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Thread: ED suggestion!!

  1. #441

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    the request is for 50% XP towards destinies you're not actually using
    No, it isn't. That isn't what people are requesting now.


    Some of your ideas are interesting, if unrelated to this thread. In your example, I'd like to see the choice for the tier 3 exalted angel autogrant be wings or aura, take your pick. I bet there's some FVS who wouldn't mind having aura.

    I don't care how many melee bonuses you give casters, I'm not going to equip my casters with melee weapons just for destiny abilities. I have melee alts for when I want to melee. On my casters I want to cast.

  2. #442

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No, it isn't. That isn't what people are requesting now.


    Some of your ideas are interesting, if unrelated to this thread. In your example, I'd like to see the choice for the tier 3 exalted angel autogrant be wings or aura, take your pick. I bet there's some FVS who wouldn't mind having aura.

    I don't care how many melee bonuses you give casters, I'm not going to equip my casters with melee weapons just for destiny abilities. I have melee alts for when I want to melee. On my casters I want to cast.
    I'd love that as an addition, feels like everyone can use whats unique for the fvs but fvs instead doesn't get anything unique in place. Aura would be nice, limited of course compared to the cleric aura but something. Excellent idea.

    As for arcane and melee? I don't see any reason at epic level to waste any effort on melee. It would never be as strong as the weakest melee class and it would only dilute caster abilities anyways. Maybe useful for battle divines, but not for defined casters.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    While fate points aren't coupled with your active destiny, the request is for 50% XP towards destinies you're not actually using (some of which is getting to a twist and some of which is fate points). The end result is leveling something you're not actually using.

    They're not going to do it.

    1. Make the system less arbitrary by putting more "traveling lanes" and interconnections in = mitigates pointless leveling just to move from one ED to the next.
    2. Expand the ED trees "taller" (more teirs to achieve) (solves needing to level other destinies for fate points, because done right you could get all your fate points by leveling your chosen ED and the twists you want.)
    3. Make more "innate" abilities make at least 3 elective innate abilities (you choose one or the other) the electives would be things that significantly duplicate that Class's abilities and giving those abilities to an outside class (Melee abilities to a caster, casting abilities to a melee).

    My example for 3. is FvS innate "leap of faith" FvS's already have this at level 17, but it is apparently intended for Pali's and Cleric's... Throwing them a bone to make leveling that ED more fun. Make this an "elective" and have another choice that is a complimentary to a FvS who already has wings (I've proposed this in another thread for another reason, but this makes a good example so I'll stay with it) for example make the FvS choice only work if you already have wings, and adds some knock downs to mobs in the path of the "leap". Outside classes get wings, FvS's can choose cooler wings with a knockdown effect. Do the same for all the other ED's make an outside class focused innate and a innate intended for the class that corresponds to that ED.

    Needless to say they need to come up with some build agnostic "fun" electives to add to every ED... So lets make up an example:

    Barb ED: first Innate if you're actually a Barb/Melee "Crit Rage" (the old enhancement) if you already have at least 6 melee levels. The other choice is intended for non-melees who are only leveling the ED: it gives a nice boost to HP's and full BAB while swinging a weapon, the next one gives a Barb "shoulder charge" ability while the elective gives more HP boost and a clicky that gives full TWF feats equivalent for 60 seconds at a time. Then the next one does something similar to the point that a caster with nearly fully leveled Primal Avatar while in that ED can melee effectively but not as good as a real melee, and of course with obviously less AC/PRR/DPS etc. A caster that chooses to could even remain in that destiny if they wanted to run a very non optimal caster that can melee some. And twist in casting stuff from the casting ED or as seems to be popular, the Ranger ED Just an example and the NUMBERS are not intended to be the best or most balanced.

    The idea is to make ED's that suck for your build, be more fun, to add some element of power while you level them, and EXPERIENCE them, and thus get experience (XP/Fate points) from them
    So, in the end learning to ride a unicycle is going to make one a better accountant. Especially if they bonce a check while doing so as using their uber accounting skills would detract from the process?

    Now it makes sense to me. Thank you.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No, it isn't. That isn't what people are requesting now.
    Well it is the actual original premise of the thread, I wasn't aware that you all had gotten together and agreed that the 50% passive XP bonus should be strictly fate point unlocking and not progress any ED whatsoever...

