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  1. #41
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    My shiradi sorc puts out around 700-1000 boss DPS plinking away with MM/FMs or ~2k-3k with joy going full retard.
    I'm a bit curious how you measured your DPS
    Just one of the many 120-150k HP EE Rednames?
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  2. #42
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    I'm a bit curious how you measured your DPS
    Just one of the many 120-150k HP EE Rednames?
    CR30 sunset ritual human rednamed boss, spawns after 2:30 into the quest. There is a shrine inside and it is easy to reset. I have human mastery, he has ~65-70k hp. Without joy takes a bit over a minute. With joy takes about 25-30 seconds. I am sure these times can be improved...didn't really do more than a couple trials and had to protect the dragon knight idiots as well. I was just wondering about how much my damage output was.

  3. #43
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Did you use maximised spells or just unmeta'd?
    In Boss fight burst DPS situations I usually cycle through my maximise clickies (8 x 20 seconds) and throw maximised MM/FM/Meteor Swarm/Dots. The difference in DPS is quite a lot to be honest, while spell cost is the same.

    I might try it out today, since I heavily changed my equipment yesterday and I'm a bit curious if it's better or worse DPS wise (though its definatly better defensively).
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  4. #44
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Did you use maximised spells or just unmeta'd?
    In Boss fight burst DPS situations I usually cycle through my maximise clickies (8 x 20 seconds) and throw maximised MM/FM/Meteor Swarm/Dots. The difference in DPS is quite a lot to be honest, while spell cost is the same.

    I might try it out today, since I heavily changed my equipment yesterday and I'm a bit curious if it's better or worse DPS wise (though its definatly better defensively).
    Unmetaed MM/FMs, max/emp/quicked DOTs. Think meteors were metaed, too.

  5. #45
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Nope, but atm it's quite boring since there is only good destiny for a caster. A melee has incentives to choose either LD or Fury (or GMOF with the correct class). A caster can only choose Shiradi atm. Something has to change somehow to make other destinies viable for casters as well.
    Shiradi is one of the three good ED for caster the other being magister and draconic incarnation.
    Ex: out of 10 people that have shiradi unlock on my server, only 1 use it. The rest using di and magister.
    And they can choose other ED as well, not ONLY shiradi. Also, my monk outkill a shiradi sorc in group, I guess we nerf her now? Lol

  6. #46
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Do not ruin someone else fun just because of one own jealousy or ambition (aka nerf shiradi) it will make more people leaving this game.
    Many already leave because turbine like to nerf stuff due to the mass complaining (and the mass end up using them anyway). So sometimes it's not an ability that is overpowered, it's the human mind illusion that made it seem overpowered when there is no such thing as "overpowered" And for the last time, this is NOT a pvp game. So if people using it never in your group, why would you want to nerf it anyway? The answer is simple, ambition and jealousy.

    P.S. I'm suprise the people that complain about shiradi doesn't make the creator of dnd nerf wild mages before they die.

    R.I.P. Gary

  7. #47
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Many already leave because turbine like to nerf stuff due to the mass complaining (and the mass end up using them anyway).
    People most definitely leave (at least for an extended time) the game due to nerfing.

    The error would be in thinking that they don't leave, precisely similarly, because of overpowered mechanics. One of the many reasons when you design a game, you really should get it right the first time. But that brings us to...

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Should they all be nerfed because someone with a less effective character is jealous?
    No, they need to be nerfed because they make the game look stupid. Note that the person utilizing the OP ability sees it too, they just choose to exploit for the time being and will generally wind up pushing themselves away from the game.

    DDO is extremely low-pop for a free-to-play game. My kids play other free-to-play MMOs and the difference is HUGE. The exploitation needs to stop, regardless of the negative impact it will have in the short term. If you are actually doing 700 damage per second with unmeta'd magic missile, then that needs fixed - because the magic missiles themselves are doing less than 100.

    Shiradi on my ranger seems fine to me, except perhaps Healing Spring may be a little too good. I have yet to see a Shiradi sorceror or wizard that amounted to anything in the content I run.
    Last edited by Raithe; 03-01-2013 at 08:07 AM.

