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Thread: ED suggestion!!

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    To the player POV the grinds are not necessary and senseless. To a business POV however, the "too much grind" serves a purpose you see. How would they ever be able to sell you grind mitigation if the grind is perfectly acceptable to you in the first place? So when players complain about "senseless grind" this is no longer a negative feedback, but a red flag to the marketing team that Turbine needs to implement a way to make you pay to make the grind acceptable again. What players call "senseless" the business calls "WAI". This issue will be resolved the same way you resolved the bard past life issue - go to ye olde TP shoppe and BAM, more tolerable grind.
    This is true to a degree, but if you go too far or make the "solution" too expensive then it drives paying customers away from you all together. It's a bit of a delicate balancing act I think.

    The TR hearts are the best example of good balance to me. You can grind out 20 epic tokens, or just buy them in store. If they made the grind option 200 then people would get ****ed and resent paying for the hearts because the grind is near impossible. On the other hand if you only required 2 TR tokens no one would pay because it would be too easy to grind out 2 tokens. So they picked a number they thought would be just challenging enough a large number of people would say "the hell with it, I'll just buy one" and feel good about their choice. (Personally I think they could have gotten away with 40 for the same effect, but its hard to know that number up front)

  2. #122
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I know it's been argued already, but I see no difference between wanting to get 50% XP for a ED you're not using, and wanting to get 50% XP towards barbarian while I play the Wizzy or FvS I enjoy playing much more.

    How'd you get completionist?
    Oh man it was a long haul, I had to TR into a Wiz 3 extra times to get barbarian and Fighter and Paladin over with, because I hate playing those.

    How'd you max your twists?
    Oh man is was a long haul I had to play my favorite ED three times longer, to get the three ED's I want twists from.

    Admitedly I think they should totally remove the requirement to "travel through the tree" maxing out one destiny just so you can get to a destiny that has a twist you want.

    But that said I believe it's part of the oppotunity cost to be extremely powerful, by having 3 very powerful boosts/abilities that have no relation to your choosen main ED. As I said already, the main problem is they have crunched what looks like 10 Epic levels worth of ED's down into 5 Epic levels.

    I really think people are better off just having fun and letting stuff happen when it happens... people who make themselves hate the game because they feel they have to level a pointless ED to get to another ED that they have to level to get ONE TWIST, that adds 5/10/15 PRR (or something like 1/2/3% damage mitigation) do need to look at themselves a little. Do you NEED it? Or are you obsessing over something blowing up it's importance in your mind, and making your play time suck?
    I will just have to agree to disagree on the TR comparison to ED. They are really two different monsters and can argue all day with counter arguments and get nowhere.

    People like to min/max and that is there fun. Some just like to play and get there when they get there. Some want the best, but because of the non-fun factor they just don't do it.

    With this suggestion, going back to the analogy I used earlier. It is like asking for more work in a better work environment.

    That doesn't seem like a easy button to me. It also helps those people who have done all they want in twists because really as you said working for that 3% extra DR isn't worth the grind, and have capped destiny and character it gives them a chance not to lose that xp and slowly advance there characters at a loss. It makes it so you aren't just at a dead stop on making yourself better.(which can kill someones want to play)
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  3. #123
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    I'm trying to say the color is "gray" because the world and it's issues exist in nuanced space. You and others are trying to say that I am saying "black".
    Nope. In fact, if you review my posting history, you will see many instances where I post that its an argument of degree and not an argument of absolute. Youre preaching to the choir here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    What is being suggested is a reasonable response to having to grind in what I call "senseless"-and people feel free to disagree, no harm no foul- time suck that is not really enjoyable for the majority of the time. For me and a lot of others. Disagreement is fine, but "lazy" "easy button" and the like serve no purpose here except to halt thinking. Thinking outside of the box is tough for some folks.
    And that "box" youre accusing people of not being able to think outside of is the player POV. When you think outside that box, you realize the color is not gray at all, its GREEN. Look at the business POV here, this "unreasonable grind" youre continually citing, is actually intended design...and WAI at that - and the heavy complaining on the forums is the indicator that it is indeed WAI. The more the forumites complain about unreasonable grind, the more we are indicating the intended design is working. Once the complaining starts its only a matter of time before a new item (or in this case a less exploitable item) gets put into the store to allow people to pay for more tolerable grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    The suggestion that there be an allowance of rollover XP with the caveat of losing some of the xp, is perfectly reasonable to me and does not beg nor warrant another deluge of "P2W" propaganda. We've heard it loud and clear by now, thank you for your patronage.
    And you get to hear all about p2w again, at the same frequency "too much grind" gets complained about, because the reality of the situation is that they arent looking for a way to change the game to lessen the grind according to what you me or anyone else feels is reasonable, they are looking for a way to sell you the ability to mitigate the "too much grind" they purposely designed into the game. Get used to it, because this is the new model for how the game is financed. Because you see, whats "unreasonable" from a player perspective, is completely rea$onable from a business perspective.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-30-2013 at 03:25 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Everyone gets advantages from levelling every ED. Fate Points, as you mention, are the obvious one. But if people are a little creative, you can get good use out of any destiny.

