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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    A big apology from the greater majority of the DDO Community ...

    ... and learn how most in the community like to play this game....

    I have found that the majority in the community play to RPG strategies (as DDO is a RPG), which is why you and I came to this game in the first place. The whole "no roles" crowd is a super-small minority in this community...

    i politely and respectfully disagree with your assessment of the game's community. there is a large number of people with some degree of self sufficiency...some people splashing this and that to try and tweak their character to give them fun abilities... then at the far ends of either spectrum you have the minorities... the super-uber power player who's build is tuned to the max for every imaginable outcome who can solo a dungeon with one hand tied behind their back, and at the other end, the dedicated 'role' player who will have a rogue light on the strength but super high intelligence and they never blow a trap, or a cleric without a single offensive spell because they just heal and they hold a mace because of the spell power benefit it gives them.


    Snootch, you fall in the latter category. there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. that is what you enjoy. that is how you enjoy the game. but you are not the majority. and to try to pass yourself off as such in your advice posts is deceptive and detrimental to someone who may want to try a different play-style experience




    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    You have probably already seen players who don't understand better play strategies ("There is no such thing as a back line; the world is flat; and the sun revolves around me. Everyone operating from the back line do not exist."), and you can see how they operate in-game and on the Forums.

    altho in most quests "stand in the back" can be a viable strategy for a static group working as a team in the playstyle you enjoy... i am curious what tactics your team uses when dealing with creatures with random agro and teleportation, like green devils. not an angry challenge of you and your playstyle... just honest curiosity how you handle such a deadly opponent.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    From what I have read, the only people to have responded to the original post properly, stayed on topic, and understood the points were FireLord1230 and StefferWeffer. Check out more of what they have written, as they represent some of the good guys in this community. The other stuff amounts to what you can see with your own eyes: the stuff that brought you to the New Player Advice & Guidance forum in the first place.

    i think i am slightly offended. i have been nothing but nice in this thread, and even agreed with some of your points and expounded upon them. i have given advice to multiple aspiring bards and rogues (my two favorite classes) over the years, both to fill "multi-purpose" role builds and purpose-build specific role builds. please don't lump me in with those you consider 'abusive' simply because i have said "no, i disagree." as i was able to do so with civility and well-made points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    Check out my characters, who are not Anonymous, and learn how most in the community like to play this game...



    no offense intended, but when i check your posts, you have in the past advocated playing a rogue with 8 con, and a barb with 8 str. neither are particularly good ideas, even for a static team that works well together, and it is advice like that which has made you a laughingstock with a large number of posters. please consider that.

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  2. #62
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    Strategy is for the weak. Get some HP and zerg.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    <snip>
    Well said and mostly civil, and +1 to you.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    i politely and respectfully disagree with your assessment of the game's community. there is a large number of people with some degree of self sufficiency...some people splashing this and that to try and tweak their character to give them fun abilities... then at the far ends of either spectrum you have the minorities... the super-uber power player who's build is tuned to the max for every imaginable outcome who can solo a dungeon with one hand tied behind their back, and at the other end, the dedicated 'role' player who will have a rogue light on the strength but super high intelligence and they never blow a trap, or a cleric without a single offensive spell because they just heal and they hold a mace because of the spell power benefit it gives them.


    Snootch, you fall in the latter category. there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. that is what you enjoy. that is how you enjoy the game. but you are not the majority. and to try to pass yourself off as such in your advice posts is deceptive and detrimental to someone who may want to try a different play-style experience







    altho in most quests "stand in the back" can be a viable strategy for a static group working as a team in the playstyle you enjoy... i am curious what tactics your team uses when dealing with creatures with random agro and teleportation, like green devils. not an angry challenge of you and your playstyle... just honest curiosity how you handle such a deadly opponent.






    i think i am slightly offended. i have been nothing but nice in this thread, and even agreed with some of your points and expounded upon them. i have given advice to multiple aspiring bards and rogues (my two favorite classes) over the years, both to fill "multi-purpose" role builds and purpose-build specific role builds. please don't lump me in with those you consider 'abusive' simply because i have said "no, i disagree." as i was able to do so with civility and well-made points.