  8. #48
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post


    No, they need to be nerfed because they make the game look stupid. Note that the person utilizing the OP ability sees it too, they just choose to exploit for the time being and will generally wind up pushing themselves away from the game.

    DDO is extremely low-pop for a free-to-play game. My kids play other free-to-play MMOs and the difference is HUGE. The exploitation needs to stop, regardless of the negative impact it will have in the short term. If you are actually doing 700 damage per second with unmeta'd magic missile, then that needs fixed - because the magic missiles themselves are doing less than 100.

    Shiradi on my ranger seems fine to me, except perhaps Healing Spring may be a little too good. I have yet to see a Shiradi sorceror or wizard that amounted to anything in the content I run.

    Says the guy who thinks there is no difference in difficulty between EH and EE.

    I really can't take anything you write seriously when it comes to game difficulty. I read your posts all the way through, every time, and I try to keep the bias from the previous absurd post I read out of my mind. The vast majority of the times I've read your posts I just don't understand where you are coming from. You have some extremely weird and unrealistic views on the subject. Sometimes you make some good points, and I am sure you are a nice person (I am too ), but most of the time I just don't agree with your viewpoint. I'm almost convinced you don't actually play this game sometimes and just come on here to stir things up. You are certainly playing a different game than I am.

    (And BTW, 700-1000 with ice storm, both lvl5 DOTs, MMs and FMs unmetaed, and there might have been a cloudkill involved. Considering AAs can burst at near 6-8x that, I don't consider ~700-1k dps amazing or even great. It's good to OK, and fairly sustainable.)

  9. #49
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    My shiradi sorc puts out around 700-1000 boss DPS plinking away with MM/FMs or ~2k-3k with joy going full retard.

    I am not specced for max DPS (energy burst over stormrage, not metaing many spells, shiradi by nature is better damage over time vs burst) so other shiradis are possibly higher. Also the concept of DPS is sort of hard to judge, particularly with the random procs. 1 second you could get some high procs and do 5k or 10k dps, or no procs and do 50dps. Damage per minute or per 20s is better.

    Nowhere near the burst dps of manyshot+adreneline, or even just a typical well geared/well built melee.

    It is NOT the DPS of shiradi sorcs that is the attraction. It is the solid dps with survivability, versitility, crowd control, self healing, high saves potential, lack of past lives needed and ease of gearing makes it a popular choice.

    I think the only changes necessary are to make DC casting viable again. Geared archers at the moment are great, geared melee are great as well, balance is there, certainly more than pre EDs.

    A lot of people are screaming for shiradi to be nerfed but the fact is that it is not the strongest destiny for archers-not even close. And, draconic is still certainly viable for sorcs as well.

    Plenty of class/ED combinations are very, very powerful.

    Any geared melee blitzing is shockingly good.
    Anything geared and manyshotting in fury is shockingly good.
    A well played geared monk in GMoF is amazing as well.
    The amount of cheap healing a twisted out cleric in exalted is amazing as well.
    The damage mitigation of a 1500hp+ stalwart or defender in sentinal is insane.

    Should they all be nerfed because someone with a less effective character is jealous?
    Here is what I would do. I would make shiradi a little bit more dps for bow ranged characters and less dps for spellcasters and maybe make it a little bit more funky in the sense of what the destiny does so it will be cool for wild mages when that comes out. I would significantly upgrade magister tier 5 to make that more effective and appealing and I would alter some of the draconic incarnation providing a little better cc/dps there, but not as big an upgrade as the magister destiny would get. On ee shiradi is the top choice for spellcasters and only in fairly particular circumstances is draconic incarnation competitive really. From a metagaming standpoint force/elements for a sorc/wizard in shiradi is the way to go on ee for the vast majority of situations and times.
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  10. #50
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    Lol at the entire OP. This ED is awesome for any one using a bow or repeater not to mention a nice choice for casters.

    My repeater rogue had alot of fun in it while lvling it up. I also say healing spring is plenty enough as is, to many uses would make it way OP, 3 per rest is just right and takes enough points to be fair. Nor is it easily abused via twists thankfully or it would make others like fast healing etc worthless as tier 1 twists self healing options.

