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Thread: ED suggestion!!

  1. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You don't seem to know how TRing works. You have to start over at level 1 and level back up. No amount of +5 lesser/greater hearts will let you be level 20, stay level 20, and get a Past Life. Only dumping your power and starting over at level 1 works. If you are not under any circumstance levelling anything, either you don't have a past life, or you are level 1.
    Feel free to ignore the fact that we're talking about how a lesser works and knock that straw man down. It's clear about my comment that Im talking ONLY about that once you hit level whatever you're not re-levelling anything by using a lesser. Just re-arranging the deck chairs.

  2. #342
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Oh. My. Goodness. I can't process the amount of nonsense I've just read in the last couple of pages...It's just too much. You guys are even ignoring at least 2 good alternative suggestions people provided you with (and I've agreed with pages ago) just to keep up your doomed crusade. Don't get me wrong, it's still hilarious, but I do feel a little bad for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen.

    Why would anyone choose to play a game that maintains an xp/fun balance. Xp should be fun.

    Why would a game not being fun, for anyone, not be a failure on the part of the games design? That's like saying that jalapeno and anchovie ice cream not selling is a failure on the part of nearly everyone's taste buds, not on the part of the ice cream maker. A game designer should strive to make their game fun for all players, anything short of that is a degree of failure on their part, not on the part of those who don't find it fun. Giving options for me to level my EDs using the abilities I've already earned and that fit my character as well as giving you the option to fast track it by playing a character without those abilities in order for both of us to have fun seems like a lot less of a failure than giving you the option to do things your way and me the option to just not want to play to me.
    There are some options in this game. You can have fun and gather xp slowly, by running different quests, be it heroic or epic. Or you can gather xp in the most efficient way possible by farming stuff. That is the xp/fun balance I'm talking about. What you want is the definition of easy button. You have to work even in a game if you want the best result. BTW, to some people best result = maximum fun, even if it takes hard work to achieve. Welcome to MMOs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Personally, what you suggest makes a lot more sense that what the devs gave us. I really don't understand the popularity of having to, effectively, reroll a perfectly good character and start over at the beginning to make progress.

    But then Tring is more a way of avoiding end game than a system that supposedly represents it, so easy enough to simply ignore.
    Same as above. "I have the best fun playing a completionist, but I have no fun at all grinding through all the lives! I want it now! Deeeevs!!!"

    This is no straw man, and my TR analogy is NOT a straw man either. I don't need a straw man to pulverize an argument that hardly stands by itself. To the ones claiming the opposite, google it, look it up on wiki or something, could be of some help.

    The suggestions of being able to select you ED more freely are nice. So is the suggestion of adding more abilities interacting with more classes to EDs (but not twist-level ones, just fairly nice ones), so that it's more fun to level off EDs. You shouldn't be ignoring those, they are your best chance...
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk View Post
    Because then you wouldn't have any reason to either explore or experience the line you were putting experience in. Part of benefit in leveling a non-mainline destiny is getting to try out things you'd normally find out of your comfort zone and incorporate them into your playstyle. Besides which it sort of makes a joke out of the whole concept of gaining ED exerience (which comes from usage) since you would'nt be actually gaining any experience in using the elements of the ED you're conferring points towards.
    The system that forces players to move through unrelated destinies to get to one's they want as well as having to do so to get the fate points to twist things from those unrelated destinies already makes a joke out of the system.

  4. #344
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Feel free to ignore the fact that we're talking about how a lesser works and knock that straw man down. It's clear about my comment that Im talking ONLY about that once you hit level whatever you're not re-levelling anything by using a lesser. Just re-arranging the deck chairs.
    Your suggestion has nothing to do with proxy-leveling with a lesser. You want to proxy-level like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Devs, I enjoy playing my current AA build so much. It's really fun and enojable. I have fun enjoying playing it.

    But I also happen to want more Past Lives, maybe even completionist: it would make it more enjoyable. Oh the joy! How can I get those Past Lives while still playing the lv 25 build I have so much fun playing?

