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  1. #21
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Bard.

    If you buff and pike, no one will look at you funny, but bards can still do (and should do) far more anyway. (I suggest spellsinger, they are the most loved bards assuming your group has a couple casters. They give spell points regeneration, which is otherwise very hard to find.) Essentially, it gives you time to get experience with the game while most people will not criticize you badly.

    By the way, the reason for that is because bards can specialize in healing, melee damage and/or crowd control. Building a bard to do all 3 well is near impossible. In fact, whichever one (or two) you choose to dump will be very bad, which means, when you see a random bard, you can't expect it to do one of those specific roles. Which many people take further and expect them to do none of those roles.

    If you can heal too, that would be even better. But don't say you can until you're confident you really can, since they're not really good enough to heal a party unless you specialize in it and know what you're doing. You'll also have to get to the point where you can burn wands (and eventually, get the UMD to burn heal scrolls) without worrying too much about the platinum costs, since they are a pretty major part of a healing bard in addition to taking the proper metamagics and devotion boosting gear/enhancements.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by arclyte99 View Post
    I think i'll stick with my original char and remake a pure dwarf fighter

    a question though: should I spend anything on shield feats or traits? People are saying shield bashing sucks
    Tanking is one of those niche abilities that sometimes is desirable but most commonly is not, and the sword'n'board method caters more to tanking. I prefer paladins for tanking, personally.

    With a fighter, however, you can take the feats for THF and S&B and switch out as you think is more appropriate. The THF feats apply to bastard swords and dwarven axes so you can mix and match the axe and board and a great axe depending on content if you want.

    People say a lot of things. If your fighter can tank as needed and do reasonable damage as needed don't sweat the small stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by arclyte99 View Post
    Aw man, is this true? I really wanted to make a Rogue that filled the lockpick/disarm niche that no one else could.
    It takes 1 rogue or artificer level to unlock trap finding. That means the ability is an easy splash traded off for class capstone. 2 rogue for evasion is a pretty common splash and anyone with a small splash plus the skill points to invest can handle traps. Wizard, Rangers, and Bards are some of the classes that might take on trap skills when they splash, and some clerics making use of the find traps spell.

    Jaid was correct, build for DPS. Traps are just a bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  3. #23
    Community Member jfgddo's Avatar
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    My first build ever was a dwarf cleric and it was a good learning experience for me on how to keep a group alive. Sometimes it was tough taking abuse from the people who just had to run ahead of everyone else and then blame me for them dying, but overall it was me who kept the groups alive most of the time and that in itself is somewhat rewarding. On another note, my second build was a bit of a challenge, 18 cleric/ 2 rogue (Clogue), but it was probally more fun for me because of the trap skills and evasion, with a little bit of melee offense, and also not having to wait to find a trapper cause I could do 97% of all the traps. ( Mostly failed the few from making stupid mistakes like not putting on items or buffs ) Some called me a gimp but I was always welcomed to a group!
    Last edited by jfgddo; 02-09-2013 at 06:08 PM.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by arclyte99 View Post
    Aw man, is this true? I really wanted to make a Rogue that filled the lockpick/disarm niche that no one else could.
    It is. I have no rogues, yet half my alts can disable traps with ease thanks to splashing 1 or 2 levels of rogue.

    Melee is easiest to learn on, probably. I'd recommend something like a tempest trapmonkey. It's a frontline melee with full trapping skills, pretty decent self-healing, plus a functional ranged attack for those rare times when you actually need to kill stuff at a distance. The only problem with the build as posted is that it dumps concentration. Max concentration and keep it maxed, sacrificing open lock to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    I tell you what new people learn, when playing a melee if they followed advice and wanted to sniff around first:

    They will learn that they are absolutley gear dependant and more important, it is demanded to an annoying grade by divines!! to be independant.

    They will learn, that, while being absolutley depending on buffs and items, they have a hard time grinding out stuff alone.

    They will learn, that they have to buy Necropolis for Silver Flame pot.s, otherwise they are bullied and demoralized by the community and, again, by the divines.


    Never play a melee as your first toon. Ever.
    You seem to think that melees can only heal from consumables. Both my melees (ranger, paladin) heal from their bluebars.

  5. #25
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    If you start off playing a cleric or favored soul you will have to be ready to take some abuse, however you will have an opportunity to observe the main thing about other classes that will help you play and build better characters, which is how and why they die.

