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  1. #21
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I am always happy to see people experiment with builds mixing Divine and Arcane - Always been a fan of the Mystic Theurge but feel the lack of Practiced Spell Caster as a feat has been a problem with this type of build.

    Comments to help maybe fine tune your build...

    1) UMD - Why? Having Access to Divine/Arcane spells means you will use the level Check system not UMD for your ability to cast the spell. Also with Cleric/Wizard levels the highest you can commit is 11.5 at 20 with the .5 being a waste as all fractions are dropped.

    2) .5 on the skills - .5 is dropped at time of checks and only benefits you if you are able to add .5 in the next level. Try to end these skills on a whole number and use the extra point elsewhere

    3) Greater Spell Focus Necromancy - Not needed for PrE. If you use the Necro spells a lot its a good choice to help get a higher DC as Heighten will not get you to Level 9 spell casting. However, I think you would benefit more from Quicken.

    4) Racial Toughness III - Expensive 10 HP are you sure there aren't better ways to spend the 4 APs?

    5) Intelligence vs Wisdom - Why the higher investment in the caster stat of the lower caster class?

  2. #22
    Community Member kilagan800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mubjon View Post
    I had an idea to do something like this, save it was to do more wizard levels than cleric. I wanted to test to see if the enhancements from the cleric boosted the healing from death aura. I have not tried it yet, mostly because druid came out and I have a TR life wizard, TR Life Cleric and the druid to play.

    Do you have a palemaster that is around level 7 that you can compare the two with and without the cleric life enhancements to see if it boosts the death aura healing?
    That's a great idea. Yep, I have a level 8 2nd life pale master. I also compared the 13 cleric/7 wiz with my main toon's negative enery score at level 21. They are:

    Level 8 Pale Master-----
    32 Pt. Build
    Hit Points - 139
    Spell Points - 671
    Armor Class - 17 +2
    Fortitude - +7
    Reflex - +5
    Will - +8
    BAB - +4
    Spell Resist - 0
    Fortification - 75%

    Spell Power-
    Electric - 121
    Negative - 53
    Positive - 3
    Sonic - 73


    13 Cleric/7 Wizard---------
    32 Pt. Build
    Fortitiude - +17
    Reflex - +18
    Will - 19
    BAB - +12
    Spell Resist - 17
    Fortification - 75%

    Spell Power-
    Light - 60
    Negative - 188
    Positive - 114


    Level 21 Pale Master-------
    Hit Points - 422
    Spell Points - 2254
    Armor Class - 29 +2
    Fortitude - +19
    Reflex - +17
    Will - +19
    BAB - +11
    Spell Resist - +17
    Fortitude - 75%

    Spell Power-
    Negative - 210


    I added my main toon in there to compare the level 20 multiclass with the level 21 pure wiz.


    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    The question i would have is whether the positive/negative spell power enhancements from cleric stack with the negative spell power from pale master. I would expect they don't since both are class enhancements.

    For the record, the sp you have at level 20 is similar to what my 18 cleric/ 2 fighter had at level 20. I'm not really sure how you would have a lot more than that unless you were to burn a lot of ap on spell point enhancements, which is somewhat of a waste in my opinion.
    I just figured the positive/negative energy would stack and never gave it a second thought until you guys mentioned it. But, yep they stack.

    Yeah, I always try to add as much sp as I can get through action points and with mental and improved mental toughness. That's just how I like to build 'em.

    tyvm guys!

  3. #23
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilagan800 View Post
    I just figured the positive/negative energy would stack and never gave it a second thought until you guys mentioned it. But, yep they stack.

    Yeah, I always try to add as much sp as I can get through action points and with mental and improved mental toughness. That's just how I like to build 'em.

    tyvm guys!
    An easy way to tell if the sp boosts stack would be to remove all of your spell boosting items. I figure you should have 130 negative spell power, with 80 from cleric and 50 from pale master. Compare that with tier 3 Pale master having 90.

    Just out of curiosity, any idea where the 3 positive spell power comes from on your level 8 pale master?

    Did you use many of the cleric inflict spells for damage? That would probably be the angle i would play with a build like this. That and the wizard enhanced blade barriers. You would also probably want to max out the crit lines for cleric since they affect positive and negative energy. You should get an extra 3% crit chance from pale master.

  4. #24
    Community Member kilagan800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    An easy way to tell if the sp boosts stack would be to remove all of your spell boosting items. I figure you should have 130 negative spell power, with 80 from cleric and 50 from pale master. Compare that with tier 3 Pale master having 90.

