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  1. #1
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    Default Updates to Old Gear, Game Mechanics and Transparency.

    I for one see this as a feature of a good mmo. Changing outdated loot to reflect a grander scope of things and prevent things from stacking in arbitrarily overpowered ways is a positive thing in the end. I can understand that the general consensus is that nerfs are bad, but frankly I think people who feel that way are not looking at a bigger picture. This shows us that the devs are in fact watching older gear. They're looking into making changes on what does and doesn't get used (I'm looking at you just about every single sands epic item) and they're making changes so that things are more useful overall. I wish dearly that they could snap their fingers and have these things done every update, but if they did I'm certain that they would be changing more often then half the population of these forums change their socks.

    One of the most successful games in online gaming history was Diablo 2. It only ever had one 'expansion'. Yes in its numerous updates, they added, changed, updated, revamped and changed the top end gear often. Stagnation is bad. These updates and changes are much much better then a new pack comes out: "Here are the best items, here are the ones that suck. This one would be good, but there was a better one nine packs ago that competes for that slot."

    Some gear will become invalidated by content changes, mechanic changes or new gear coming out. If you expected your greensteel greataxe to be the best thing ever, forever: Then you were deluded. Eventually, there will be a new ESOS, some already think Sireth, Spear of the Sky is. There is a new epic marilith chain. Planar conflux sets are better then claw sets, and those strangely enough are better then the Angers Set from back on korthos.

    Will casters ever get nerfed? I dunno but have you tried running around many of the newer quests with the Epic Willow of the Wisps? There are mechanics out there to keep casters in check, and ideally we will see more of that. I'd like to see more beholders, more 'you can't cast during this effect'. Earthquake affects spell failure. A bunch of new tactics and maybe in the enhancement pass casters will get a little less free 'winning'. The same could be said in reverse for both ranged combat and two weapon fighting. Less 'nerfing', and more bonuses that keep them close to the same balance. Will certain classes or types be more powerful in certain situations? Most assuredly. But I'm pretty sure that with some careful adjustments they can all be brought to close to the same power level.

    I'm sure this is getting far too TLR for most of the people who read these forums and I could've summed it up with less, but I think that the rage over a mechanic change on the 'Test Server' is a bit extreme. Should it have made it to the release notes? Probably. Are they probably watching and making some adjustments to it based on our feedback? Almost certainly. Personally I'm hoping that:

    1: Exceptional Damage/To Hit stay 'Exceptional' I'm looking at you Tower of Despair sets.
    2: More use of the term 'Insightful'. Lets stick with easy to remember terms overall. The old issue of Competence/Enhancement was annoying, and confusing for new players. Competence/Insight/Exceptional/Profane... things that don't sound similar and don't seem like they shouldn't stack.
    3: Artifact bonuses should be from raid gear only. Lets face it, not everything is an artifact. Planar Confluxes and relic weapons? Definitly. Dragonscale armors and helmets? Maybe. Gloves/Bracers of the claw? Probably not.
    4: Term things as a 'Set bonus'. A 'Set' Bonus to sneak attack damage from Venomed Set, a Set bonus from claw/etc.
    5: The more difficult or 'grindy' an item is to get, the more likely it should probably get either a buff, or consideration for an update. Ideal candidates are of course Epic Items from Sands of Mnechturan/Vault of Night/The Red Fens. As well as small changes to raid items from Hound of Xoriat, Vison of Destruction, Titan. yes, go for it make the change just give us a decent amount of time to preview and give feedback. As it stands with the inclusion of epic destinies, augments and the ideally upcoming enhancement pass, making a large portion of the games raid gear underwhelming and under adjustable like everything else will be is unfortunate. Imagine somebody getting a base sword of shadow at level 10. Then finding out that no, your crafted beater is better cause it has a red slot. Or for a less extreme case, finally getting the parts for an epic sands explorer item, like Sting, or Flint. Something cool and iconic, but completely useless. These items are just as rare as things like Epic Ring of Spell Storing, or Epic Thornlord but complete junk by comparison. I don't want both to be common, and I don't want both to be amazing, but make them not vendor trash bad.