    [/FONT]


    no offense intended, but when i check your posts, you have in the past advocated playing a rogue with 8 con, and a barb with 8 str. neither are particularly good ideas, even for a static team that works well together, and it is advice like that which has made you a laughingstock with a large number of posters. please consider that.
    This, maybe posts like this will stick in this thread for a couple days.

  5. #65
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    What is the benefit of min-maxing role specialization?

    If I'm a wizard and I give-up that single toughness feat what am I taking instead that optimizes my role as a wizard? as a cleric? as a rogue?

    Min-maxing for other goals (versatility/survivability/top DC/top DPS/top AC) means sacrificing something as we are playing a zero-sum game with respect to stats, we can't roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die to roll our stats.

    I know what I'm giving up when I do a 2 rogue splash on a wizard, or a 2 monk splash on an artificer or taking only 11 ranger levels and I know what I'm gaining in return.

    What do I gain by leaving con at 8 on a cleric, for example? Is it really worth it to not put con at 12 or 14? What static group optimization dynamic am I not hitting with a few build points in con?

    Just speculating, but I'm going to guess the best population to weigh in on this are the experienced permadeath players. Since we can choose our stats and feats and skills the types of builds that have the greatest chances for survival over "generations" would be the most fit builds especially since permadeath generally does not depend on gear, right? or past lives?

  6. #66
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    Snootch, I just wanted you to know that you are totally correct. The fact that the vast majority of forumittes disagree must mean they are wrong and you are correct.

    I, like you, always purchase new products if they have a majority of bad reviews, since everyone must be wrong.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    Snootch, I just wanted you to know that you are totally correct. The fact that the vast majority of forumittes disagree must mean they are wrong and you are correct.

    I, like you, always purchase new products if they have a majority of bad reviews, since everyone must be wrong.
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  8. #68
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    Hi,

    I suspect that this thread won't be read by a lot of new players. But it's still a worthwhile discussion anyway.

    If you are new, something to remember is that Snootch is providing just one perspective on how the game can be played. There are other approaches, some of which are arguably more effective, faster, less dependent on having a certain ideal party mix, and so on. Possibly even more fun.

    My advice is that if you are tempted by Snootch's view of the game that you try it. As you attempt to adhere to his theories of how the game should be played, you will encounter other players who see and do things differently. Then you can decide which approach is best for you.

    Thanks.
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  9. #69
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    kill em with kindness. nothing to complain about if one is perfectly polite ^_^

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  10. #70

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    Most of the advice given in the OP is terrible, in that it will inevitably result in some new player reading it, taking it to heart, and ending up thoroughly frustrated about being repeatedly one-shotted in endgame content. Chances are probably at least even that the player just quits the game at that point.

    Con is not a dump stat. Don't gimp yourself maxing it out on an inappropriate class, and avoid damage when you can if you aren't built to take it, but you will *never* be able to avoid all damage. Hit points exist to serve as a buffer in those circumstances. The more you can reasonably afford, the better. Always.
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  11. #71
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    A big apology from the greater majority of the DDO Community to those new players who want to learn things about how veterans play the game in the New Player Advice & Guidance forum but are then subjected to responses that are off-topic. The experiences you have in-game and on the Forums are related.

    As far as this thread goes, just read the original post, as it describes in detail the differences between Current Hit Points and Maximum Hit Points, as well as some tips on how veteran players operate safely from the back line. I only post what I have done myself and with others, as you can see in all my posts on the Forums. Check out my characters, who are not Anonymous, and learn how most in the community like to play this game. Of course, also understand why the majority of the Community does not waste time on the Forums - see above.

    I have found that the majority in the community play to RPG strategies (as DDO is a RPG), which is why you and I came to this game in the first place. The whole "no roles" crowd is a super-small minority in this community. You have probably already seen players who don't understand better play strategies, and you can see how they operate in-game and on the Forums.

    Play with and learn from better players, especially those who read and comprehend the material that they are supposed to be thinking about, and make sure you stear clear of the bad hearts. After all, D&D games are much better when you actually read and comprehend stuff, as you already know.

