, so I don't die to double strikes, critical hits or failed disintegrate rolls.

    Dreadnought is surprisingly good on the defensive side. With displacement and uncanny dodge active, you are almost unkillable. The Thick Skinned clickie grants you 30 seconds of -25% incoming damage with a 2 minutes cooldown. +60 HP, the crowd control effects.. If you don't pull too many mobs, you have a very easy time staying alive.

    (4) Finally I was wondering do you ever use Assassinate at all? the way I see it if you twist in the +6 assassinate DC from shadowdancer, start with around 14 INT, and grab and EMG, you could have a sufficient DC to reliably assassinate casters (arguably the most important targets to instakill anyways). As a follow up does cleave work with assassinate, because that could be terrifying!
    Cleave doesn't work with assassinate. The strategies are mutually exclusive - If you cleave, you do damage to all the mobs and get all the aggro.


    As an aside, I do think that you are misrepresenting the DPS output of assassinate in comparison to your build, if you want to look at the peak DPS output of an assassinate it would be two 6k hp mobs in 1 second for around 12k, the 1,000DPS figure I quoted was an attempt to be more reasonable by taking into account that my build will not have max assassinate DC, and that in all quests there are times where you have to walk to the next room etc.
    Assassinate has other issues beyond "peak DPS". As I said on the other post, assassinating mobs that would have died to stuff that someone else is already doing doesn't add any DPS to the party. It's common to see parties where the assassin has a nice kill count, but the quest would have gone in the same speed if he piked at the entrance.

    I still think the screenshot you posted is very useful though as it allows us to compare the peak DPS output of both builds, additionally everything posted in your SS (bar the stun + sense weakness) can be applied to a boss giving us a good idea of a STR rogues boss DPS.
    That screenshot is not a good example of peak boss DPS - there are many buffs that I am not using and that boss has some damage reduction. I happened to have it around and posted it because the idea of not beating 1000 DPS looked absurd.

    You also raised an interesting point regarding your trash mob DPS with MS, LW, GC, Cleave etc. This concept is very similar to the conversation myself and Tid12 were having regarding the advantages of a STR based rogue with OC and Cleaves. It seems you have a better grasp on this concept and I was wondering if you could comment on how this Cleave DPS compares to an INT based rogues constant assassinates.
    With blitz going, the cleave rogue has much higher DPS, but it takes a lot of gear and careful play to reach the critical mass of burst DPS that you need to use Master's Blitz on a powerful group. If you can't activate blitz, that means that the cleaver can't land his required 1 kill every 15 seconds - the quest is very easy for this party and you shouldn't be worried about trash DPS.

    Even without blitz, the dreadnought's boss DPS is a lot higher than a shadowdancer's would be. Too many abilities that add damage plus the insane innate that lets you spam action boosts.

    A full blitz stack makes some bosses look like a joke - I wish the ability would not work on those.
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  14. #54
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Assassinate is a "big DC" ability. It scales well and is moderately easy to get on a first-lifer into the workable zone.

    If you're not aiming for that to be in the ee workable zone, then I wouldn't even maybe bother and instead focus on raw rogue-ish DPS (which you can totally do).
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  15. #55
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    A couple of points from a slightly different perspective, I'm a wisdom based rogue with stunning fist and manyshot (18rogue/1monk/1ranger).

    First off my experiences, with stunning fist in the 57-60 range I have been able to nab EE mobs ~75%of the time i would estimate, I would assume that since assassinate works on a similar 2 attack mode you could get similar results.

    Myself I rarely run in LD but between combat brute and reduced coldown's of action boosts (and duel action boosts from half elf + rogue) the non-blitz DPS is still absurd. I took my rogue into the claw and beat on the giant with just stun + duel boosting, he died in about 42 seconds, or roughly 1500 dps. This is without master blitz. As an aside, i took the same rogue into their and manshoted + fury eternal him down in 12 seconds for ~5500 dps.