  6. #26
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    The most desirable melee is a monk. The most desirable specialist is a rog. The most desirable mage is all of them. You can be a cleric, a sorc, a druid, a favored a wizard. Your almost guaranteed a spot unless you borked the build. Which is almost impossible to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It is. I have no rogues, yet half my alts can disable traps with ease thanks to splashing 1 or 2 levels of rogue.

    Melee is easiest to learn on, probably. I'd recommend something like a tempest trapmonkey. It's a frontline melee with full trapping skills, pretty decent self-healing, plus a functional ranged attack for those rare times when you actually need to kill stuff at a distance. The only problem with the build as posted is that it dumps concentration. Max concentration and keep it maxed, sacrificing open lock to do it.

    You seem to think that melees can only heal from consumables. Both my melees (ranger, paladin) heal from their bluebars.
    lol lets not head down that sad road.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    The most desirable melee is a monk. The most desirable specialist is a rog. The most desirable mage is all of them. You can be a cleric, a sorc, a druid, a favored a wizard.
    I don't recall ever, in years, of any group wanting to sit at the entrance and wait for most of those. Generally they want to wait for a healer or sometimes crowd control for hard content.

    I have received blind invites for someone looking for help with traps on a rogue but never a blind invite on a monk. I got them all the time on a cleric, favored soul, bard, and wizard. Seriously, all the time until I went anon, and when I drop anon to join a pug or send a tell I sometimes get blind invites on those classes before I remember to go anon again. Even the wizard doesn't get them like the bard, cleric, or fvs.

    One the bard, cleric, or fvs I can be anonymous and players whom I walk by in Stormreach will still send me tells. I'm surprised they don't do that on my druid, tbh. Druid healing is pretty decent and they have some handy spells.

    Healing is pretty much a universal need (healers are not but since they are a great source of healing... ). Everything else tends to be used based on situation and damage is easy to find.

    I disagree with your assessment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  8. #28
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    I tell you what new people learn, when playing a melee if they followed advice and wanted to sniff around first:

    They will learn that they are absolutley gear dependant and more important, it is demanded to an annoying grade by divines!! to be independant.

    They will learn, that, while being absolutley depending on buffs and items, they have a hard time grinding out stuff alone.

    They will learn, that they have to buy Necropolis for Silver Flame pot.s, otherwise they are bullied and demoralized by the community and, again, by the divines.


    Never play a melee as your first toon. Ever.
    i'll tell you what i've learned from my melees:

    those who can heal are usually only insistent on your being self-sufficient if you run off on your own. if you stay nearby, make use of the relatively limited healing that is readily available to a melee, you will very very seldom find anyone upset over your self-sufficiency or lack thereof.

    so, if you're going to make a fighter: bring cure serious wounds potions and use them when you're down a bit, stay in radiant servant auras when running between fights, use wands or even scrolls if your build allows for UMD, try to get a little bit of heal amp. same if you're a barbarian, though mostly without the UMD (can't UMD while raged). if you do this, you will very seldom catch any flak over your lack of silver flame potions.

    also, remember: there's a big difference between "i have silver flame potions" and "it is a good idea for me to solo everything because i have silver flame potions". they take up a lot of space, and they have hefty drawbacks... use them as a panic button, not as your first reaction to taking damage.

  9. #29
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    also, remember: there's a big difference between "i have silver flame potions" and "it is a good idea for me to solo everything because i have silver flame potions". they take up a lot of space, and they have hefty drawbacks... use them as a panic button, not as your first reaction to taking damage.
    As long as you're not surrounded by a bunch of hard-hitting mobs on a squishy toon, or you're not fighting casters, whether you are able to solo depends mostly on how much plat you wanna spend.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    As long as you're not surrounded by a bunch of hard-hitting mobs on a squishy toon, or you're not fighting casters, whether you are able to solo depends mostly on how much plat you wanna spend.
    i didn't say it was impossible to solo with them. i said that it isn't necessarily a good idea to solo. there's a difference.

