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  1. #121
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    @Leslie West (Aandre?),

    A big concern of mine which prompted my post here is that, from what I've seen, the classes in NWO look extremely limited. I'm pretty stoked about the implications of the Foundry (possibly unlimited # of dungeons!). If the characters are as limited as they seem, that may not matter to me so much. Perhaps it would still be fun, but I'll see when it's released (yes, I still plan on being there on day 1).

    I read somewhere on the NWO forums that a "Great Weapon Fighter" cannot swap out to a sword and shield. This just sounds lame. Also, there is a possibility of a Ranger being released.

    What I'd like to know is: would a Ranger be able to swap to handheld weapons or are they thinking to make it strictly a "you can only use a bow" sort of thing?

    The question I have: are they going to open things up so people can switch weapons, spells, choose powers, etc.? Currently, everything I've seen points toward you "unlock" a couple things at level X or whatever, but you don't really get to choose anything beyond your original class. That strikes me as rather bland.

    I'm not talking about switching from a great axe to a great sword on a "Great Weapon Fighter". I'm talking about whipping out your bow when you feel the need to range. I'm hoping the best for this game. I've been waiting a long time for the next (?better - unkown yet?) Neverwinter, but so far this reeks of "dumbing down" in a big way.

    I also hope DDO doesn't "dumb down" with the enhancement overhaul as you're suggesting they probably will, but that's another story.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    @Leslie West (Aandre?),
    Good catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    A big concern of mine which prompted my post here is that, from what I've seen, the classes in NWO look extremely limited. I'm pretty stoked about the implications of the Foundry (possibly unlimited # of dungeons!). If the characters are as limited as they seem, that may not matter to me so much. Perhaps it would still be fun, but I'll see when it's released (yes, I still plan on being there on day 1).
    Classes are definitely limited now. That's to be expected on "day 1" of closed beta. They are expecting a refreshingly long beta cycle that actually includes testing, so new classes are open fodder for review at later dates. Either way, they'll be adding classes to at least compare with the number of classes in DDO in time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    I read somewhere on the NWO forums that a "Great Weapon Fighter" cannot swap out to a sword and shield. This just sounds lame. Also, there is a possibility of a Ranger being released.

    What I'd like to know is: would a Ranger be able to swap to handheld weapons or are they thinking to make it strictly a "you can only use a bow" sort of thing?

    The question I have: are they going to open things up so people can switch weapons, spells, choose powers, etc.? Currently, everything I've seen points toward you "unlock" a couple things at level X or whatever, but you don't really get to choose anything beyond your original class. That strikes me as rather bland.
    The classes are tuned to feel very different from each other in the battlefield. For now weapons types are tied to the class. Additional types will be added to each class as the game matures into launch. So yeah, the ability to switch to a bow for example is not in yet. It's just one of the decisions that were made at the top which everyone is pushing to get changed. Sloowly, they seem to be coming around

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    I also hope DDO doesn't "dumb down" with the enhancement overhaul as you're suggesting they probably will, but that's another story.
    WoTC feels they need their computer products to attarct more than just old school D&D freaks, of which many have long grown up and moved into corporate environments and left tabletop in the dust. Not everyone can actually work for Turbine & Cryptic Needless to say - NWO and DDO will looked more and more dumbed down to those of us that have loved our D&D. This is an MMO world, after all. Sorry not much to be happy about in this paragraph - but as they would tell ya privately, its business.

    When the dust clears, even with limitations placed on character choice at the moment, compared to DDO, Neverwinter has a lot going for it, including things many in the DDO community has long since gave up asking for. It needs to improve in the character customization arena, without question, but it seems to slowly be doing just that - so we'll see.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 02-11-2013 at 01:46 PM.


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  3. #123
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    +1 to you LW Aandre, thanks!

    I hope they come through on Neverwinter. I've no problem with folks wanting to hit the pre-made paths just to get rolling without having to worry about it, but I'm a builder myself.

    Likewise I hope DDO finds a way to get out more content somehow. People who have suggested user made content have been countered that it may be too difficult to implement at this time, which is a shame since it could be great fun.

    If both companies find a way I'm sure I'm going to have terrible difficulty allocating my time.

  4. #124
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musouka View Post

    If people are really doubting user made content, they really need to stop. Already there are about 40 different adventures that are more amazing and involved than some of the regular game content.
    The foundry is what appeals to me the most. If DDO ever adds something like this I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever leave.


