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  1. #21
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    I get that DPS builds don't incorporate mass tactics feats, but iSunder is one feat. One feat which increases the party damage to bosses by quite a bit.

    Someone mentioned that forum builds have tactics. That's fine, I can tell you for a certainty that I have seen nothing used against bosses for months now. I have a pretty good view of it so I would know if Sunder or anything was used.

    DC bonuses. Really? You pick up any item in the game and it has a +10 to something. I don't mean weapons either. You have rings, belts, all sorts of options. Oh, and EDs. You're in LD? +1928 to DCs.

    My question could be asked another way, why are raiders so single minded in looking for +1 more damage that they ignore feats which could add, potentially, 10% more damage to ~8 people? Assuming everyone does roughly your damage, that's +80% damage vs a few points.

    V

  2. #22
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    I still see tactics used widely in EE and heroic XP runs. But the addition of Overwhelming Critical and the fact Cleave is now good makes it hard to fit tactics feats in builds. Hell my pure Fighter Stalwart doesn't have all the feats they want with only one Toughness (and one active Barb PL, count that as two toughnesses if you want).

    Good players build melees with significant numbers of Fighter levels and so they can still have some tactics in their builds. Bad players run EN/EH exclusively and find tactics overkill there as mobs don't live long enough or hit hard enough to justify stunning them.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Sunarch_Kunari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruener View Post
    50% increase in damage to helpless mobs is better dps than no increase at all. maybe its that "new" math those kids are learning.
    I would do some studying on this and do math if I wasn't so lazy. But:
    Stunning blow has a cooldown of 15 seconds and lasts for 6 seconds, so the helpless bonus is only in effect for 6 out of the 15 seconds. And when you have to remove a DPS feat for a tactical feat, it no longer becomes worth it because you lose DPS against bosses and people who can't be stunned. Plus, you have to focus on getting your DPS high, which means you'll have to switch out DPS gear for tactical gear.
    Let use an example (and this may be a bad one because I'm not good at gearing) on someone at level 25 who is wearing Knost's Belt and an Encrusted Ring with some kind of burst slotted into it. Along with the Encrusted Ring, he is wearing a t3 Epic Ring of the Stalker. His ToD set is giving him +2 damage and his ring is giving him +5 damage. Lets assume he's wearing Tharne's goggles also, giving him a total of +15 damage on sneak attacks. Lets say he has a weapon that makes him do 3d6 points of damage (3-18) with a 40 strength which gives him another +15 points of damage. He does 3d6+30 points of damage. (33-48) Stunned creatures take 50% more damage, so to a stunned enemy, he will do 49-72 points of damage. For 6 seconds. Now in a solo quest, he will have to supply his own stuns. This means he'll either have to equip a stunning weapon to make sure the stun applies, or a ring of stunning, which mean's he'll either lose out on a +2 damage or +5 sneak attack damage. His DPS will get reduced to 3d6+28 or 3d6+25 which is 31-46 or 28-43 damage, respectfully. Equipping a +10 stunning seal of Dun'Robar, assuming he has no other modifiers, gives him a stun DC of 36. Let's throw in an extra 2 just to be generous because I have no idea where other modifiers would come from. 38. From experience, I can guess that drow have a save of around 40-55. He would have to have a lucky roll to get the higher saves and fighters. If he swapped out his ToD ring for the seal, then his DPS would be 46-69. For 6 seconds with 9 seconds of cooldown. His DPS will only significantly improve every 15 seconds, and only if he is lucky. (with the caster drow, meh, they have low saves, but there is always a 5% of them rolling a 20)

    I'm going to stop there because it's 3 in the morning and I could be wrong and I don't want to shove my foot any farther down my throat. But from how I see it, just a guess, the stunner loses out on DPS vs people immune to stun and high saves.

    EDIT: As sirgog pointed out, it's hard to shove tactical feats in there with all the cool feats coming out. I'm not even including this person switching out a feat for stunning blow.
    ANOTHER EDIT: "maybe its that 'new' math those kids are learning."
    I'm curious, where is the math you did?
    YET ANOTHER EDIT: I'm not fighting against stunner builds, my monk has a good stun DC and a great DPS.
    Last edited by Sunarch_Kunari; 02-08-2013 at 07:02 AM.
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  4. #24
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    V, there's no way for me to put tactic feats on my 12/8 Mnk/Ftr.

    I have only 5 Toughness feats so there's really no way to incorporate some tactics in there. You wouldn't want me to be a squishy gimp, now would you?