    Just out of curiosity, any idea where the 3 positive spell power comes from on your level 8 pale master?

    Did you use many of the cleric inflict spells for damage? That would probably be the angle i would play with a build like this. That and the wizard enhanced blade barriers. You would also probably want to max out the crit lines for cleric since they affect positive and negative energy. You should get an extra 3% crit chance from pale master.
    Pretty close, my negative spell power with items removed is at 110. What gives me the extra 78 points is the Robe of Shadow level 16. And the difference is my main toon wears Robe of Shadow lvl 20 and also uses the Staff of the Necromancer. Without those items my main's Negative Energy is at 90. Go figure lol.

    Yep. I was using the mass inflict spells on mobs and loved using those spells. The first line of inflict spells are touch spells and only used them if things got too close and personal. Sadly I didn't think of maxing out action point crits for pos/neg energy until later on which would've made a bigger difference. At the time I just had rsI and rsII on the mind.

    I used Blade Barrier for a while but traded the spell out for Create Undead because I liked how Mummy Lord paralyzed mobs while the melees hacked through them. If I focused on evocation blade barrier would've been the better spell to take.

    About the 3 positive spell power, i was wondering about that too. It's from the staff, Lightning Rod. It provides a +3 Implement bonus to universal spell power. Yeah, I was wondering about that too, lol.

  5. #25
    Community Member kilagan800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankVulcan View Post
    I think this is a pretty fun idea to be honest....Radiant aura at the same time as Death Aura must look super cool....

    I would suggest dropping the 13th cleric in favor of a monk level. Make use of your unarmed die increase from zombie form.

    My PM life was super fun but i always wished i could use a quickened harm on myself in places like EDQ.

    I hope you enjoy your build.

    Yep, I liked running both auras together, and when in Zombie form an "immune" message rises out of the character along with a blue-ish splash-like flash. It would be interesting to play a zombie monk, I wonder how fast he would hit with haste on him? Hmm, something to ponder.


    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    Personally, I would swap GSF for Quicken. You don't need GSF for Palemaster I, which is all you will get with Wiz7. It helps with other spells, I suppose, but because your ability to overcome SR is so limited, I would recommend trying to focus on direction damage over insta-kills. You can have blade barrier, ice storm, wall of fire, searing light, nimbus of light, frost lance, scorching ray, and a myriad of other direct damage spells that are very SP-efficient at killing things. If you need some measure of cover/crowd control, use spells like obscuring mist or stinking cloud or carry scrolls of cloudkill and solid fog (the latter are hard to get, so maybe try to get clickies). I would also try to work in Maximize Spell and Empower Spell to enhance the potency of your DoTs like burning blood, Melf's acid arrow, and divine punishment.

    Just some thoughts.
    Very good points on GSF, I wasn't thinking that it wouldn't be needed for the level 7 wiz. Thanks for mentioning that! I agree with you on the crowd control, i could've added more of those in my spell slots. I didn't care much for the dps spells outside of Necromancy other than firewall. Frost Lance and Ice Storm would've been great to use as well. The other spells weren't really worth adding once I reached Sands.

    Divine Punishment was one of my favorites. It's extremely effective and works on everything. And it works very well on bosses. I didn't use Burning Blood as much but would certainly use it in the future. It's a necromancy spell so you'd think I'd have it slotted. It would've worked great on the trolls.

    I'm going to play this build again later on. It'll be another first-life build and not a second or more lifer. If I accidentally insinuated it in the op then I apologize. I just meant that I would play this build again. I think it would be very difficult to play this build in a second life, unless you REALLY know what you're doing, lol.

    Thank you very much, I appreciate your info.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I am always happy to see people experiment with builds mixing Divine and Arcane - Always been a fan of the Mystic Theurge but feel the lack of Practiced Spell Caster as a feat has been a problem with this type of build.

    Comments to help maybe fine tune your build...

    1) UMD - Why? Having Access to Divine/Arcane spells means you will use the level Check system not UMD for your ability to cast the spell. Also with Cleric/Wizard levels the highest you can commit is 11.5 at 20 with the .5 being a waste as all fractions are dropped.

    2) .5 on the skills - .5 is dropped at time of checks and only benefits you if you are able to add .5 in the next level. Try to end these skills on a whole number and use the extra point elsewhere

    3) Greater Spell Focus Necromancy - Not needed for PrE. If you use the Necro spells a lot its a good choice to help get a higher DC as Heighten will not get you to Level 9 spell casting. However, I think you would benefit more from Quicken.