    I find that without cleaves it is rather difficult to charge up master blitz, it takes a while. Secondly as a rogue the vast majority of your damage comes from sneak attack and when presented with a target that's hard to sneak attack you can easily lose your master blitz if its not fully charged.

    Now for my opinions. I think the argument of str vs int rogues is miss-placed, the obvious answer is a build more like yours, small sacrifices in both to get viable use of both. You can think of assassinate as a single hit on a target, kinda like a big adrenaline hit. In the end your a rogue you do more dps then 90% of the server even if your waving around a quarterstaff.

    The real issues for rogues are: do you want to do AoE damage, and how do you want to get your SA dmg in. I have really started to think that being able to swich between modes depending on the quest might be the best way. You may be able to get the best of both worlds:

    Cleave
    G.Cleave
    TWF
    ITWF
    GTWF
    toughness
    Improved sneak attack
    Improved critical
    PA

    If human:
    Precision/PL sneak of shadows/koplesh/whatever

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    I find that without cleaves it is rather difficult to charge up master blitz, it takes a while. Secondly as a rogue the vast majority of your damage comes from sneak attack and when presented with a target that's hard to sneak attack you can easily lose your master blitz if its not fully charged.
    My rogue's damage is more like 1/3 sneak attack + 1/3 critical hits and seeker effects + 1/3 base damage and added effects. I can see how a wisdon-based rogue would have a lower base damage gain much less from criticals.

    I keep weapon sets on my bar to deal with annoying hard-to-crit mobs. Triple pos for undead, smiters for constructs, Banishing for elementals. The "vorpal-ish" effects helps a lot when you need to maintain blitz.
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    Thank you Kmnh for your reply, I didn't realise just how different your build was to the standard STR rogue build, it certainly made for some interesting reading.

    All of this has given me some serious food for thought I think I'm going to have to completely rework my build with more considerations to the effect ED's will have on it. TBH though with the changes introduced in U17 and the announcement that the enhancement pass beta is due to start in the spring, I'm beginning to feel that the original build is outdated.

    I'm pretty busy atm but I'll post a revised build asap

  18. #58
    Community Member benneburg's Avatar
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    This is basically how I've been building my end-game rogues the last 5 years. Tried high intelligence, strength and dex builds, and nothing seems to beat a well rounded rogue in fun or power.
    Nice thread by the way, been thinking about doing one myself, but my engrish isn't good enough to put it together as well as you have, and I'll read through the entire thread over the weekend when I get time.


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  19. #59
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    One thing to note between various builds is the Gear set up.

    Sure, starting with 14 Str instead of 20 Str would only be a loss of 4.5 base damage per swing(assuming off-hand proc).

    For example: Min/max Str dps rogue uses Ravager set bonus. Int/Dex Assassinate rogue does not. That's a loss of 2d12 damage per swing. You're already losing 2d12 + 4.5 damage per swing(assuming off-hand proc).

    Another example: A Str rogue can easily raise his Str mod. Where as Dex rogues cannot. On average a Str rogue would have 8+ more Str than a Dex rogue would have Dex. So there's another 6 more damage per swing.

    Sure you could rebuttal back saying "Both rogues can have the same gear set". That hardly happens in DDO. And as soon as they face defeat, they always pull out the "I do so much SA damage already, what's another [Insert damage amount here]"?
    Last edited by Rogann; 02-27-2013 at 10:52 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sploigy View Post
    Thank you Kmnh for your reply, I didn't realise just how different your build was to the standard STR rogue build, it certainly made for some interesting reading.

    All of this has given me some serious food for thought I think I'm going to have to completely rework my build with more considerations to the effect ED's will have on it. TBH though with the changes introduced in U17 and the announcement that the enhancement pass beta is due to start in the spring, I'm beginning to feel that the original build is outdated.

    I'm pretty busy atm but I'll post a revised build asap
    I ran a Tor the other day with 3 other rogues, all with different builds. There was a monk splash with stunning fist, a dex-build halfling, a str shadowdancer and my rogue. The best thing about DDO is how much we can customise our characters
    Kmnh * Kmn * Kmm * Knn * Knm

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