    To Mus and anyone else who cares to answer (Leslie?):

    1- how does the user content compare to the Cryptic content? And if Musouka is correct, that some of it was 'more amazing' than the Cryptic content, how were users able to generate content with a brand new tool in beta that was better than Cryptic's in less than five days?


    2- what do you think the limitations of the user created content?


    3- did anyone actually play around with the foundry?

  5. #125
    Community Member apaurin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Skill/DC checks are not part of the system, but I understand are currently in development. As of now you either have the ability or you do not. Each class currently gets one skill. Wizards get arcana, fighters get dungeoneering, clerics get religion, thieves get thievery. It's likely a "currently unknown class" gets nature. If you don't have a skill, you can either group up with somebody who does or use skill granting items in enabling the skill for three minutes. This is a brilliant workaround to the DDO UMD system, that allows for much easier solo play if thats what you are looking for.

    The character stats are intertwined with much of your build (your powers). You have a main stat and two secondary stats. You roll stats much like you do in tabletop.

    Tactical abilities are interwoven into some powers, and foot placement when using those powers is very important. It's not quite as click-happy as DDO is, yet there is definitely strategy involved. Really hard to explain here, as I love the DDO tactics system. Its different, yet still fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    The classes are tuned to feel very different from each other in the battlefield. For now weapons types are tied to the class. Additional types will be added to each class as the game matures into launch. So yeah, the ability to switch to a bow for example is not in yet. It's just one of the decisions that were made at the top which everyone is pushing to get changed. Sloowly, they seem to be coming around
    Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...
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  6. #126
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apaurin View Post
    Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...
    I agree.

    This beta seems to be a mess with them not sure where they want to go or what to do.

    Actually its starting to sound exactly like Guild Wars 2.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  7. #127
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    1- how does the user content compare to the Cryptic content? And if Musouka is correct, that some of it was 'more amazing' than the Cryptic content, how were users able to generate content with a brand new tool in beta that was better than Cryptic's in less than five days?


    2- what do you think the limitations of the user created content?


    3- did anyone actually play around with the foundry?
    hard to say at this point how much freedom we'll have with the foundry since no one got to play around with it atm.
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  8. #128
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    hard to say at this point how much freedom we'll have with the foundry since no one got to play around with it atm.
    So what the heck is Musouka talking about? How did he see and supposedly play up to 40 user generated quests?

    Neverwinter devs just making some side content to demonstrate how it works maybe?

  9. #129
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Yeah and the guild grouping features are to die for. For example there's a calendar feature officers can use to setup scheduled guild runs... with reminders built right into the game. Any guildie can sign right up on the fly.
    This is a feature that WoW has had for years, would be a nice feature in DDO. Guild bank and officer ranking would be nice too. WoW's guild bank also allows many levels of access based on the guild members rank. Wish DDO had 11 million subscribers and the money to spend on some of these enhanced features.

    Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. - Ronald Reagan

  10. #130
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    So what the heck is Musouka talking about? How did he see and supposedly play up to 40 user generated quests?

    Neverwinter devs just making some side content to demonstrate how it works maybe?
    From my understanding forum mod and other cryptic employees that were not the level design dev team use the foundry to make some quests to show off the system. One that I played I know was made by someone who is a forum mod and represenative not a actual developer if that makes sense.

  11. #131
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    From my understanding forum mod and other cryptic employees that were not the level design dev team use the foundry to make some quests to show off the system. One that I played I know was made by someone who is a forum mod and represenative not a actual developer if that makes sense.
    That absolutely makes sense. Thank you.

    It also explains why the content Musouka said he saw was so good. It is surely far above par with what the average user will create if STO (or any of the various user mod games) is any indication of how these things typically go.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    That absolutely makes sense. Thank you.

    It also explains why the content Musouka said he saw was so good. It is surely far above par with what the average user will create if STO (or any of the various user mod games) is any indication of how these things typically go.
    Musouko is correct, but not exactly for the reasons given though. The UGC is very strong, much of it on par and yes, even more engrossing that some of the Cryptic instances quests.. which are all well done that Ive seen. None of the UGC that I saw were developer created.

    NDA blocks me from explaining why the UGC has been this solid so early on, lets just say there's a letter before beta in the greek alphabet.......
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 02-11-2013 at 04:21 PM.


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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by apaurin View Post
    Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...
    Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

    My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.


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  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    This beta seems to be a mess with them not sure where they want to go or what to do.