    Honestly i think outside of its so called epic moment it is one of the most spot on ED in that it blends well with several classes, and has tools that synergize well with enough to be used for out of the box builds.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Here is what I would do. I would make shiradi a little bit more dps for bow ranged characters and less dps for spellcasters and maybe make it a little bit more funky in the sense of what the destiny does so it will be cool for wild mages when that comes out.
    The DPS on shiradi is already pretty lackluster for casters, how could you possibly want it nerfed? Please don't pull a Shade and say the math doesn't make sense, that it just IS awesome, despite getting 1/3 the kills of a draconic and spending 5x the SP to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I would significantly upgrade magister tier 5 to make that more effective and appealing
    I think there are fundamental problems with the game currently and "fixing" destinies is just dealing with a few of the symptoms. Why, for instance, even bother with taking magister abilities on a PM to boost your premier spell, wail of the banshee, when you can simply take shadowdancer's Consume for a higher DC that works on undead, ignores spell resistance and requires no +necro items or feats?

    A first lifer with consume and no necro ability or spell penetration will out instakill a completionist wizard with maxed spell pen past lives, necro focus, prestiege bonuses and all that in EE.

    Likewise evocation focus on sorcs? Total waste, draconic and shiradi don't even care.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    and I would alter some of the draconic incarnation providing a little better cc/dps there
    Many cooldown times are ludicrous, the paralyzing shout from draconic being one of them. But again, adding CC to destinies means... enchantment focus feats become pointless, and spell penetration feats become pointless etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    , but not as big an upgrade as the magister destiny would get. On ee shiradi is the top choice for spellcasters and only in fairly particular circumstances is draconic incarnation competitive really. From a metagaming standpoint force/elements for a sorc/wizard in shiradi is the way to go on ee for the vast majority of situations and times.
    The EE gianthold mobs are pretty low on HP. Draconic has been tearing things up pretty well actually. Shiradi only really wins with metas off for sustained DPS, but that really hasn't been required for the most part.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The reason people complain about the DPS of hybrid abilities is because most of the stuff hybrid gets for sacrificing DPS the specialists can have too via clickies or twists.

    Shiradi is no different. It is a hybrid destiny, which can spam alot of effects, where the specialist destinies basically pile on moar DPS.

    While it can be a decent destiny for contributing to group CC while adding *some* damage, for solo or shortman, even archers are better off in LD or fury nowdays if they are looking for faster completions.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    The DPS on shiradi is already pretty lackluster for casters, how could you possibly want it nerfed? Please don't pull a Shade and say the math doesn't make sense, that it just IS awesome, despite getting 1/3 the kills of a draconic and spending 5x the SP to do it.



    I think there are fundamental problems with the game currently and "fixing" destinies is just dealing with a few of the symptoms. Why, for instance, even bother with taking magister abilities on a PM to boost your premier spell, wail of the banshee, when you can simply take shadowdancer's Consume for a higher DC that works on undead, ignores spell resistance and requires no +necro items or feats?

    A first lifer with consume and no necro ability or spell penetration will out instakill a completionist wizard with maxed spell pen past lives, necro focus, prestiege bonuses and all that in EE.

    Likewise evocation focus on sorcs? Total waste, draconic and shiradi don't even care.



    Many cooldown times are ludicrous, the paralyzing shout from draconic being one of them. But again, adding CC to destinies means... enchantment focus feats become pointless, and spell penetration feats become pointless etc.



    The EE gianthold mobs are pretty low on HP. Draconic has been tearing things up pretty well actually. Shiradi only really wins with metas off for sustained DPS, but that really hasn't been required for the most part.
    I don't think that consume making you an Insta-death king is a valid comparison or statement.
    AFAIK ShadowDancer's consume and executioner's strike are very buggy if working at all (especially for Arti's using repeaters)...