    they're a wonderful and useful tool, and they make a great panic button if your main source of healing won't work for some reason (such as the cleric you've been relying on for heals dying, or you go running off and don't realize nobody came with you, or the heal scrolls you've been UMDing won't cut it while you're surrounded by mobs that will smash your +11 concentration skill, or you just now found out that the person in the group who is perfectly capable of healing with barely any sacrifice required at all is either clueless or has decided that they don't heal, or your hireling just decided it would be a great idea to melee epic raiyuum)... but i don't recommend them as a main source of healing if you can at all avoid it. the slowdown is painful, the penalty to saves is brutal, and the penalty to all attributes is no fun at all. drinking a silver flame potion will, in general, increase the amount of incoming damage you take, and reduce your outgoing damage. use it if you have to, avoid it like the plague if you don't... and if you don't have it, it shouldn't be a big deal the vast majority of the time.

    if you have silver flame potions, and they are one of several healing methods you can use... you're probably good to solo. if they are your only method of healing, you're going to have a bad time.

  11. #31
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i'll tell you what i've learned from my melees:

    those who can heal are usually only insistent on your being self-sufficient if you run off on your own. if you stay nearby, make use of the relatively limited healing that is readily available to a melee, you will very very seldom find anyone upset over your self-sufficiency or lack thereof.

    so, if you're going to make a fighter: bring cure serious wounds potions and use them when you're down a bit, stay in radiant servant auras when running between fights, use wands or even scrolls if your build allows for UMD, try to get a little bit of heal amp. same if you're a barbarian, though mostly without the UMD (can't UMD while raged). if you do this, you will very seldom catch any flak over your lack of silver flame potions.

    also, remember: there's a big difference between "i have silver flame potions" and "it is a good idea for me to solo everything because i have silver flame potions". they take up a lot of space, and they have hefty drawbacks... use them as a panic button, not as your first reaction to taking damage.
    My generalization was a reaction to another one. In the end everyone has to make first steps. I see equal standards in starting as a complete newbie. No matter if melee or caster.

    The most desired class in a group remains a divine. In random PuGs at least. I don't see the **** thrown at divines at all. When I started I said I was new or needed some help. I met more or less helpful people but never hostile environment.

    Susiedupfer practically said: Better to have no Cleric than a bad one and since everybody is forcing you into a nanny-bot role just don't start at all.

    A very negative opinion. Too negative for me. Divines are always wanted. If you really want to play an icon, which actually has a wild card for any group, play one. There is no guarantee that you will enjoy it for the longterm. But that is a given for every class and role.
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  12. #32
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    Default Best class to learn on

    I suggest a BARD....a warchanter (you can pick pretty much any of the THF builds around, multi or pure).

    The reason I say this is:

    1. Expectations of the party are that you play songs and buff. Hard to screw up.

    2. You can heal yourself (and your party), which is a big bonus. You can play support healer anytime. You can solo heal and replace a healer in 80% of the content once you are practiced.

    3. You can facinate. Very handy for soloing. Once you are practiced at it, facinate is a time and resource saving tool for a knowledgeable party.

    4. Once you get some gear collected, you can hit things pretty well if you built your toon right. You are not a tank or a DPS guy, but you can hit things and contribute and learn the quests from that perspective.

    5. You learn crowd control. I was kinda shocked reading this thread where nobody is listing CC classes as a most wanted class. I find it is much easier to find dedicated healers than well versed CC toons lately. I would say CC is in higher demand than healing on the ee realm. A bard is a great way to learn and understand those mechanics.

    6. High haggle. You need to make the most of your resources your first toon.

    7. UMD. You get to play with all the scrolls and wands and use gear that you otherwise could not use. Very handy.

    8. All parties and most raids will take a bard (sometimes need a bard).


    Quote Originally Posted by arclyte99 View Post
    Hey, I'm totally new to DDO and was wondering what classes people like to see the most in their dungeon crawl groups?

    My first char was a dwarf fighter that got to lvl 2, I decided I liked the game but it was a bit too easy, so I subbed so I can open elite dungeons right away.
    RTFM on Khyber

  13. #33

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    Glad you subbed in.

    If you enjoy the game even a fraction as much as I do you will have a great time.

    Here's my take on the different classes as played by a new, ungeared player. (my opinion only, obviously)

    Rogue - Honestly, I wouldn't go there. The reason being that it is crucial that a rogue manage agro. There is a fine line between a rogue being a highly survivable killing machine and being a squishy soul-stone-in-training. Without any gear or game knowledge I fear you will be the latter. Soloing may be hard if you can't UMD well or avoid direct agro.

    Artificer - Maybe better with the agro. You can range. But you are a trapper without evasion and as a new player that may be a tall order.