    Actually its starting to sound exactly like Guild Wars 2.
    From someone there whose been very critical of Cryptic since the very beginning, I have to tell you that beta and other testing opportunities that Ive been a part of have gone very smoothly. Its not at all chaotic. Its been in fact the best testing experience Ive had in years. They actually know what they want to do... and did long ago. In development, things get added and subtracted and altered... they are still doing that now.. even in beta.

    As for GW2, no. Not anywhere in a near galaxy.


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  15. #135
    Community Member apaurin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

    My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.
    I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...
    Active characters: Pssyche * Dredmor * Worley * Bundolo

  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by apaurin View Post
    I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...
    Core mechanics are getting changed, in fact one of them is currently on the chopping block if testers get their.... Oh sorry, Cryptic police.. hey, watch the threads!!


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  17. #137
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

    My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.
    Agreed for what they showed it was actually a very good beta with imo a lot polish. I ran sunday after the bug that kept me from playing was fixed and I kept an eye out for bugs. Honestly I was very impressed with this aspect as I couldn't find one that I thought was a bug. The closest was a caster that cast teleport to get out of melee way too often and took longer to kill than most bosses because of it.

    The customization needs work.
    They need to add more classes. (going to happen)
    4e isn't that great but what can you do.

    However in terms of bugs their beta made ddo's live look like an alpha status game. If they add some more customization and enough of my current guildies go over to it, I'll probably leave ddo just because of the bugs and that level of polish if it stays consistent. I've been thinking about this quite a bit during the past day, and while I love the character creation and 3.5 parts of ddo I think I'd be quite willing to leave to play a game with less bugs encountered.

  18. #138
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Core mechanics are getting changed, in fact one of them is currently on the chopping block if testers get their.... Oh sorry, Cryptic police.. hey, watch the threads!!

    I'm putting my money on the rooting. They said they had the game running without rooting already, so this should be an easy change. If they decide to open the classes up a bit; add saving throws, skills, or whatever else is lacking (such as a Fighter being able to pick up a bow), is it feasible they can manipulate the system without much difficulty? As one poster stated, it might be too much of a change from the current system & they've already delayed, what? 20 years or so? Ha ha, just kidding on that last one.

  19. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

    My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.
    I've never been a fan of any game where the primary reason for playing a class the way you want it, is a afterthought based on input from beta players. Don't get me wrong; but it's different when you make a game with that as a primary feature or decide to ad hoc it in later.

    To cementing in a class into a hack and slash just to maybe add to it later means that there never was a strong focus on the builder part. And it's not coded for that either. While the foundry sounds like a neat prospect I've seen and played game with a similar approach. You get 1-3 percent good content out of 97 broken and lousy. And where someones rating becomes king - not because it happens to be the best content but because people will exploit the means to rate it.

    Thus human nature skips the good stuff for the things with lots of stars. I'm not saying it's good or bad only that it sound super interesting but wading through cookie cutter broken stuff is a waste of time in it itself. And that's not a question of remaining with DDO, but to me without the primary focus in building this is a no deal. I can skip the plentitude of man made dungeons if I in turn can keep the possibilities of my own gamestyle without being suckered into x class with x item. That will grow old very quickly.

  20. #140
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apaurin View Post
    I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...
    multiple fighter classes are not exactly how 4e works, but it isn't completely off either.

    basically, when you choose a class, most of them have 2 or more variations, and in some cases will also have multiple possible sources of variation... for example, you can have a cleric that trades in turn undead for more healing. another ability that adds wisdom modifier to healing that my (pure healing specialized) cleric has could be traded in for proficiency in scale armour (that's equal to a fighter for the record, and is actually quite good) and a +2 shield bonus to AC (which is actually as high as shields go, ever, for AC i think).

    this doesn't even account for the difference between essentials versions of a class and the old version, mind you.

    now, you can change some decisions later on... you can choose different powers, you can choose different feats, you can retrain skills, and you can apparently retrain your theme (which is kind of like a background). but generally speaking, those abilities you choose at level 1 when you pick your class, those are there to stay forever.

    so, for example, there *is* such a thing as a "great weapon fighter". sort of. you can choose to be better with certain kinds of weapons, for example, two-handed weapons, or one-handed weapons, or two weapons, or even having a hand available for grab attacks, or using exotic weapons, and so forth. you can't really change those later on.

    that said, nothing about the two-handed weapon talent prevents you from picking up a bow (in fact, looking at it, the two-handed weapon talent works on a bow, since it isn't limited to melee attacks). nor does it force any later decisions (although it certainly makes certain decisions a better choice... you don't *have* to choose from powers that work while holding a two-handed weapon, but it's certainly a wise decision to choose those powers).

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