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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Part of the issue is that separation in amount of damage that can be done between different PRE is multiplicitive when in destinies, rather than additive.

    The question still stands: How much should a tank have to sacrifice in DPS in order to focus on tanking and defense. With the way destinies are set up right now, that separation is huge. On my barbarian, I can completely destroy epic elite mobs when in either LD or FotW, but on my paladin, if I fight one mob, I feel like its going to go 12 rounds, and I might win by decision if the refs think I landed more blows than the opponent did.

    So, when melee offense builds do this much more DPS than melee defense builds, the issue is that if the melee defense build cant hold aggro, all that defense the player built for is worthless - as its not taking pressure off the melee offense builds. Heaven forbid tanks actually get an offensive buff, so the answer is: a buff of 1 kazillion percentage to threat generated, and hyperbole aside, pure offense melee still pull aggro from time to time.

    Another part of the issue with EDs is: How many times to we have to learn the instakill lesson? The easy button EE farming ritual has become, roll with maxed wisdom monk splashed divines. A party of ED monks (or high wis builds) is as effective as a party of PMs were when the max level is 20, due to ONE ability. Everyone else has to work for it. When they first nerfed it I would have preferred a critter limit rather than a cooldown increase.

    Moral of the story: Additive power creep is better than multiplicitive power creep. It doesnt get out of control nearly as quickly, and if something is more powerful additively, the stuff that is less powerful can still hold its own and is still fun to play. In a multiplicitive power creep scenario, its too easy for different mechanics coded in different eras of the game to combine to become OP to the point of hilarity and leave everything else behind.
    Last edited by Chai; 02-05-2013 at 11:41 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22
    Community Member Indoran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    I think the problem is that the cap has been raised by 5 levels, and toons became much more powerful, but we don't have that much new endgame content. So it all feels too easy.

    IMHO we should at least wait and see what epic GH brings before we decide we're too strong (or too weak, cuz there are also people that say the game is too hard, lol).
    You feel the game is too easy??? Run Epic Elite... You feel EE is too easy... you are possibly percentile 95 in terms of gear and experience... so do something else and let the game catch up...
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  3. #23
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    It's okay to nerf EiN to uselessness making an otherwise total garbage destiny pointless, but pump Sentinel which has the ridiculously broken Intolerant Blows... uh... right.
    I keep seeing these references to EiN being the only good thing in the otherwise "useless" Grandmaster of Flowers, and I completely fail to see how this is the case. You're saying that the following are all "total garbage":

    • Drifting Lotus
    • +1.5[W] damage
    • +3% doublestrike
    • Tons of save boosts with "no fail on a 1"
    • Tons of stacking energy resists with +6 AC/+15 HP/+3 attack and damage/+30% striding and some great kickers depending on what stance you're in
    • +3 to tactical feat DCs
    • Immunity to knockdown
    • Immunity to slippery surfaces
    • Tumbling through enemies
    • A clickie that instantly grants 25-125 ki
    • A clickie that acts like Unyielding Sovereignty with a much shorter cool-down
    • A clickie that blinds enemies and grants 25% dodge
    • An epic moment that still clears a LOT of trash mobs in an instant


    Good god man. If that's all garbage to you, then I want to go through your trash bin sometime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

  4. #24
    Community Member jsm123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indoran View Post
    You feel the game is too easy??? Run Epic Elite... You feel EE is too easy... you are possibly percentile 95 in terms of gear and experience... so do something else and let the game catch up...
    This is the problem with Power Gamers. Some are retired, some are still in grade school & have no job, and some just no-life without taking care of responsibilities first. There are a lot of us that have jobs, go to school, have more than one job, etc, etc and can't power through levels and past lives like the former.

    As one of those people that work and go to post-secondary school, I can say I am happy with the way things are moving. I highly doubt I will ever catch up to the constant new content being released, and that's the way it should be.

    We all strive to max out our characters' gear and abilities. When this happens, sure things are going to be a lot easier. For those that are at that point & get bored, do as Indoran is saying. Play another game while you wait for new content to come out. And when new content does come out, don't panicly try to beat everyone. It's an MMO and is supposed to be a long-term thing.