    Bard - Bard is a subtle role. A great bard can make a group much better. A bad bard does very little but sing songs. Charming mobs can be awesome if used well but can slow down a group and annoy people if used poorly.

    Ranger - Not a bad choice. However, range combat on an ungeared player can be weak-sauce. Poor agro management (which as a new player you may suffer from) and kiting is archetypical new-guy-with-ranger behavior and generally not appreciated.

    Wizard - Great choice if you want to be a spell slinger. Pale Master can keep you going. DCs will work on norm/hard for tricky spells. Running out of SP may be an issue. Can switch spells freely to learn how they work.

    Sorcerer - More SP then wizard and can more readily nuke but don't expect your ungeared Sorcerer to land many DC based spells in difficult content.

    Fighter - Great choice. You have many feats so if you a feat that turns out to be a bad choice it won't kill your build (probably). Lack of self-heals makes you dependent on the party or a hire, most likely.

    Barbarian - Also good but you run the risk of being a SP sponge what with your lack of defenses and inability, by virtue of newness, to avoid damage through tactics.

    Paladin - Good self heals but IMO pally takes some skill to get good DPS. If you just point the sword and swing, I think, you are better off with a more straight forward melee.

    Monk - Very survivable. But, like Pally, monk takes some skill to get the most out of the class and you may just end up a gimpish melee instead of the unkillable, crowd controlling, death-dealer you could be.

    Druid - I have little experience with this class sp I can't say for sure. However, I have never wished "Gosh, if we only had a Druid". Honestly, I've never even seen a druid that I thought stood out in the party as particularly effective. (/Girds Loins against rage from druid lovers )

    Favored Soul - Super awesome and powerful class. However you can't switch spells. Every feat is an important choice. You must always balance between killing mobs as you are capable of and healing the party. Multi-taskers dream. Confused, new-players nightmare.

    Cleric - <----Winner (IMO). Cleric is one of the most forgiving classes for poor gear. Cleric is much easier to heal with than FVS, what with aura and bursts (again IMO). You can switch spells. You will rarely get denied to a group. You will have to brace yourself because you will make mistakes and cause deaths or even wipes. People will say things to you that will get on your nerves. But you will also learn the game. IMO Divine classes are the great observers. You must observe the mobs, the party as well as the environment so you get a good sense for tactics that work and those that don't Take care not to just follow along and be a nanny-bot. Try to do things and not just have others do for you. Hold your tongue at times because you don't have understanding for why the other classes behave how they do.

    Most important - play the class you have most fun with!

    If you aren't passionate about your class you won't be very good, even if the class you choose is technically "stronger'.

    Just my 2cp.
    .
    BONGO FURY - Ghallanda - Thingfish - Wizard, Diuni - Ninja, Gheale - Angel, Dullknife - Tank, Noodlefish - Gimp, Jaquaby - Treacherous and other gimps I won't cop to.

  14. #34
    Community Member beilschmidt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arclyte99 View Post
    Aw man, is this true? I really wanted to make a Rogue that filled the lockpick/disarm niche that no one else could.
    If you build it right, rogues can be excellent trappers AND dps. So go for it if you want to play it.
    English is not my native language, so please excuse my mistakes.
    Thelanis: Fossette (Your DC'ing raid cleric), Ampora (party's gimp CC bard), Eridana (worst Paladin tank in your party), Laeressa ("kill before you get killed" Barbarian), Dualscar (uncharismatic WF sorcerer)

  15. #35
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Lots of good advice here, even if some of it is contradictory. .

    Phillymiket did a nice breakdown that I pretty much agreed with. I do have to agree with the majority and say that divines are probably not the best to start with. It generally helps, I find to get to know the quests and the game in general before jumping into a class that is so heavily desired (far and away the most desired in groups) and from whom so much is expected as well.

    I'd say that fighter is a great way to start.

    Splash rogues are very flexable and fun to play, I find, as well. Starting with one level of rogue (so that you get the massive skills set at level one) then going mage for 6 or 7 levels, one more rogue and then running mage rest of the way is great fun. I find anyway.
    If you make sure to max out your umd, search and disable (lock picking isn't as important as you can always retry if you fail) you can go anywhere and be helpful in any quest. It's a great way to learn the spells (as you can freely change them out) and which are useful in what situations.

    Most importantly, have fun. That is why you're here.

