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  1. #1
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Default Ranged. why you gotta hate???

    Any bow user is going to end up wanting or using pinion or be miles behind in dps.

    which means nearly every one of them is likely to use the planar conflux set.

    since red dragonscale seeker 10 is already replicated on pinion, and ranged bow users have to do whatever they can to stay relevant, the go-to-option seems to be black dragonscale armor

    by making the (pitifully small) ranged damage bonus aspect of the black dragon armor set an artifact bonus that does not stack with planar conflux, since every ranged build worth anything is using a pinion and planar conflux, this is POINTLESS and makes the items valueless, or at least worth a lot less

    fixing it to a different set bonus would also be pointless because, so far, the only black dragon helm I have seen has +3 insightful dex. Dex is an important stat for most ranged builds, which is why MOST of them try to get treads of falling shadow, which covers all their non-exceptional+1 dex needs. so the helm would be redundant or force them to find +8 dex elsewhere where it may not be as practical.

    PLEASE, for the already-barely-relevant-in-endgame archers out here, do this:

    make the set bonus from the black dragonscale armor stack with the planar focus set, or remove the ranged component of it entirely and give some other ranged bonus

    AND

    let there be an as yet undiscovereed version of the black dragon helm with +3 str , con or wis on it, not only dex.

  2. #2
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    Well, first of all, according to the wiki, the black dragon helm can have either +8 or insightful +3 str, dex, or con on it, so that should help you somewhat. Second, Not every bow user will want to use pinion. Yes, it is a good bow, but not everyone wants to run that raid. Another good bow, though incredibly hard to get, is epic thornlord. So, there is at least 1 technical alternative for a good, quality end game bow. Another option is to use a different planar focus. Grab the subterfuge one for exceptional sneak attack +5, true seeing and dodge 3%. And then wear the black dragon set for it's set bonus. There are alternatives for gear setups, which is one of the biggest draws to this game.

  3. #3
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    Sure theirs alternatives for every build out there , I guaranty The black doesn't get much use at all from ranged builds with this update ! But be sure to point out that not everyone wants to run citw ! personally i don't mind it .

    So i guess it ain't too bad to ask why they left a great melee artifact option and left us ranged users with .... !!!

    And with the addition of the red slot on citw weapons , the thornlord could get banked !!

    And yeah the addition of egh just made upgrading the pinion that much easier !

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    Sure theirs alternatives for every build out there , I guaranty The black doesn't get much use at all from ranged builds with this update ! But be sure to point out that not everyone wants to run citw ! personally i don't mind it .

    So i guess it ain't too bad to ask why they left a great melee artifact option and left us ranged users with .... !!!

    And with the addition of the red slot on citw weapons , the thornlord could get banked !!

    And yeah the addition of egh just made upgrading the pinion that much easier !
    I don't know how the drop rates for comms will be in the fall of truth when it goes live, but needing to pull the actual weapon along with 25 commendations to fully upgrade, with DDO's penchant for not giving anyone any raid loot at all, sounds like a pretty tall order. Regardless, the entire purpose of my post was simply to point out that making this one bonus not stack with one other bonus is not as huge of a build breaker as the OP is making it sound.

  5. #5
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    Default Yeahhhhh!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    I don't know how the drop rates for comms will be in the fall of truth when it goes live, but needing to pull the actual weapon along with 25 commendations to fully upgrade, with DDO's penchant for not giving anyone any raid loot at all, sounds like a pretty tall order. Regardless, the entire purpose of my post was simply to point out that making this one bonus not stack with one other bonus is not as huge of a build breaker as the OP is making it sound.
    I for one think it's a pretty big deal , When you implement an item thats geared towards ranged / melee then nerf the ranged portion while leaving the melee there benefits , Yeah it's pretty ...... up !!!

    Bad enough we have a subpar bow to throw away or use on ele's if you don't have precision feat !

    The only nice ranged edition to U17 is the quiver and not that it's crazy good , mainly it's cause it's a step foward in the right direction / But wait we just took 3 steps back with the rest of the could be ranged u17 options !

    If the ranged portion of the community felt bad about the bonus before the nerf , Way to add death to injury !!