    Essentially clean up the typing bonuses overall, and make it more clear to us what would stack and what wouldn't. Its easily done for things like spell power (Implement + Equipment + Psionic) or Saves (Resistance + Luck + Insight...) why not for damage and attack. Blindly changing things and hoping we, the players, figure it out, and that we accurately report any bugs, exploits or issues in a timely enough manner is foolhardy.

    If anybody bothers to actually read to the end of this ramble, thanks. Feel free to tell me I'm being crazy, and this is all doom and gloom worthy, cause well its a video game. Serious bizness, and all that.

  2. #2
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    Personally I think that nerfs in general are good as they make the game more balanced. But then I never strive for the best so my characters are rarely affected.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Personally I think that nerfs in general are good as they make the game more balanced. But then I never strive for the best so my characters are rarely affected.
    Balanced nerfs make the game more balanced. The problem is they tend to be more like sledgehammers with the promise to come back later and fix things if needed.

  4. #4
    Community Member Franke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Personally I think that nerfs in general are good as they make the game more balanced. But then I never strive for the best so my characters are rarely affected.
    I can fully understand your, and many players casual gaming style, it's a game after all and some pick up where they left off for an hour or two here and there. However, there are two sides to the coin here, there are also many players who do strive for the best with characters and tactics and as such they are more likely to be affected by nerfs.
    No matter what changes are implemented retroactively to equipment, someone,somewhere is going to be disadvantaged. The harder such equipment is to acquire, the more vociferous the response will be.

    Taking the position that as you haven't pursued the mind numbing grind for some items makes nerfs arbitrarily good may be perceived by some as burying your head in the sand. There will probably come a time when you acquire something in game that will be a difficult and drawn out process to attain, when it's nerfed I'll be surprised if you aren't a little annoyed.

    It's a fine line to tread for the devs and I fully understand the need for the game to evolve, but having very rare and difficult to obtain epic items being replaced by random loot gen. . . I'm not sure that the continuous erosion of such items is the way forward. I agree that other difficult to obtain equipment should surpass them eventually, and those items could be designed in such a fashion that they reduce power creep i.e. "best in slot" but doesn't stack with "insert item here".

  5. #5
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    If the devs you know buffed things like desert epics ext you might have a leg to stand on with these arguments. Any buffs will come sometime after the sun goes cold.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Excellent points about keeping loot fresh, and revising old loot to keep up with a developing game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by squeek1984 View Post
    I can understand that the general consensus is that nerfs are bad, but frankly I think people who feel that way are not looking at a bigger picture.
    on the suject of nerfs: Nerfs are bad, on principle.

    Nerf anything and everyone who uses it suffers.

    Maybe the game can be argued to benefit due to "improved balance" but the individuals subjected to the nerf do suffer, even if the suffering is temporary or transient.
    "Improved balance by nerfs" is another form of the "greater good" argument: should one individual be caused to suffer, if so doing benefits two individuals? What if it was 1:5? 1:100? 1:1000000?

    But it's a false dichotomy that assumes all improvements to game balance require nerfs. Nerfing is not the only way to achieve improved balance, and hurting individuals is not a requirement of improved balance.

    Nerfs, generally, suck, because they hurt individuals (however briefly or slightly), while achieving an end that can be achieved in other ways. Of course there will be exceptions - and that would be where you can draw your line of benefit vs cost.

    For me, the costs is almost always too high.
    Last edited by Hutoth; 02-03-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member ormsbygore's Avatar
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    +1. First of all, Thank you. I was actually planning on posting a TL : DR topic very similar to this...I'm too lazy, but you have inspired me to add my 2cp. I'm going to agree with probably 98% of what you've said, so I apologize for the repetitiveness, redundancy or tangents...there will probably be a lot.

    I like the fact that they are trying to unify the loot mechanics(giving the different bonuses types, so that we know what stacks and what doesn't). Yes, it may feel like a huge "nerf/kick in the nuts" to those that spend the hours to grind the gear for the perfect "best in slot" gear set, where everything that stacks can to max out DPS. But a lot of the older gear system or the way that new gear was introduced to that system was broken, or lacking in sophistication/uniformity.