    On a serious note, my WIS is dumped and on EE it's useless to have stunning fist. Trip, however, works quite nicely
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  5. #25
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Because DDO is a game of little bonuses. You have to search for many advantages. Power Attack and moar damage is recognized easily. Improved Sunder is not that obvious.

    In any way I would never ignore it, except I was playing a past live melee build. And Stunning Blow on high STR melees seems like a mandatory thing, too.
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  6. #26
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    I'm more annoyed when people go full stupid on DPS and ignore defense, other than fort and HP. A lot of people don't even try to pump other defenses, and don't even have swap-in items to do so.

    They can't handle short-manning quests because of this. They're too used to balanced parties where divines are hjealing everyone constantly.

  7. #27
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    I'm more annoyed when people go full stupid on DPS and ignore defense, other than fort and HP. A lot of people don't even try to pump other defenses, and don't even have swap-in items to do so.

    They can't handle short-manning quests because of this. They're too used to balanced parties where divines are hjealing everyone constantly.
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  8. #28
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    For me, it's the need to slot a stunning item that makes it tough. On my barb for example, the only current option is to use a weapon, which needs to be blunt. Since i don't have ic/blunt even if the stun lands i have to switch back to a real weapon which takes a couple of seconds out of the 6. Not to mention that even with the stunning bonus i find it is unreliable for me.

  9. #29
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    For me, it's the need to slot a stunning item that makes it tough. On my barb for example, the only current option is to use a weapon, which needs to be blunt.
    Nope. There are Drow weapons and Alchemical weapons (Tier 1 Air) which provide a Stunning +10 bonus, on any kind of weapon.

    Edit: See below for non-weapon options to increase your Stunning DC.
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  10. #30
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    For me, it's the need to slot a stunning item that makes it tough.
    You did say for your build, but in general http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_House_Dun%27Robar + http://ddowiki.com/page/Spare_Hand = +15 bonus without a weapon.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masadique View Post
    Why do no DPS builds incorporate Stunning Blow, iSunder, etc. anymore? I know monks still do, but what about everyone else? Personally I had to drop Stunning Fist, but I've also dumped Wisdom and stunning doesn't help against bosses.

    What are your reasons for dropping tactics feats? Paladins are exempt because they have no feats anyway.

    V
    I still use stunning fist more now then ever and my fighter trips anything like a champ. Just because it's not always possible on Epic Elite doesn't mean that it's not useful. It's absolutely the best way of keeping caster types from doing what they do.

    Oh, my Arti love the anti magic wiz destiny thing - perfect in turning caster critters into knife chuckers.

  12. #32
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Nope. There are Drow weapons and Alchemical weapons (Tier 1 Air) which provide a Stunning +10 bonus, on any kind of weapon.

    Edit: See below for non-weapon options to increase your Stunning DC.
    I don't own the pack that alchemicals come from, and i haven't encountered any drow weapons yet. I was speaking of later heroic levels also, since i took the feat at 18.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    The point. You are missing it.

    This thread was on taking tactical feats, not using certain tactics. Of course, using these feats or not, is a tactic itself, but I don't think that the OP was intending this kind of meta discussion.
    I could offer a long and laborious defense of my misreading of the OP's intention....

    However, I'll just admit that you're right and slink sullenly away.....
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  14. #34
    The Hatchery Tevain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthhento View Post
    V, there's no way for me to put tactic feats on my 12/8 Mnk/Ftr.

    I have only 5 Toughness feats so there's really no way to incorporate some tactics in there. You wouldn't want me to be a squishy gimp, now would you?

    On a serious note, my WIS is dumped and on EE it's useless to have stunning fist. Trip, however, works quite nicely
    We all know you can't build a decent Monk no need to reiterate it here :P

    Qera has a base Wis of 14 and I reach a Stun Fist of 59, Stun Blow is 3 or 4 behind, both work reliably enough in ee
    Oh and I also have Improved Sunder, and still enough spare feats that i took Toughness 4 times.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    You did say for your build, but in general http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_House_Dun%27Robar + http://ddowiki.com/page/Spare_Hand = +15 bonus without a weapon.
    This, if you say you can't fit in some stunning bonus, you're wrong. You may have to give up a little bit of DPS, but who cares? Someone mentioned short manning quests. I can't count the number of times I've gone into eH or eE content sans a real healer, only to watch people flounder because they can't cope without constant healing. A stunned monster usually dies before it does any damage. If you move carefully, you can mitigate most damage from a quest. The other option is to be Kilnky and just kill everything/yourself in a very quick fashion.