  6. #6
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    Well, first of all, according to the wiki, the black dragon helm can have either +8 or insightful +3 str, dex, or con on it, so that should help you somewhat. Second, Not every bow user will want to use pinion. Yes, it is a good bow, but not everyone wants to run that raid. Another good bow, though incredibly hard to get, is epic thornlord. So, there is at least 1 technical alternative for a good, quality end game bow. Another option is to use a different planar focus. Grab the subterfuge one for exceptional sneak attack +5, true seeing and dodge 3%. And then wear the black dragon set for it's set bonus. There are alternatives for gear setups, which is one of the biggest draws to this game.
    I did not see that info about the black dragon helm, so yes, that is one concern alleviated and I am happy about it. As far as alternatives, I have to disagree. For anyone who does not want to run CITW but wants a ranged toon, you either need to suck it up or do second rate DPS. end of story. Even if that is ok with you, Epic Thornlord, which is monstrously rare, is not even close to the next best choice, the Unwavering Ardency is. Assuming your ranged toon carries improved crit:ranged ,(which i imagine any ranged toon does) a non-upgraded pinion will do, on average, 12.6 more damage per shot than Epic Thornlord, and a fully upgraded pinion will do 17.7 more damage per shot. Unwavering ardency is only 2.6 behind the non-upgraded pinion, although some of it is fire damage as opposed to sonic which less mobs are immune to. The difference does not depend on your damage modifier, since that affectst the total damage in a linear fashion (str bonus, racial bonuses, "artifact" bonuses etc), although if you compare the EE roadwatch bow which has a lower crit profile then that can come into account. I have tried to attach a graph which shows this.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    Well, first of all, according to the wiki, the black dragon helm can have either +8 or insightful +3 str, dex, or con on it, so that should help you somewhat. Second, Not every bow user will want to use pinion. Yes, it is a good bow, but not everyone wants to run that raid. Another good bow, though incredibly hard to get, is epic thornlord. So, there is at least 1 technical alternative for a good, quality end game bow. Another option is to use a different planar focus. Grab the subterfuge one for exceptional sneak attack +5, true seeing and dodge 3%. And then wear the black dragon set for it's set bonus. There are alternatives for gear setups, which is one of the biggest draws to this game.
    The other planar focus is a good idea in theory, but again, replicates the dex bonuses given by the treads of falling shadow, although the wisdom one would be good for monkchers
    Last edited by Shmuel; 02-02-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Hatchery Founder Glenalth's Avatar
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    Initially, the low bonus on the black armor was disappointing.

    Now that it doesn't stack with the claw set or prowess set makes it lame.

    Just give it a tiny "artifact" speed increase to match up with the doublestrike that the melees get instead. Then everyone can be happy.
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  9. #9
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    The other planar focus is a good idea in theory, but again, replicates the dex bonuses given by the treads of falling shadow, although the wisdom one would be good for monkchers
    Personally, my monkcher is looking at the black scale excited...but for anyone using the Prowess set, it's a slight slap in the face (I already was using subterfuge for +3 wis when I upgraded my bow).

    In all honesty, black scale set should really stack...it's stupid that it doesn't. In all honesty, though, it should have a (stacking and correct amount, importantly) +3-5% artifact bonus attack speed for bows, or something.

    Edit: I'd use black scale either way, though, in all honesty...20% armor piercing for a build with decent sneak attack and crit damage is nice.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    I did not see that info about the black dragon helm, so yes, that is one concern alleviated and I am happy about it. As far as alternatives, I have to disagree. For anyone who does not want to run CITW but wants a ranged toon, you either need to suck it up or do second rate DPS. end of story. Even if that is ok with you, Epic Thornlord, which is monstrously rare, is not even close to the next best choice, the Unwavering Ardency is. Assuming your ranged toon carries improved crit:ranged ,(which i imagine any ranged toon does) a non-upgraded pinion will do, on average, 12.6 more damage per shot than Epic Thornlord, and a fully upgraded pinion will do 17.7 more damage per shot. Unwavering ardency is only 2.6 behind the non-upgraded pinion, although some of it is fire damage as opposed to sonic which less mobs are immune to. The difference does not depend on your damage modifier, since that affectst the total damage in a linear fashion (str bonus, racial bonuses, "artifact" bonuses etc), although if you compare the EE roadwatch bow which has a lower crit profile then that can come into account. I have tried to attach a graph which shows this.
    That is an interesting graph. I honestly wasn't aware that pinion was so far ahead of everything else. I knew it was good, but not by that much per hit. As far as doing "second rate DPS", not everyone builds their characters for uber max full ****** DPS. Many things are taken into account when creating a character, and weapon choice is one of those factors. Personally, I will not set foot into CitW, so I don't even look at that loot as an option when designing my characters. There are enough other options available, even if inferior, that the loss of DPS by not having a pinion is more than made up for by not having to run that raid, ever.