    That and Consume has a 2 min cooldown compared to Implosion & Wail at 1m so it would be hard to out insta-death them. That and Wizards aren't one trick wonders and have other options (FoD, etc) and could be running with Consume themselves if it was so overpowered...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 03-01-2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason: clarify

  14. #54
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Says the guy who thinks there is no difference in difficulty between EH and EE.
    Oh, there is a major difference, and I never said anything to the contrary. It isn't in difficulty, however. It's in stupidity. I'll give you a quick example. I wanted to verify that evocation DCs were actually near 60 in epic elite (that is completely moronic), so I took my bard in EE Gianthold Tor and had all 8 of the initial giants fascinated in seconds. I then did my testing (and DCs, are, in fact 60 or possibly slightly higher - I succeeded on a roll of 17+47 = 64).

    I could have solo'd all the way to the final boss and maybe beyond.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    You have some extremely weird and unrealistic views on the subject.
    Let me explain the difference between you and me. You just see your own little microcosm, and its a metagaming one. Metagamers are self-delusional to begin with, so they aren't likely to see the reality of the situation even if it bonked them on the nose. Sticking to your own type, you clearly have a severely skewed view of the game and the way it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Considering AAs can burst at near 6-8x that...
    How much AAs can burst at should be entirely dependent on how many mobs they have lined up, and the number of mobs should be a direct multiplier of their DPS. You quoting meaningless numbers (without the pertinent additional facts) just sounds like a bunch of metagaming egotism going on. But I'm sure your a nice person .

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    I don't consider ~700-1k dps amazing or even great. It's good to OK, and fairly sustainable.)
    It's not tough math. If EE mobs have roughly 10k hit points, then doing 700-1k dps will kill one every 10 to 14 seconds, solo. I think EE mobs are supposed to have a little more longevity than that. Of course certain abilities will have higher burst DPS. You claiming that an entirely sustainable ability has that high of DPS is most certainly alarming.
    Last edited by Raithe; 03-01-2013 at 10:55 AM.

  15. #55
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    The DPS on shiradi is already pretty lackluster for casters, how could you possibly want it nerfed? Please don't pull a Shade and say the math doesn't make sense, that it just IS awesome, despite getting 1/3 the kills of a draconic and spending 5x the SP to do it.
    I do not agree with your assessment that dps is lackluster in Shiradi I actually think it is quite good - not saying it is the best just pretty solid. I think that shiradi can better balanced if spellcasters do not do very good damage in it. Your statement that they get 1/3 of the kills of draconic is just plain wrong especially when you look at it things from a spell casting efficiency standpoint but even if a draconic and a shiradi had unlimited mana it is wrong.

    I think there are fundamental problems with the game currently and "fixing" destinies is just dealing with a few of the symptoms. Why, for instance, even bother with taking magister abilities on a PM to boost your premier spell, wail of the banshee, when you can simply take shadowdancer's Consume for a higher DC that works on undead, ignores spell resistance and requires no +necro items or feats?

    A first lifer with consume and no necro ability or spell penetration will out instakill a completionist wizard with maxed spell pen past lives, necro focus, prestiege bonuses and all that in EE.
    Yeah EIN and consume are lousy from a game play standpoint. My cleric has all the past lives, gear, and etc. and cant land squat with implosion currently in EE GH. Upgrading magister some is a step in the correct direction in my opinion. I actually like concept of consume and to a lesser extent ein from a non spellcaster standpoint, but it is murky how this works for sure and they need to fix things.

    Likewise evocation focus on sorcs? Total waste, draconic and shiradi don't even care.



    Many cooldown times are ludicrous, the paralyzing shout from draconic being one of them. But again, adding CC to destinies means... enchantment focus feats become pointless, and spell penetration feats become pointless etc.

    The EE gianthold mobs are pretty low on HP. Draconic has been tearing things up pretty well actually. Shiradi only really wins with metas off for sustained DPS, but that really hasn't been required for the most part.
    Just dont really agree with alot of your analysis. Shiradi just seems more efficient and has the cc benefits.
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  16. #56
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    This has turn from a dps review thread into a complaining/whinny/please-nerf-it thread.

    If this nerfing trend keep continue, ddo will be dead by the time TESO (the elder scroll online) come out.