    Also, this is not a thread just talking about barbs, or just talking about stunning blow. iSunder and the other combat feats have a lot of merit in my opinion. Running with some first life undergeared melee? I bet softening up the bosses AC would be a nice treat for them. It would also add over all party DPS because more people are hitting more often. Side note, I'm pretty sure that lowering their AC is more efficient than upping your attack bonus now. The -10% fort and 15 fortitude saves is an awesome perk as well.

    V

  16. #36
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    My stunning fist is 57, and it can hit EE monsters - not always but hit
    once i get combat mastery then it will be 62 better

    regarding improved sunder i tried at the beginning to put it in my build but didn't see a lot of help from it
    switched to vorpal strikes from it

  17. #37

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    I switched out my tactics Fighter (before I Tred).

    In fact, I played around with it a great deal to find what I liked in the new end game content.

    Improved trip was removed first even though, with a dun'robar ring, it was easy to land because it seems to just save me from getting swung at a couple of times by some trash. Slow and not worth a feat.

    Stunning blow was removed because I just hate switching to a Drow weapon to stun and then back to primary weapon for kill. If I ever find a +10 stun ring I will happily get this back.

    Improved Sunder was removed and I had regretted it. I was thinking that I could free up two feats because I only took CI to open up tactical feats. In retrospect, Improved Sunder just makes boss fights go faster and you can pretty much bet no one else will be using it.

    When I get back to 20 I plan on finding a +10 stun ring and having SB and IS.

    I'm still not sold on IT.
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  18. #38
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevain View Post
    We all know you can't build a decent Monk no need to reiterate it here :P

    Qera has a base Wis of 14 and I reach a Stun Fist of 59, Stun Blow is 3 or 4 behind, both work reliably enough in ee
    Oh and I also have Improved Sunder, and still enough spare feats that i took Toughness 4 times.
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  19. #39
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    It's "relatively" easy to get 50+ strength, 10 stun on Drow weapon, Mornh, Debilitation or old Scintillating weapon, Dun Robar, Gorristro Hide and 5 mastery from Dun Robar, even lvl 20 Bear cloak or Spare Hand.

    You devote some gear for it, so imho stun blow could use 10 s cooldown.
    50-80 percent more+ sneak damage for 6 seconds, not taking damage by mob, well worth the feat.

    Improved trip works on almost everything on hard can trip 5 mobs indefinitely if you want to, with 10 vertigo on gear it works on casters on elite. It's nice way of saying "FU, I am not taking another meteor or Cyclone blast to the face !" to that caster.

    Improved sunder, - 10 fortification, - 15 fort saves ( helpful for casters, rogues, monk strikes, especially touch of despair for even more - 25 fortification ). Even useful for trash, -3 fort might make a difference for landing that finger so caster doesn't have to energy drain.

    I could see not getting it on barbarian, rogue, but on fighter ? What feats you get ? 10 x toughness ?
    It's also boring, autorun and left click only ?

    Not going to comment on monk without good Stunning fist. From my favourite writeup:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthios888 View Post
    On the other end of the spectrum is the strength-based monk that fits in every DPS item. These are evasion barbarians with half the HP. Great offense -- really the top of the pack -- but this can be a very difficult character to play. For my personal purposes, it's not quite worth being a mana sponge.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Good players build melees with significant numbers of Fighter levels and so they can still have some tactics in their builds. Bad players run EN/EH exclusively and find tactics overkill there as mobs don't live long enough or hit hard enough to justify stunning them.
    I have a bit different point of view at what good and bad players do.

    Good players build melees simply to be the most efficient. They take tactical feats if the amount of feats in their build allows them to. If they cant fit Stunning Blow/Fist in their build, they will compensate it with numerous destiny abilities that provide CC (Drifting Lotus, Lay Waste, Overwhelming Force etc.). But thats mostly for solo play, because in a group of good players mobs really do not live long enough to justify stunning them, even on EE.
    On the other hand, I dont really see a reason why melee would have a shortage of feats (maybe except pure Barbs/Rogues/Pallys but those are pretty rare nowdays).

    Bad players usually have no idea what they are doing anyway. They are just blindly following some crazy, usually outdated guide or try to make their own builds based on how it would work in P&P. Its usually pretty hard to convince them that the build they chose is bad and make them do some changes without angering them.

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