    Oh yeah, welcome to the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  16. #36

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    To make things easier, being totally new you might want to stick with cleric over fvs. You would need to either purchase fvs or get it for free with favor and favor might take you more time than you want.

    Clerics are sought after and a good choice.

    Just to add that tidbit again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  17. #37
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I don't recall ever, in years, of any group wanting to sit at the entrance and wait for most of those. Generally they want to wait for a healer or sometimes crowd control for hard content.

    I have received blind invites for someone looking for help with traps on a rogue but never a blind invite on a monk. I got them all the time on a cleric, favored soul, bard, and wizard. Seriously, all the time until I went anon, and when I drop anon to join a pug or send a tell I sometimes get blind invites on those classes before I remember to go anon again. Even the wizard doesn't get them like the bard, cleric, or fvs.

    One the bard, cleric, or fvs I can be anonymous and players whom I walk by in Stormreach will still send me tells. I'm surprised they don't do that on my druid, tbh. Druid healing is pretty decent and they have some handy spells.

    Healing is pretty much a universal need (healers are not but since they are a great source of healing... ). Everything else tends to be used based on situation and damage is easy to find.

    I disagree with your assessment.
    Hey it was asked what the most wanted were. Not what random invites would get you. And for most wanted a monk that's able to lock down a target himself is high priority over the nub sauce barb, or fighter that can't even preform tactics reliably. Their are some yes, but monk is usually more of a sure thing because it's so blatenly easy to jack up fist and the rest of the attacks.

    Clr and favored would be considered higher (unless they are again some moron that used a stone and has no idea what a class pre is. Seen enough of those) however unless your going EE, it really isn't called for to wait for one. Unless the whole grp just failed at building any self survival in. (See why monks are usually a sure thing)

    However for en or eh it's gonna be really anything. Though I still say any mage will be chosen over melee or specialist. And for EE you need the lockdowns. Being full on retard ape doesn't cut it. Which is why the various mages come to shine or specialized melee.

    Though then you get into further lookings. For other melee you can't just be that, going for a 2 splash shows (Or should show rather) that you knew enough to work in umd, evasion and thus knew that things got real with exploding balls of fire and worked on your saves. Theirs any number of ways to disern who's worth bringing among the others.

    However as I said, en eh, as long as your able to take care of urself it's really not much of a scrutiny. grab a hire, and start in. Then take invites along the way.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  18. #38
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    There are two considerations for crafting a party:
    1) Fun
    Any quest may be played for fun with or without any class requirements. This is the first rule: accept people.
    2) Viability
    You will need to become more serious and thought provoking. This is the first rule: communicate with people who are applying to your party.
    Good luck.

  19. #39
    Community Member Syrrah's Avatar
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    You can only become a good divine if you have played a melee before. My first toon was a divine and I thought I was good, but I became much better after capping a rogue. Looking back now, I really, really sucked back then as a cleric.

    And you can only become a good melee after playing a divine.

    However: a bad divine is worthless in a group, while a bad melee at least holds some value. You cannot really fail at being a fighter or a barbarian, your damage will be subpar and you take more damage than you should, but in the end you stil get the job done. A bad cleric does not watch red bars, forgets to turn on his aura, does not have the DCs to do any real casting etc. A hireling then functions better.

    Furthermore playing a "good" divine is expensive, not to be underestimated for a first toon. Buying 100 Heal, scrolls 50 raise scrolls and a bunch of wands drains your money pretty quick. My first toon was broke on several occasions.

    For a first toon I suggest an Articifer: they are easy to make and play AND (big bonus) you don't have to bother about getting DR breakers. Oops, forgot a silver weapon for that vampire? Make it yourself. Cold iron, good weapons, a particular element, ... no problem for you. This is huge for someone that does not know the quests very well.

    Arti's deal decent damage, have means to tackle both single target and groups of monsters, have CC options and a dog that can hold agro if you take Augmented Summoning and the right enhancements.

    Besides I have yet to find a group that will turn down an Articifer.

  20. #40
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    A cleric should not be measured by how well they watch your hp as a rule. A primary healer should be, maybe, but even then you have to do your part to be sure they have enough time to react by mitigating what damage you can.

    Assuming any given cleric or FvS is there to primarily heal you might be a bad assumption and you and they are probably be better off with you using a hireling.

    (cleric is a class and a primary healer is a situational role)

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