    As for "on the path", it's just like a caster who wants an extra +2 to their main casting stat has to get a Monk past life even though they don't care about +1 melee damage? Monk, Fighter, etc., are the only way to get Completionist.
    Again, you are using a, IMO, flawed system to justify the flaws in another system.



    I do.
    What would that problem be?

  5. #125
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Here's the difference.

    While you might not enjoy ever class during your completionist run, every class you play as a completionist will be a functional version of that class (unless you for some reason choose to gimp yourself). So you might not like rogues, but in your rogue life you will be a fully functional rogue that can contribute as much as any other character of your level.

    The same is not true of ED. While levelling your sorc through a shadowdancer's life they get.... well ****. You can be a L25 Sorc who can't touch what a L20 in "the right ED" can do, or what a L20 rogue can do in shadowdancer. That's bonkers. You need to deliberately make yourself a gimp for a LONG time, that's just not true in completionist.
    Umm... i make awful paladins and barbarians, so ill have to gimp myself for a long time to get completionist. (my bards arent that good either)

  6. #126
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    This is true to a degree, but if you go too far or make the "solution" too expensive then it drives paying customers away from you all together. It's a bit of a delicate balancing act I think.

    The TR hearts are the best example of good balance to me. You can grind out 20 epic tokens, or just buy them in store. If they made the grind option 200 then people would get ****ed and resent paying for the hearts because the grind is near impossible. On the other hand if you only required 2 TR tokens no one would pay because it would be too easy to grind out 2 tokens. So they picked a number they thought would be just challenging enough a large number of people would say "the hell with it, I'll just buy one" and feel good about their choice. (Personally I think they could have gotten away with 40 for the same effect, but its hard to know that number up front)
    The raid bypass is also a good example because even though it cant be had in game, its cheap - which gets people hooked into buying them either in bulk, or justifying buying them more often to get to their 20th completion list faster.

    The big picture balancing act is how much of this are people willing to tolerate in total combination. If they are paying for a bypass to get into the raid, then paying to get the XP in the destiny they want, after they paid to add more fate points, after they paid to stock up on mana potions, how long do they keep doing that before they do the same and say "the hell with it" I will just have 2 powerful toons rather than dealing with all these alts, because grinding out what I want on all my alts doesnt fit into my time schedule, and paying that much doesnt fit into my budget.

    This line is also hard to draw because its different for every person. What we do know from social games and other microtransaction MMOs is its a very small (1-3%) of folks who are the heavy spenders, then the light spenders and nonspenders each share roughly half the demographic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #127
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Umm... i make awful paladins and barbarians, so ill have to gimp myself for a long time to get completionist. (my bards arent that good either)
    Just because you make gimps is not a good argument against
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  8. #128
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Just because you make gimps is not a good argument against
    Neither is others making gimp EDs

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The raid bypass is also a good example because even though it cant be had in game, its cheap - which gets people hooked into buying them either in bulk, or justifying buying them more often to get to their 20th completion list faster.
    Good example. That one works because there is immediate gratification and it truely is "mircro" in value, and yet it isn't seen as a "manditory" fee they might resent because, "well I could just wait three days like I always have". The AD Shard purchases of feat respecs work that way too. I'm actually a sucker for those small fees, I look at them and think, "eh, its only 95cents" and I spend it. I'm much more likely to buy 50 $1 raid bypass timers than 1 $50 set of +4 tomes.

    The big picture balancing act is how much of this are people willing to tolerate in total combination. If they are paying for a bypass to get into the raid, then paying to get the XP in the destiny they want, after they paid to add more fate points, after they paid to stock up on mana potions, how long do they keep doing that before they do the same and say "the hell with it" I will just have 2 powerful toons rather than dealing with all these alts, because grinding out what I want on all my alts doesnt fit into my time schedule, and paying that much doesnt fit into my budget.