    From what I have read, the only people to have responded to the original post properly, stayed on topic, and understood the points were FireLord1230 and StefferWeffer. Check out more of what they have written, as they represent some of the good guys in this community. The other stuff amounts to what you can see with your own eyes: the stuff that brought you to the New Player Advice & Guidance forum in the first place.
    Thanks for making this post slightly less condescending and slightly less insulting to the people who are able to enjoy DDO in ways different than yours.

    One of the nicest things about DDO is that "no roles" is the rule rather than the exception. Not every class can do everything, but every character can do anything - and do it well enough to get by - if the player chooses. DDO really isn't hard enough to need your Tank/DPS/Support triad even if it weren't as amazingly flexible as it is. When players were soloing Epic raids even before the level cap was raised above 20, it becomes obvious that you don't need a team with the Holy Three included. They certainly help with a small subset of DDO's quests and raids, but they aren't necessary by any means.

    Here's the real secret to DDO - jump in and have fun. You'll figure it out on your own without too much trouble and understanding that you gain on your own is going to be so very much more useful than anything that Snootch can try to teach you - even if what Snootch tries to teach were accurate.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    The experiences you have in-game and on the Forums are related.
    This is correct. Most posters however, who you so snidely malign in your posts, provide good solid advice for new players who are looking for information. YOu do a tremendous disservice to people seeking advice by insulting the people who do take the time to provide good solid information that actually heps people learn how to master the complexities of the game.

    Check out my characters, who are not Anonymous, and learn how most in the community like to play this game.
    lol, okies. This observation is based on what?

    I have found that the majority in the community play to RPG strategies (as DDO is a RPG), which is why you and I came to this game in the first place. The whole "no roles" crowd is a super-small minority in this community. You have probably already seen players who don't understand better play strategies, and you can see how they operate in-game and on the Forums.
    Here is where your logic falters. There really is not a "no roles" set in the game. The use of tactics is well establised in this game, and people do follow roles when needed. Whats not happening is that the peope who have taken the time to craft and level multi-faceted characters are not limited to one static role. Unfortunately, in all your advice you negelect to see the benefits in favor of locking players into "roles" based on what suits your style of play.

    Play with and learn from better players, especially those who read and comprehend the material that they are supposed to be thinking about, and make sure you stear clear of the bad hearts. After all, D&D games are much better when you actually read and comprehend stuff, as you already know.
    Pot, kettle, kettle pot. This is some sage advice you yourself should follow. Considering what you offer as advice, its readily apparent you need some tutoring yourself.

    From what I have read, the only people to have responded to the original post properly, stayed on topic, and understood the points were FireLord1230 and StefferWeffer. Check out more of what they have written, as they represent some of the good guys in this community. The other stuff amounts to what you can see with your own eyes: the stuff that brought you to the New Player Advice & Guidance forum in the first place.
    I dont think that this is the case at all. A lot of people responded to this thread offering good solid advice/commentary. Just because you dont like what they said does not mean thats not the case.
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  13. #73
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    From what I have read, the only people to have responded to the original post properly, stayed on topic, and understood the points were FireLord1230 and StefferWeffer.
    Based on their responses I believe you seem to feel the only proper response is one that is in complete agreement with you. Contrary to your beliefs we actually understand what you are attempting to teach new players. Which is exactly why we know it is wrong. Criticism is very much staying on topic.

    I will partially agree with StefferWeffer on the point about green steel items. But his statement about ship buffs is silly as anyone can ask for a ship invite. If you choose not to ask, you have no room to complain that you shouldn't be expected to have them. At the same time though if the person who has access to them does not allow you up, they have no room to complain either. But as to expecting you to have them? There is no sensible reason you cannot have them unless no one is able to give them or you are cannot feasibly do it in time (like jumping into a Shroud and they've already started).
    Last edited by Ryiah; 02-05-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snootch View Post
    A character's Maximum Hit Points are not a matter of life and death. The only thing that Max. HP provides is the ability for a character to survive big hits (either qualitatively or quantitatively) a bit longer so that the party healer can increase his Current HP to a safer level so that he can take even more big hits. That's it. It does not matter if your character's Max. HP is 1,800 or 180 - he will only be alive based on his Current HP (which must be above (-9)).
    Why HP matters to healers.... I should make a post and link it in my sig... Maybe if I flower up my explanation it might get through.