  17. #57
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    DPS on shiradis is totally fine as it is right now.
    It just adds drastically up by the more mobs you have in a fight.
    Against single target its solid but nothing crazy at all.
    The DPS is just a bit off when you get that Joy of the Queen effect from tea with the queen.
    But this happens way to less to really matter on that build (and having that total craziness going on at some times is just funny, but it's rare).

    The only thing that feels a bit OP is the nerve venom.
    They could easily handle this by adding a save to it or make more mobs immune against it (like giants in Tor).

    Other than that my bread and butter CC on my shiradi is Solid Fog+Ice Storm. That combination has pretty much nothing to do with shiradi and has been around forever.
    It just fits in well since most shiradis kinda dump their DCs and it doesnt require spellpen or DCs.
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  18. #58
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I could have solo'd all the way to the final boss and maybe beyond.
    I went into elite ToD and killed the first two devils with my barb. I can totally solo it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    How much AAs can burst at should be entirely dependent on how many mobs they have lined up, and the number of mobs should be a direct multiplier of their DPS. You quoting meaningless numbers (without the pertinent additional facts) just sounds like a bunch of metagaming egotism going on. But I'm sure your a nice person .
    EE sobrien has around 64k hit points. This is an AA taking it down in around 9 seconds.. That's 7k single target damage per second, (number of lined mobs notwithstanding, if that were included, depending on the situation you could have triple that when bursting), which fits quite well with MrMechman's analysis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It's not tough math. If EE mobs have roughly 10k hit points, then doing 700-1k dps will kill one every 10 to 14 seconds, solo. I think EE mobs are supposed to have a little more longevity than that. Of course certain abilities will have higher burst DPS. You claiming that an entirely sustainable ability has that high of DPS is most certainly alarming.
    And yet you say you prefer to play EH, where mobs usually have a longevity of 2 seconds or less. Someone who doesn't play on EE should have no say on whether mob HP is appropriate or not.
    Last edited by DarkForte; 03-01-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Oh, there is a major difference, and I never said anything to the contrary. It isn't in difficulty, however. It's in stupidity. I'll give you a quick example. I wanted to verify that evocation DCs were actually near 60 in epic elite (that is completely moronic), so I took my bard in EE Gianthold Tor and had all 8 of the initial giants fascinated in seconds. I then did my testing (and DCs, are, in fact 60 or possibly slightly higher - I succeeded on a roll of 17+47 = 64).
    So to verify that EVOCATION DC (usually a reflex save, sometimes a fort save) was in the 60s you took a bard in there and fascinated them all (a will save) and you found out that their will save is 64....which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with evocation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Let me explain the difference between you and me. You just see your own little microcosm, and its a metagaming one. Metagamers are self-delusional to begin with, so they aren't likely to see the reality of the situation even if it bonked them on the nose. Sticking to your own type, you clearly have a severely skewed view of the game and the way it works.
    The difference is that the microcosm many here are talking about is THE ACTUAL GAME. One of them actually posted a video to outline capabilities. Youre over here trying to show how evocation works by testing for a completely different save than 99% of all evocation spells target.

    If youre trying to convince other readers that your information is more relevant than theirs because they are somehow stuck in their own self delusional microcosm, its not working.

    Everyone who is playing a quest in DDO for their second + time is a metagamer. They are pretty much the entire customer base. Cant be avoided, unless we can just turn our memories off so we dont remember anything at all about the game experience the entire time we play, so its new each and every time.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-01-2013 at 12:37 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #60
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Someone who doesn't play on EE should have no say on whether mob HP is appropriate or not.
    About 8 things, but I'll keep it at 3:
    1) I play this game, I have a say on the forums (even if I didn't play the game). You DON'T have any say about that.
    2) I have played Epic Elite, numerous times. It sucks, total grindfest. The metagaming influence is so obvious I think I can smell it.
    3) I never made a direct inference in this thread that EE mob hit points are out-of-whack, but they are. Even epic hard mobs are not correctly balanced. Yes, I know an eSoS on a Master's Blitz puts all EH mobs to shame, but when some other melee is whittling them down at a rate slightly slower than a snail's pace, the retarded view that only max DPS needs to be considered falls flat on its face.

    I'll be the first to admit that max DPS (MB, AA, or Sorc) needs a significant adjustment downwards.

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