    I have an idea! Since the xp I'd be getting at cap is going down the sink anyway, can we take 50% of that xp and add to my Past-Life-XP-Bank? So I'm still getting just half the xp a lv 24- is getting: it's a limitation to me, because I could always TR and get the full xp, right?

    So please give me this limitation so I can keep playing my favourite class at cap, and meanwhile, slowly but steadily, gather the xp for my past lives.
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Your suggestion has nothing to do with proxy-leveling with a lesser. You want to proxy-level like this:
    No, we're beyond that, and have been for a while...please move on.
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  6. #346
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazston_the_Invoker View Post
    No, we're beyond that, and have been for a while...please move on.
    But... but...I still see him talking +5 hearts, and TRs being a straw man...don't tell me, tell him! :P
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  7. #347
    Hero Yazston_the_Invoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    But... but...I still see him talking +5 hearts, and TRs being a straw man...don't tell me, tell him! :P
    Different argument...bit of a misunderstanding on a couple of our parts, but I am sure we can get on the same page now, of making suggestions...of which I don't really have any more, but I DO have a boatload of good intentions!
    Yazston the Invoker, Nyyarlathotep, Thongo Stonesplitter, Stumpvvater Jack, Iaug Sothoth, Egostu Theman, Hastuur D'Rlyeh,
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  8. #348
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazston_the_Invoker View Post
    Different argument...bit of a misunderstanding on a couple of our parts, but I am sure we can get on the same page now, of making suggestions...of which I don't really have any more, but I DO have a boatload of good intentions!
    Yeah^^ Well as I said I think being able to jump from one destiny to another with less restrictions than now would be ok.

    And I like the idea of making the off destinies more enjoyable to every class by some more useful yet not top notch abilities friendly to "opposite" classes (like some more melee abilities on caster destinies etc.) I personally don't really feel the need for this last part, but I can understand if people do. I've had a lot of fun in EVERY destiny on my main but just because it's a build that has a caster, melee AND ranged in it, so obviously worked with everything...

    My tank can't really use much stuff from Magister for example (although +6 relex + 3 dodge and one of the sigils are actually good for tanks), but it's not like my fun dies and I won't run magister in regular content on my tank I guess there can be destinies that have nothing in common with certain builds...that could probably be adressed.

    However, while I do agree with those suggestions, I've also said that destinies can be improved, but they are not actually bad enough to be a priority on dev's to do list...imho.
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  9. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Your suggestion has nothing to do with proxy-leveling with a lesser. You want to proxy-level like this:
    You can trust me on this - I know much better what I argue for then anyone else. Hint; it's not about what I'm telling you to believe - it's what I believe. Feel free to provide a counter argument about what you personally think but as soon as you use the magic words 'you want' then you can skip the rant. What you think I want and is not what I state is irrelevant and a straw man argument.

    Your sarcastic suggestion about what you think I'm trying to say is amusing but more in a point and laugh at, rather then spot on sarcasm 'dude you got me' type.

    At this point the rest of us seems to have moved onto the basics of adding to the suggestions instead of indulging in your fantasy about others. You can stay there of course but it's pointless as far as I'm concerned.

  10. #350
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Can we stop bickering like lil kids. The whirpooling arguments are OLD. Please look at the suggestions in the thread and talk about them I have seen a couple that would make both sides happy I even linked one in OG OP, but all you guys want to do is stomp feet and say I am right no I am and you are a straw man argument user no it's not blah blah blah....

    Let's move on to the suggestions please.
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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Why should you get rewarded for something you didn't do? That's what this boils down to. Proxy leveling is a slippery slope and people who want to do that have no argument (at least not one that's actually been stated here) for why they should get rewarded for NOT DOING SOMETHING... Caps for emphasis not emotion
    I can agree with this. Proxy leveling isn't the best answer, just one the devs might consider. The best answer would be to scrape most of the system we have and let players gain fate points in a manner that doesn't make them take 5 steps back and tread water while grinding them. Let me play the character I like to play to gain the fate points and open up twists, after all this is the template I want to improve with those twists. Then maybe let me go earn those abilities I want to twist while playing in the ED they come from.

    Keep the amount of grind the same, just don't make me do most of it with a character I don't want to play.