    That being said, I'm not too happy with the way that the new raid gear looks, but I'm still excited for the update. Most of the gear out of the flagging/optional quests looks amazing. New~ish, epic explorer zone(same place essentially but with new goals to meet/xp to gain. The Dragonscale Armor/Helms(even with the upgrades to the armor) are a little underwhelming, but I'm still going to craft at least one pair of each if not more.

    Also to upgrading old loot, so that it's not in the "outdated/vendor trash" category, but more twards the "niche/situational" category, is awesome. I'm a little concerned that some items are getting retro upgrade, some items you can upgrade to the new versions with a ritual, but the rest you have to grind for again if you want the new versions(older non-epic versions of named items, sands/gh/anything else named that's getting a change and isn't epic).

    To explain a bit, I, as a lot of people I know, have bank characters that hold gear I think may be useful at some point in time, but isn't currently. I transferred one of said bank characters over to Lamannia to see if my older loot became useful. I was unable to change any of it to their newer versions. To confirm, I tested items that I knew were getting updates, and nothing happened(the usual, place item + khyber/siberys shards into Stone of Change = get new item). Myrlund's Spoon? Necklace of Fireballs?...lol

    Anyways...Yes to raid loot as "artifact" bonuses, and not-raid loot to "other types" of bonuses. Although I think the dragon sets should be unique or oddball bonuses(Draconic/Profane?). I hate to be this person, but your point #4 kinda contradicts point #1...but I digress.

    Biggest thing that I find interesting/fascinating is that with these mechanic changes or nerfs, people complain that it makes lower level epic gear inferior to higher level epic gear(ie: CitW Prowess and eClaw sets). I find it a blessing, I and my fellow guild mates have been struggling with our future gear sets, trying to fit in the eClaw set because it was stacking, now that it doesn't stack with the Prowess set our gear setups are more flexible.

    As for game balance? Why does everyone want to be equal? It's a huge reason I enjoy this game, every character/multi-class build/person is unique. Once melee/ranged/arcane/divine characters are equal in anyway it won't be D&D anymore. It's one of the huge reasons PvP isn't really viable in this game. If you want all characters to be equal go play WoW/SW:TOR...they're boring, everyone is equal...and so is their cookie cutter gear set-ups, where everything stacks and the stat systems are wonky.

    BTW...you're crazy, but so am I.
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  8. #8
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    This is one of the best written and most logical posts I have read on the forums in a long time. I agree with most, if not all, of what was said in the OP. Thank you for taking the time to write it up, and hopefully one the devs will actually see and read this, and take something from it.

  9. #9
    Community Member InSoNiAc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Very good ideas.

    Some very good ideas, including this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by squeek1984 View Post
    4: Term things as a 'Set bonus'. A 'Set' Bonus to sneak attack damage from Venomed Set, a Set bonus from claw/etc.

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  10. #10
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Glad you posted this Squeak.

    As a player enters this game, & progresses from a 28 pt build to end-game, builds, gear & knowledge takes on an almost "holy grail" type moniker. And when a player finally acquires the things they feel is best suited for them, ANY changes are either hated and ridiculed, or heralded as the best ever.

    Turbine's staff has evolved as the game has, and with that comes changes to development strategy and actual game dynamics. Not all of these changes are welcomed, but in the end, people that truly enjoy this game are still here.

    As the devs try to bring balance, some things will HAVE to get "nerfed" to facilitate this. Right now we're seeing individual items go through this. And some things will need to get watered down.
    It wasn't too long ago, weapon types got changed (vorpals, smiters, etc), and most of us complained, but here we are adapting to those changes.

    Bringing better balance is long overdue, and players will not like some of the changes necessary to make this happen. If a particular item is going to be at the top of it's list, make it extremely difficult to get. If people spent countless hours acquiring things we have in-game now, and some those items get "nerfed" there will be verbal helll to pay. (Nature of the beast.)

    U17 and introducing Epic GH along with it's upgraded loot, and the new augment system is a huge step forward, and I for one am glad to see that balance is a big part of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

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