    4) Racial Toughness III - Expensive 10 HP are you sure there aren't better ways to spend the 4 APs?

    5) Intelligence vs Wisdom - Why the higher investment in the caster stat of the lower caster class?

    Hi, wow more great info here.

    - I needed the UMD for casting scrolls such as Greater Heroism and Teleport, etc. A lot of the times I was in groups with unprepared wizards who didn't have GH handy or there wasn't a wizard around and I would help assist. I also needed it to use Raise Dead scrolls earlier in the build in case say the cleric died or someone died and the cleric was split from the group. I never played in a group where I was the main healer by the way. A party leader tried doing that on Diplomatic Impunity on elite and I argued with him and but he wouldn't listen so I left the group and told him to find a healer or a hireling. I think at the time I was 7 wiz 3 cleric. That would've been aweful lol.

    - Oops, I never knew about the .5 being dropped, thanks for the tip.

    - Yeah Samthedagger brought that very good point up. I had the same idea about using Quicken and was a little dismayed by not grabbing it sooner. Esch Mat is another feat I regret getting and could've grabbed something more helpful to the build.

    - Well early on I was concerned about not having enough hit points. I always like to reach about 400 hp by level 20 when playing a caster and since this was the first time playing this build I didn't know what to expect. However, playing a build such as this, I want to make sure I use every opprotunity to grab any hp where I can get them. On the other hand maybe I could've used a con +6 item and used the 4 action point elsewhere. Definately something to think about.

    - I agree with you there. It was my fault, I was actually trying to go for the reverse then realized mid-way through that I messed up and was going to end up with a higher intel than wisdom. After spotting the error I tried adding more points to the wisdom stat but sadly I didn't catch the error in time.

    Again, tyvm guys!

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilagan800 View Post
    ...
    Hi, wow more great info here.

    - I needed the UMD for casting scrolls such as Greater Heroism and Teleport, etc. A lot of the times I was in groups with unprepared wizards who didn't have GH handy or there wasn't a wizard around and I would help assist. I also needed it to use Raise Dead scrolls earlier in the build in case say the cleric died or someone died and the cleric was split from the group. I never played in a group where I was the main healer by the way. A party leader tried doing that on Diplomatic Impunity on elite and I argued with him and but he wouldn't listen so I left the group and told him to find a healer or a hireling. I think at the time I was 7 wiz 3 cleric. That would've been aweful lol.

    ...
    I think you misunderstood my point on UMD. Once you take a class, even a single level, that can cast the spell you will no longer make a UMD check using the scroll/wand. You will now make a caster level check.

    The spell appears on the character's spell list at a higher level than he can currently cast, and his overall character level meets the scroll's minimum level.

    This requires a check and may not succeed. The game rolls 1d20 and adds 2x the character's caster level. If the total is at greater than or equal to 2x the level at which he could cast the spell himself, the attempt to use the scroll succeeds. This gives a 95% chance of success if the character is one level short, 85% for two levels, 75% for three, and so on. The scroll is destroyed whether the attempt is successful or not.

    As soon as you took that first level of Cleric UMD would no longer be used for casting Raise Dead scrolls - This is important to understand as it does not use your "Best" score it uses the Caster Level Check.

  7. #27
    Community Member kilagan800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I think you misunderstood my point on UMD. Once you take a class, even a single level, that can cast the spell you will no longer make a UMD check using the scroll/wand. You will now make a caster level check.

    The spell appears on the character's spell list at a higher level than he can currently cast, and his overall character level meets the scroll's minimum level.

    This requires a check and may not succeed. The game rolls 1d20 and adds 2x the character's caster level. If the total is at greater than or equal to 2x the level at which he could cast the spell himself, the attempt to use the scroll succeeds. This gives a 95% chance of success if the character is one level short, 85% for two levels, 75% for three, and so on. The scroll is destroyed whether the attempt is successful or not.

    As soon as you took that first level of Cleric UMD would no longer be used for casting Raise Dead scrolls - This is important to understand as it does not use your "Best" score it uses the Caster Level Check.
    Ahhh okay, I got you now. I was unaware of that, thanks. So UMD on a cleric/wiz build that may rely on higher level scrolls of the same of each class = bad. I did notice that teleport remained at 85% a few levels back and was wondering why, lol. Again thanks!

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