  12. #352
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    It would be nice to see a dev posting the official reason behind the current system, to see if we missed something. I think at this point this thread could have their attention^^

    @patang01: no doubt you know what you think/want better than I do. But what you appear to be asking for - that's a whole different story.
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  13. #353

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I can agree with this. Proxy leveling isn't the best answer, just one the devs might consider. The best answer would be to scrape most of the system we have and let players gain fate points in a manner that doesn't make them take 5 steps back and tread water while grinding them. Let me play the character I like to play to gain the fate points and open up twists, after all this is the template I want to improve with those twists. Then maybe let me go earn those abilities I want to twist while playing in the ED they come from.

    Keep the amount of grind the same, just don't make me do most of it with a character I don't want to play.
    Yeah, this is probably the best way to go.

    Like how right now we have two different XP bars we can toggle between -- epic & destiny -- add a third bar for twists and have twist xp work exactly like destiny does now: Regardless if you're capped or not in epic/destiny xp, you still earn twist xp until twists are capped.

    In the current system on live, you get your first fate point at 720k and your last (18th) at 16,080,000 if you level in the absolute most efficient way possible for maximizing fate points per xp. Set the first point at 720k, the 18th anywhere from 16m to 20m, and scale all the ones in between on whatever curve makes the most sense.

    This would appease those of us asking for the ability to grind out fate points while our main destiny is active and also throw in a nice concession to the other side of aisle in that you'd end up with 18 fate points but nothing to put in your shiny twist slots unless you actually changed your active destiny to go earn them.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The point is, the system is set up in such a way as to promote farming. It's real cool at the start, at least for those characters that are allowed to start in their chosen ED. You play the game and build your character and things make sense. It's when you finish your chosen ED that things get weird. At that point in order to put on a few finishing touches you have to abandon most of the ED you actually want to center your character around (at this point you have 1 fate point, so can twist in one bottom tier ability from that ED) and spend up to 10 times as long leveling up other EDs, mostly just for the sake of the twist points.
    This is why I believe the current method of doing it doesn't really go along with the spirit of the idea. I think it's safe to say that there will be a desired ED for a given toon. Nothing says that the player has to have all of the epic destinies on the toon's first go-around. In fact, it seems that doing it that way involves spending a substantial amount of time in a state of "less fun" while leveling non-optimal EDs. So what if you TR and take a class that will have for its optimal ED one of the ones that is going to be available because of maxing out the first one? Then you get to spend all of your time in the optimal ED, and by the time you finish that second class, you have 3 fate points. You'll also have more EDs unlocked for another life in a different class, where you'll level a third ED, still spending 100% of your time in the optimal ED for the toon, and will be up to 5 fate points.

    It is my opinion that the intention of the game's design is to support what I have outlined above. It certainly fits better with my memories of pnp D&D, antiquated as they may be.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is just possible that the game is set up correctly, but people would rather bend it to fit them than adapt to the way it intrinsically works.

    Obviously, anyone has the option of doing all of the EDs in one whack, but I don't think you then get to kvetch that it isn't as fun to do so. Go into it with the knowledge that there is a fast way, and a fun way, but they are most certainly two distinct things.

  15. #355

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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    @patang01: no doubt you know what you think/want better than I do. But what you appear to be asking for - that's a whole different story.
    Drop it. Maybe your clueless or something but this is reaching dumb levels. Let me be frank; I'm an adult. Been that for a while. Stop the BS kiddie ****. I've said please so no need to be polite.

  16. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin_dude View Post
    This is why I believe the current method of doing it doesn't really go along with the spirit of the idea. I think it's safe to say that there will be a desired ED for a given toon. Nothing says that the player has to have all of the epic destinies on the toon's first go-around. In fact, it seems that doing it that way involves spending a substantial amount of time in a state of "less fun" while leveling non-optimal EDs. So what if you TR and take a class that will have for its optimal ED one of the ones that is going to be available because of maxing out the first one? Then you get to spend all of your time in the optimal ED, and by the time you finish that second class, you have 3 fate points. You'll also have more EDs unlocked for another life in a different class, where you'll level a third ED, still spending 100% of your time in the optimal ED for the toon, and will be up to 5 fate points.