    This line is also hard to draw because its different for every person. What we do know from social games and other microtransaction MMOs is its a very small (1-3%) of folks who are the heavy spenders, then the light spenders and nonspenders each share roughly half the demographic.
    Yeah, I think you are right there as well. A millionaire will be more tollerant of charges (and prehaps more sensitive to the value of their time) than your sterotypical broke student.

    They need to put up enough of a headache to be worth bypassing by the big spenders and some of the mid/small range spenders, without completely alienating any of the groups (including the small spenders, who do add up in through quantity of them even if each purchase is smaller).

    I also think traditional MMO players are different than those for whom DDO has been their only real MMO. In a number of threads people say "well all MMOs do that" while others say "I don't care, that's dumb, they shouldn't", and the difference is experienced based I think. So, some fees, like the expansion, will be reacted to differently by different groups.

    And can I say thank you for the language you are now using in your posts. It allows your point to come across more clearly and promotes good conversations

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    I disagree.... The whoel idea of experience points is that you're gaining experience in a particular craft, and as you do so you gain the benefits of that class.

    But.. Coming to a DDO store near you... LOL
    And the whole idea of developing video games is for the players to earn that xp while doing something they consider fun. Contrary to what the masochists who believe in a no pain no gain philosophy seem to think, overcoming pain isn't the only way of having fun.

  11. #131
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Neither is others making gimp EDs
    Was kinda of a poke at your response, but since you went there will make a reply.

    You don't make gimp ED you are forced to go through them if you want to get to the ones you want. Compared to you sucking at making certain builds. That is completely different than being forced, than you just having no skill in making a build.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Question; have you played say a sorc on a fighter destiny? Or a Wiz on a rogue? Have you noticed something relative to playing ML 23+ quests? That for example you need the DC enhancements in the draconic or wiz destiny to break reflex saves and things like that even on Normal?
    I played as a Sorc on ALL other destines BEFORE doing Draconic Incarnation. While keeping my Elite Streak intact. I maxxed out all destinies on my Sorc life, through playing the game, with very little Rusted farming. This was on a WF with no previous Sorc lives. I wasn't build for spell pen or CC DCs, but I could do spell DPS just fine, thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    And asking your char to level in Legendary and still remain useful as a caster is like playing level 20 quests with a level 15 sorc. You can, but it won't be pretty.
    No, because no matter what destiny you're in, you still have all your same level 20 caster stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    We're forced to level in destinies that are counter productive to classes just to unlock fate points to twist.
    Forced just as much as people are forced to go triple-completionist.

    You can have a viable character on a first life, with only one destiny. If you want to grind for more, go for it, but nobody is forcing you.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    We're forced to work from one end to the map to the other, why I don't know
    Hey, I actually agree that this is kind of silly. Letting people start with whatever destiny they want instead of locking it to their class would make more sense to me, since, though they were supposed to be "inspired" by a class, EDs were also supposed to be general enough for other classes, too. Too bad they fell short in so many other ways, too.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope. In fact, if you review my posting history, you will see many instances where I post that its an argument of degree and not an argument of absolute. Youre preaching to the choir here.
    wurd.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And that "box" youre accusing people of not being able to think outside of is the player POV. When you think outside that box, you realize the color is not gray at all, its GREEN. Look at the business POV here, this "unreasonable grind" youre continually citing, is actually intended design...and WAI at that - and the heavy complaining on the forums is the indicator that it is indeed WAI. The more the forumites complain about unreasonable grind, the more we are indicating the intended design is working. Once the complaining starts its only a matter of time before a new item (or in this case a less exploitable item) gets put into the store to allow people to pay for more tolerable grind.
    This is a fine dance. Due to the amount of content that is available, a certain amount of grind is actually mutually beneficial.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And you get to hear all about p2w again, at the same frequency "too much grind" gets complained about, because the reality of the situation is that they arent looking for a way to change the game to lessen the grind according to what you me or anyone else feels is reasonable, they are looking for a way to sell you the ability to mitigate the "too much grind" they purposely designed into the game. Get used to it, because this is the new model for how the game is financed. Because you see, whats "unreasonable" from a player perspective, is completely rea$onable from a business perspective.

    Again, I'm not complaining about the grind per se. It's the grind in sub-optimal and worse ED's. The grind would actually be longer but more enjoyable. Fun is the name of the game I think is how it goes.

  14. #134
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    No need to be insulting. Most of those capable of rational thought think, and make all kinds of conclusions. Claiming your way to be the ultimate is nothing short of foolish. I dont think the game should be made easier, yes. You wish it to be. If i started desiring the game to be much harder (which i really wouldnt mind) youd be up in arms. Your fun and mine are different. You wish to get yur EDs easier, i want the game to have more challenge.