    On a more in depth note, I think this change is really just a symptom of what is really plaguing ranged combat. In my opinion, the biggest problem with ranged combat, and reason why all of the options for it are so bad, is the current implementation of manyshot of 10k stars. To put that into context of why I think they are the problem, I will illustrate this bonus, using pinion with imp crit. During normal fire, this buff is worth about 2.7 damage per hit average, but with manyshot active, giving you effectively four hits per "hit", this buff is suddenly worth 10.8 damage per hit average. The dev's have to keep the ranged damage buffs low, both in numerical value and stacking ability, otherwise manyshot, and other rate of fire boosting effects like 10k stars and fusilade, will take that damage buff and blow it way out of proportion for a few seconds.

  11. #11
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Well every raid in the game, including the U17 one, has been solo'd by an archer, no other class can claim that currently (that I know of). Do they really need more DPS?

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenalth View Post
    Initially, the low bonus on the black armor was disappointing.

    Now that it doesn't stack with the claw set or prowess set makes it lame.

    Just give it a tiny "artifact" speed increase to match up with the doublestrike that the melees get instead. Then everyone can be happy.
    Yeah not a 3 % increase either , like 10 % increase which would really be a 4% , And yeah a 3% dstrike is a lot more then a 4 % ranged alacrity boost !!

  13. #13
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    Default Sure !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    Well every raid in the game, including the U17 one, has been solo'd by an archer, no other class can claim that currently (that I know of). Do they really need more DPS?
    If you want to devote your gaming experience to soloing / taking forever to complete / burn resources , By all means 75 percent of every class can solo if they invest in it . Raw power in a general consensus we lack a .... Ton !!!

  14. #14
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    for the already-barely-relevant-in-endgame archers
    An Archer soloed Hard CitW.... They ain't that terrible a build.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    Well, first of all, according to the wiki, the black dragon helm can have either +8 or insightful +3 str, dex, or con on it, so that should help you somewhat. Second, Not every bow user will want to use pinion. Yes, it is a good bow, but not everyone wants to run that raid. Another good bow, though incredibly hard to get, is epic thornlord. So, there is at least 1 technical alternative for a good, quality end game bow. Another option is to use a different planar focus. Grab the subterfuge one for exceptional sneak attack +5, true seeing and dodge 3%. And then wear the black dragon set for it's set bonus. There are alternatives for gear setups, which is one of the biggest draws to this game.
    Exactly that i hate that raid (citw), i've run it once so far...still looking for the thornlord shard...

  16. #16
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    An Archer soloed Hard CitW.... They ain't that terrible a build.
    zen archery should never have made long/short bows into ki weapons... >___>
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    zen archery should never have made long/short bows into ki weapons... >___>
    Hello can of worms, how do you feel today?


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    zen archery should never have made long/short bows into ki weapons... >___>
    Well the new thing is that ranged doesn't need to be fixed in multiple aspects of the game , Cause if you make a monkcher in certain ed's and you can get resources and practice to solo stuff which in then makes you op !!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    Well the new thing is that ranged doesn't need to be fixed in multiple aspects of the game , Cause if you make a monkcher in certain ed's and you can get resources and practice to solo stuff which in then makes you op !!
    Dont forget Pinion. Never forget Pinion. The eSoS of the ranged world...

    Of course, none of this means that pure AA Rangers dont need some love

  20. #20
    SithDDO Symerith's Avatar
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    I don't think ppl should truly be concerned about class balance at this time because everything is going to get changed in "a certain amount of time". I wish I could say soon but the enh. pass could very well be end of december 2013.

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