    It is my opinion that the intention of the game's design is to support what I have outlined above. It certainly fits better with my memories of pnp D&D, antiquated as they may be.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is just possible that the game is set up correctly, but people would rather bend it to fit them than adapt to the way it intrinsically works.

    Obviously, anyone has the option of doing all of the EDs in one whack, but I don't think you then get to kvetch that it isn't as fun to do so. Go into it with the knowledge that there is a fast way, and a fun way, but they are most certainly two distinct things.
    They did compound the errors by first cementing you in a circle (fair enough), then create a system of mindless grind ontop of a diminishing pool of XP due to penalty for re-running the few upper level quests there are and if they banked on people resetting through TRing then they blew it by forcing people to continue from where you left off. So they instead promote farming XP through the few not WAI quests.

    I know they added a few items to give people the opportunity to move around a little bit more, but there's no chance I will ever spend a dime of my money on naked money grab like that. Not when the incentive is a chin kick or 'deal with our system' type feeling.

  17. #357

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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin_dude View Post
    So what if you TR and take a class that will have for its optimal ED one of the ones that is going to be available because of maxing out the first one?
    I agree that this is the intent of the current design. Notably, planning out a completionist order to match up with each next destiny, and playing each life as pure or mostly pure and then maxing that class's destiny before tring to the next life sound fun to me. (The planning of it, I mean.)

    However, not everyone wants to TR, and fewer still want a completionist. All of my main alts (except the dedicated challenge farmer) have TRed, but with the lone exception of the cleric doing wizard lives I have zero desire to tr them into any other class. My pally will always be a pally, my ranger will always be a ranger, and my wizard will likely always be a wizard. (Might do FVS for spell pen, but doubtful.) I may very well TR them more than 3 times despite getting no additional benefit, but merely because occassionally re-leveling from 1 to 20 is fun for me.

  18. #358

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I agree that this is the intent of the current design. Notably, planning out a completionist order to match up with each next destiny, and playing each life as pure or mostly pure and then maxing that class's destiny before tring to the next life sound fun to me. (The planning of it, I mean.)

    However, not everyone wants to TR, and fewer still want a completionist. All of my main alts (except the dedicated challenge farmer) have TRed, but with the lone exception of the cleric doing wizard lives I have zero desire to tr them into any other class. My pally will always be a pally, my ranger will always be a ranger, and my wizard will likely always be a wizard. (Might do FVS for spell pen, but doubtful.) I may very well TR them more than 3 times despite getting no additional benefit, but merely because occassionally re-leveling from 1 to 20 is fun for me.
    I don't mind TRing - but using gimmicks and lesser to trick things is such pedestrian way of doing things and having to plan my TR to optimize the levelling of a destiny is an awful incentive for people to spend time and money. I'm hoping that the devs will realize that there is money to made with a different system 'cause other then the exploit of the shears I can't think a lot of players 'invest' money it this mess. Maybe I'm wrong. But so far I haven't heard a majority endorsement of how things work.

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    This really is an argument of "I want stuff, that is totally outside of how games like this usually work, tell me why I shouldn't have it" and when someone correctly points out that leveling one thing without even playing that thing is contrary to the core game pholosophy of the type of game we're playing, they simply repeat: Why should I have to do something unfun, when I can do something fun, and get rewards for something I didn't do.
    I must have just played the wrong games then. Because I wouldn't call putting things aside even temporarily (EDs) much less permanently until you re-earn them (TRing) as the way most games do things. They generally let you keep those things and progress from there. Though I have spent enough years working factory production lines to know that sort of unsatisfying activity is the norm there. Finish your task, then immediately pass it on to do the exact same thing over again.

    Also. I would stop at "why should I do something unfun?" and leave it at that. I mean by simply not logging in it would seem I come out ahead if doing so is going to be "unfun".

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Your point of view might be that you just give an option to level EDs while having more fun. You need to understand, however, that some people would continue to farm RB AND would be getting extra ED xp while playing their main ED.
    Sounds like they might actually have more fun that way. So how is that a bad thing?

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