    I dont go around demanding my end, why do you? Being a ratioanl being i realize that there are different kinds of fun, i just dont want the game to be made so easy that it loses whatever challenge it has.
    Care to offer any sort of support for your contention that anyone is asking for the game to be easier? Of course not, because no one has said anything about easy. You just want to puff up your chest and thump it with your fists posturing as a skilled, veteran pro player in a game that absolutely everything is attainable through easy repetitive grinding.

    There is nothing hard button about face rolling house of rusted blades hundreds of times.

    1. Run in and oil rack
    2. DDoor
    3. Run in and jump on bell
    4. Ring bell
    5. Kill boss
    6. DDoor
    7. Grab window
    8. Repeat 450 times


    Where's the hard button in that again?

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    As ive said, the "hard" does not mean "difficult", it means "requiring work".

    Just to make an real life example: What do you think your boss would say if you went in to him and told him you want to spend your workdays making paper flowers, instead of actually doing the job youre paid for. That is what i think of the "lets make EDs easier to get" kind of thing.
    How does actually being able to use the abilities you have already earned and that fit your build while expanding on them equate to not "requiring work"?

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I think you didnt understand me. Its the fact that you can get the xp while doing something else that annoys me with this idea. To me its sort of like well, tasing icecream and getting paid for being a lawyer.
    This makes it sound to me that you think all content should have a check box ask which of the following you want to earn; Loot, xp, renown or favor. Being able to get them all means you aren't doing enough work while playing this game.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    To the player POV the grinds are not necessary and senseless. To a business POV however, the "too much grind" serves a purpose you see. How would they ever be able to sell you grind mitigation if the grind is perfectly acceptable to you in the first place? So when players complain about "senseless grind" this is no longer a negative feedback, but a red flag to the marketing team that Turbine needs to implement a way to make you pay to make the grind acceptable again. What players call "senseless" the business calls "WAI". This issue will be resolved the same way you resolved the bard past life issue - go to ye olde TP shoppe and BAM, more tolerable grind.
    Unless it turns around and bites them when players start going to ye olde internet to look for something new to play that doesn't assume they are that gullible. But then, maybe enough simply are.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I know it's been argued already, but I see no difference between wanting to get 50% XP for a ED you're not using, and wanting to get 50% XP towards barbarian while I play the Wizzy or FvS I enjoy playing much more.

    How'd you get completionist?
    Oh man it was a long haul, I had to TR into a Wiz 3 extra times to get barbarian and Fighter and Paladin over with, because I hate playing those.

    How'd you max your twists?
    Oh man is was a long haul I had to play my favorite ED three times longer, to get the three ED's I want twists from.

    Admitedly I think they should totally remove the requirement to "travel through the tree" maxing out one destiny just so you can get to a destiny that has a twist you want.

    But that said I believe it's part of the oppotunity cost to be extremely powerful, by having 3 very powerful boosts/abilities that have no relation to your choosen main ED. As I said already, the main problem is they have crunched what looks like 10 Epic levels worth of ED's down into 5 Epic levels.

    I really think people are better off just having fun and letting stuff happen when it happens... people who make themselves hate the game because they feel they have to level a pointless ED to get to another ED that they have to level to get ONE TWIST, that adds 5/10/15 PRR (or something like 1/2/3% damage mitigation) do need to look at themselves a little. Do you NEED it? Or are you obsessing over something blowing up it's importance in your mind, and making your play time suck?
    You are coming off as not really understanding what getting twists entails. Just leveling the ED's that contain those twists wont earn you the twist points needed to actually use them. Even 3 level 1 twists requires 6 twist points or 18 levels in ED's. So would be just barely covered by leveling one's chosen ED as well as completing another full ED and 4 levels in two others. Becoming "extremely powerful" by twisting in something above that means leveling EDs with nothing you even consider worth twisting simply to get the ability to slot those things you do. So no, it's not spending 3 times as long, it's spending up to 10 times as long, or 20 times as long if the suggested penalties are added. Not to mention there is no bonus for doing all EDs like completionist is for TRs.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Neither is others making gimp EDs
    It's how they designed the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Was kinda of a poke at your response, but since you went there will make a reply.

    You don't make gimp ED you are forced to go through them if you want to get to the ones you want. Compared to you sucking at making certain builds. That is completely different than being forced, than you just having no skill in making a build.
    What I was thinking. Like adding the Peasant class just to make all aspiring completionists pike a life.

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