    If you like beating games really fast, then buy console games (or on computer if you prefer) and beat those.

    The reason you are bored of the content that has been released is probably because you fire through them like crazy, buy xp boosting pots, raid timer bypasses, etc, etc.

    It's not a race.
    Last edited by jsm123; 02-05-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    I keep seeing these references to EiN being the only good thing in the otherwise "useless" Grandmaster of Flowers, and I completely fail to see how this is the case. You're saying that the following are all "total garbage":

    • Drifting Lotus
    • +1.5[W] damage
    • +3% doublestrike
    • Tons of save boosts with "no fail on a 1"
    • Tons of stacking energy resists with +6 AC/+15 HP/+3 attack and damage/+30% striding and some great kickers depending on what stance you're in
    • +3 to tactical feat DCs
    • Immunity to knockdown
    • Immunity to slippery surfaces
    • Tumbling through enemies
    • A clickie that instantly grants 25-125 ki
    • A clickie that acts like Unyielding Sovereignty with a much shorter cool-down
    • A clickie that blinds enemies and grants 25% dodge
    • An epic moment that still clears a LOT of trash mobs in an instant


    Good god man. If that's all garbage to you, then I want to go through your trash bin sometime.
    I find lots of good things with the Monk destiny but ironically most of them as twists. On its pure Monks can get wellrounded and good, but a Monk that twist its destiny and diverse in say the Barbarian one can be beast. So EIN does not a monk destiny make.

    I mean look at some of the destinies with the worst end tiers but good in so many other things. Like the Draconic.

    Horrible end tiers. Okay long running AOE - so thats' good. The Hunger one is a massive waste of SP. Not to mention the silly massive DR one. If anyone can ever build up to use it, call me. Cause I can't. It's pointless. Yet the rest of the destiny is great for a savant.

    Look at wiz. Outside the 10 discount (that is the same one that the wiz can get for their set bonus - it does not stack) it's not that good. Horrid slow to cast AOE, the build up is meh since it will only work on non red stuff and is therefore worthless (better just to shoot stuff and 'turn' off their abilities). But as a whole the rest of the destiny is okay. It really adds some features to a wiz/sorc.

    Look at legendary; great over all for melee but the high tier stuff outside better crit with great axe is meh. Takes a while to build up and it feels like you're not really 'feeling' it. But no one can deny that the rest of the destiny shines.

    Look at the barbarian one. Excellent stuff and probably one of the best top tier. Super crits every 2 seconds for 30 seconds? My lord - combined with a crit clicky that will slap things with 1k plus damage and you have gold.

    The Monk destiny is by all means not bad at all and have many things that compliment Monks. It's excellent for twists and have many of their better effects tier 4 and down.

    I think that some have honestly looked at EIN as the end and be all and are now bitter that they have to put Wisdom in it to be effective. Yet I was so busy taking advantage of everything else on my Monk that I forgot to use it most of the time.

  6. #26
    Community Member jsm123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    Good god man. If that's all garbage to you, then I want to go through your trash bin sometime.
    I agree. GoF is a very powerful ED for those with monk levels. There is nothing puny about it.

  7. #27
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    It's okay to nerf EiN to uselessness making an otherwise total garbage destiny pointless.
    This is flat out not true. Grandmaster of flowers is one of the best defensive destinies out there. This was the obvious choice on my unarmed survivealist build with or without ein. There are also some offensive benefits and some utility benefits from Grandmaster of Flowers.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Reos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    Crucible is a quest I love to hate. I'm not going to miss it being a flagging quest, but wouldn't mind if there was some kind of nice loot that would make it a "must-run" quest.
    I actually will miss it as a flagging quest. It "felt" like an actual challenge, particularly the first time I played through it. It seems fitting for the circumstance, has a grander feel than Cabal For One, which you can simply run through on your own. I have to wonder if people will run Crucible at all afterwards, unless they include some amazing reward, like you suggest.
    Last edited by Reos; 02-05-2013 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reos View Post
    I actually will miss it as a flagging quest. It "felt" like an actual challenge, particularly the first time I played through it. It seems fitting for the circumstance, has a grander feel than Cabal For One, which you can simply run through on your own. I have to wonder if people will run Crucible at all afterwards, unless they include some amazing reward, like you suggest.
    The xp is too good not to run it.
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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    Crucible is a quest I love to hate. I'm not going to miss it being a flagging quest, but wouldn't mind if there was some kind of nice loot that would make it a "must-run" quest.
    Ghost-Waking Cloak, maybe?