    To illustrate just how wrong you are, let me introduce you to a third HP term. "Healable HP". This is the difference between your "Max HP" and your "Current HP" (with negative numbers being set to zero). As a healer, "Healable HP" is very important to me.

    When the 180 hp wonder takes one solid hit, they are now in the danger zone. It is now time for me to execute my divinely appointed role and increase said 180 hp wonder's hit points to an acceptable level. My heal of choice however far far exceeds that characters "Healable HP". Being a wisdom based role, I fully understand the merits of waste-not-want-not, and I would like to perform my divinely-appointed-shepherd-bot duties in the most efficient manner possible. Unfortunately, the 180 hp wonder does not qualify for efficient use of my most powerful healing tools. It would be nice if I could wait until the "Healable HP" number is a closer match for my healing ability, but unfortunately I must be diligent and protect my 180 hp wonder from the fearful -10 (The number of the soul stone!). Thus I must heal, and I must heal NOW. The lack of "Healable HP" has forced me to make a sub-optimal decision, thus the lack of "Healable HP" has hurt the efficiency of the team, and yay verily has shown character flaw.

    In addition to the character flaw of wastefulness, the 180 hp wonder also lusts after attention, for never more than two hits away are they from the number of the soul stone. Mine eyes cannot turn from watching their red bar because the 180 hp wonder will not flee far from the number of the soul stone. This constant demand for attention comes at the cost of my ability to attend to the other members of my flock, and on occasion even to the detriment of my ability to meditate upon the dangers of my immediate surrounding areas. While focusing upon the tiny red bar, I may not indulge in the time honored divinely traditions of the hack, the slash or the casting of other spells because within the time it takes me to perform such trite rituals, the 180 hp wonder might receive two blessings of damage and find themselves burdened by the number of the soul stone.

    The only benefit of said 180 hp wonder is that on epic elites, they will do the honorable thing and refuse to be a burden upon the healer. At 180 hp, they are never more than half a hit away from the number of the soul stone and very few opponents are kind enough to dole out damage in doses less than a full hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Based on their responses I believe you seem to feel the only proper response is one that is in complete agreement with you. Contrary to your beliefs we actually understand what you are attempting to teach new players. Which is exactly why we know it is wrong. Criticism is very much staying on topic.

    I will partially agree with StefferWeffer on the point about green steel items. But his statement about ship buffs is silly as anyone can ask for a ship invite. If you choose not to ask, you have no room to complain that you shouldn't be expected to have them. At the same time though if the person who has access to them does not allow you up, they have no room to complain either. But as to expecting you to have them? There is no sensible reason you cannot have them unless no one is able to give them or you are cannot feasibly do it in time (like jumping into a Shroud and they've already started).
    This was not a thread about getting booted from a PUG because of low HP. I know there are a lot of those threads out there, but I don't think that was the OPs point. But shortly afterward I think someone may have mentioned the ship buffs and/or guild augments. As a new player, I wouldn't know the first thing about 1) Guilds, 2) Guild Ships, 3) Knowing that higher level guild ships get better stuff, 4) You don't need to be in the guild to use the ship, 5) Finding someone in a big guild to invite you. Now I have 2 level 20 characters and I STILL have never been invited to use someone's ship, NOR do I know how to invite someone onto ours (level 33 I think). Granted, now that I know it exists as an option I can go to wiki and elsewhere and research it further. Same thing with Augment Crystals. Are you saying that you Guild Level 80+ folks make it a habit to invite brand new FTP players into your guilds? If so, that's great, but I rather doubt that most guilds work this way. Our guild is level 33, based on the play of 3 RL friends. I can get a whopping 10more HP with a Crystal right now (and I do try to if I can). That's it. But my main point was that newer players should NOT be expected to extra HPs from that source, because so many new players wouldn't know the first thing about HOW to get invited onto a bountiful guild ship in the first place. That is all I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.
    Last edited by stefferweffer; 02-06-2013 at 08:55 AM.