  11. #31
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    I see no reason for Ein to be touched. If they were, the only thing they would need to do is adjust the counter cost. But it has all the same drawbacks as old power abilities on bosses, so it will be used as a monks wail. Just slower in frequency.

    Edit:
    As a note, I think ED's are a great top end customization. I hope along with enhancement changes, they do something more with ED's.

  12. #32
    The Hatchery teh_meh's Avatar
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    EiN, as it stands, is an unprecedented easy button and you should be embarrassed even using it. It needs adjusting and I have no sympathy for your losses. The other epic moments are a joke comparatively.

    They clipped FvS wings because it broke eLOB well...EiN breaks eCitW. Die.
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  13. #33
    Community Member spectroum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    How in the world is Intolerant blows broken? It is meant to let tanks help keep up with barbs and fighters who are hitting crits for 10,000 points of damage. Most tanks (who are in sentinel) max out at 300-400 points on a crit. 1000% threat and +1W isn't broken. You can't expect a tank to keep threat unless they got a serious buff in their ability to do so, because they sure didn't get a DPS buff.
    ^that is how u keep aggro vs angry barbs and sorcs


    if u wanna do something with destinies instead of nerfing them try to idk...fix stuff like strike down

    cheers!
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  14. #34
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    Just talked this over with my guildies last night actually- the consensus was thus:
    Shiradi is fine- while it CAN be spammed, most procs result in overkill damage, so it is fine.
    The rest are fine as is in terms of OVER powered, but the following need work for being underpowered:
    Magister- needs MUCH work! Better Epic moment, better abilities in general- i know SOME people like the buffbot-esque sigils, but most of us just want our 8th life casters to be able to do what we built them for (instakill/cc) reliably with this destiny...
    Draconic- needs a SMALL buff- the epic moment is VERY weak and unfitting for the class, and the spell power needs a small buff- from 30 to maybe 50?
    Exalted angel- another one that needs a small buff, again, change spell power bonuses for light and heals to 50 instead of 30? also, wouldnt mind the 10% bonus SP being a t2 instead of t1 to make it less twistable if you'll buff the destiny itself then...
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  15. #35
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    If you have good toons, there is no such things as "overpowered"

  16. #36
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    most procs result in overkill damage, so it is fine.
    You haven't see aa in fury yet 70k-80k in 20 sec of manyshot and a moncher is even more deadly.

    EDIT: Shiradi is not "overpowered" as many people think, even a barb can hit for 40k now...and like I said, there is no such things as "overpowered".
    Last edited by Viconiax; 02-08-2013 at 07:09 PM.

  17. #37
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    The only ED ability I've ever had an issue with is EiN. Maybe Energy Burst or other ED abilities are overpowered, but none have damaged/trivialized gameplay the way EiN has.

    Comparing EiN with the pre-nerf Wail:
    - EiN doesn't need to be built for. You could make Wisdom a dump stat and still have 45 DC on EiN, which is about the DC a caster would be able to achieve with decent gear.
    - EiN bypasses spell resistance. This is huge, especially in Forgotten Realms EE's. Why grind out 6 past lives for spell penetration when you can ignore spell resistance entirely on your first life?
    - EiN ignores immunity to death, allowing it to target more enemies than Wail can.

    The last two are understandable - it is an epic moment after all, and only usable every five minutes. But the first is simply unacceptable. Being able to clear an entire room of enemies, simply because you made it to level 25 on a monk? Turbine was wise to fix this one. Now monks will have to work for their DC's, just like the rest of us.

  18. #38
    Community Member konexion's Avatar
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    Talking

    die vic. that is all
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  19. #39
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by konexion View Post
    die vic. that is all
    I'm unkillable

  20. #40
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    Default epic destinies

    The one benefit of the added epic destinies is that you are able to solo most quest at higher levels, which you really could not do previously on higher levels.

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