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    I want to make a follow up point too. As much as I enjoy this game, I believe that it has a STEEP learning curve, and is not very user-friendly to new players. Every day that I am on now, after 4 months of playing, it seems I learn something new. This is gonna seem silly, but the MMO that myself, my wife and son all played for several years (and my son still does) is Sony's Free Realms. I know it is intended for kids, but we found it to be an enjoyable family game until we saw all of the content (which did not take very long). That is an example of game that "kills with kindness" by going overboard on where to go, what to do, etc. This game seems to be on the opposite end (although I'm sure there are even worse offenders).

    I think that this game assumes that this is not the first MMO that someone is trying out, and that someone is accustomed to looking at Forums, Wiki, etc. The tutorial was VERY sparse and basic. And frankly, after that, you're pretty much on your own to learn about all sorts of other things (Grouping, Chat, Guilds, Stats, etc, etc, etc.). Don't get me wrong, Wiki is great, these forums are great, and in-game help is not too bad either. But a person has to know what to ask or what to look for, or even where to look. I guess I just wish there was some big INFORMATION GIANT when you get off the boat in the Harbor, who says something like "What do you want to know?", and then you scroll down a list of dozens of topics. Maybe on the more detailed things he can refer you to the Wiki/Forums, whatever.

    Frankly, if I had not been invited to try this game by RL friends, I would have never made it. I don't have the patience to come to the forums and ask hundreds of questions, or check Wiki every 5 minutes. Those friends showed me how to do most things in this game, even joining me right after the Tutorial. So it makes me wonder how many potential players are out there, who tried the game on Korthos, and got off the boat in Stormreach, were so overwhelmed, and then gave up and went elsewhere. Having my 11 year old son's perspective skews things a little I guess, but I just think this game has a lot of room to grow on accomadating newer players. And again, I DO LIKE THIS GAME.

  18. #78
    Community Member wayreth602's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    This was not a thread about getting booted from a PUG because of low HP. I know there are a lot of those threads out there, but I don't think that was the OPs point. But shortly afterward I think someone may have mentioned the ship buffs and/or guild augments. As a new player, I wouldn't know the first thing about 1) Guilds, 2) Guild Ships, 3) Knowing that higher level guild ships get better stuff, 4) You don't need to be in the guild to use the ship, 5) Finding someone in a big guild to invite you. Now I have 2 level 20 characters and I STILL have never been invited to use someone's ship, NOR do I know how to invite someone onto ours (level 33 I think). Granted, now that I know it exists as an option I can go to wiki and elsewhere and research it further. Same thing with Augment Crystals. Are you saying that you Guild Level 80+ folks make it a habit to invite brand new FTP players into your guilds? If so, that's great, but I rather doubt that most guilds work this way. Our guild is level 33, based on the play of 3 RL friends. I can get a whopping 10more HP with a Crystal right now (and I do try to if I can). That's it. But my main point was that newer players should NOT be expected to extra HPs from that source, because so many new players wouldn't know the first thing about HOW to get invited onto a bountiful guild ship in the first place. That is all I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.
    Ok , just a quick response on the ship invite thing. If you are going to invite somebody to your ship, have them in party, near an airship entrance and right click on their name in their status bar and invite them.

    On Cannith, most of the PUGs I run with don't offer ship buffs, but if asked will give invites then ask if anyone else needs one.

    In fact, one person offering an invite apologized for only being in a level 53 guild so her ship wasn't the best.

  19. #79
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    Default find the happy point and run with it.

    To those pushing the idea that healers and "behind the lines" characters do not need hps let me add my voice in opposition.

    In proof I offer the below image.

    A bit of explanation: I know this image is from a long long time ago but it is still relevant today almost 7 years later. I was not engaged in melee, doing nothing to garner agro and a wolf made a beeline for me and tripped me just in time for a Mob flame strike, not aimed at me but at someone within splash damage range, to burn me almost to a cinder.

    You can never have too little hitpoints. Issues come up when you sacrifice too much to get more hitpoints. You need to find the happy medium between survivability and functionality. Once YOU find that point, stick to it and be happy.



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    please don't lump me in with those you consider 'abusive' simply because i have said "no, i disagree." as i was able to do so with civility and well-made points.

    [/FONT]
    I think you misunderstood the OP. based on my reading, and previous posts by this person, I am pretty sure his intent was to point out that disagreeing with him is, in and of itself, abusive.

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