    [edit] Oh and the melee comment is of course your preference, Turbine can never please all the of the people all of the time. Personally if I was leveling an ED to twist something in it, I would try to have fun with it, and if the ED's were improved to the point where each one had SOMETHING to offer even to a class that is a poor contrast with the ED (melee ED's on Casters) then I think that mitigates a lot of the problem. I bet skilled players don't hate Exalted Angel that much, because they're getting wings, but it could be better, I know my Pali is enjoying wings... too bad there isn't a little melee flavor in there... And again this is something that might be a byproduct of getting the system out the door that is going to have to scale to at least a 30 level cap... you know they aren't leaving the cap at 25. when ED's become active at 20 and you have 10 epic levels of quests to do, getting your twists will seem a lot less grindy and farmy because you wont be sitting at level 25 for most of it.
    Last edited by IronClan; 02-02-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So, in the end learning to ride a unicycle is going to make one a better accountant. Especially if they bonce a check while doing so as using their uber accounting skills would detract from the process?

    Now it makes sense to me. Thank you.
    I think you should have called it good with that post that had the desert and sunscreen analogy.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  6. #446

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Well it is the actual original premise of the thread, I wasn't aware that you all had gotten together and agreed that the 50% passive XP bonus should be strictly fate point unlocking and not progress any ED whatsoever...
    The 50% is out the window too. The get together was many pages ago.

    The idea itself was presented by Gremmlyn in post 351 in direct response to one of your posts. I added some specific details to how the mechanic might be implemented in post 353. Many agreed, nobody objected.

    You're arguing against positions that were essentially abandoned 100 posts ago.

  7. #447

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    (removed some stuff that just re-thread old arguments for snark)
    [edit] Oh and the melee comment is of course your preference, Turbine can never please all the of the people all of the time. Personally if I was leveling an ED to twist something in it, I would try to have fun with it, and if the ED's were improved to the point where each one had SOMETHING to offer even to a class that is a poor contrast with the ED (melee ED's on Casters) then I think that mitigates a lot of the problem. I bet skilled players don't hate Exalted Angel that much, because they're getting wings, but it could be better, I know my Pali is enjoying wings... too bad there isn't a little melee flavor in there...(removed some stuff that just re-thread old arguments).
    {edit to remove snark}

    I have no use for melee on a pure arcane. Niche for a battle cleric maybe, but no. I wouldn't twist in something that would take away from what my arcane is great in. Putting a stick in my arcanes hand would take away tons of DPS. Plus it would force me to regear completely. I can imagine given the items that are out there and how they slot that most would have the same issue. The only thing I can think of is the u17 iron beads. It allows a air savant to collect all spell power and crit chance in one necklace. Possibly leaving a hand slot open if they don't want to use twilight. And even a twilight with added dps augment would be a horrible way to add a sliver melee dps and use of twist. But then staying out of melee is most of the idea a better idea for an arcane then in melee.

    Aura for FvS would be nice. However I do wish it wasn't an autogrant. The wings should be a twistable feature just like so many other things are. And with possible Aura. There are so many other things that would be better autogrants anyways. I mean you can get extra striding speed using the Monk destiny and even things like piercing and double strike. I dont think wings is entirely out of line in that case.

    Heck give me real flight instead, or teleport to anywhere - now that would be cool magic even if it forced the devs to start thinking about level design even more.
    Last edited by patang01; 02-02-2013 at 09:26 PM.

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The 50% is out the window too. The get together was many pages ago.

    The idea itself was presented by Gremmlyn in post 351 in direct response to one of your posts. I added some specific details to how the mechanic might be implemented in post 353. Many agreed, nobody objected.

    You're arguing against positions that were essentially abandoned 100 posts ago.
    I'm familiar with those posts, but I haven't seen this chorus of agreement or official position changes you're implying. Frankly even giving you the benefit of the doubt and re-reading from page 18 I don't see it, Grem, you and then Sono's and later Patang "like the idea" and Barthok "wont object". Not sure when you guys formed a quorum. and officially agreed. but 5 posts a few hours ago about uncoupling fate points doesn't trump the fact that many of you are still arguing with the same people including myself over the same issues, including yourself, Sono and Grem.

    I'm not sure what "100 posts ago" has to do with anything, are you trying to pretend that was a long long time ago, and not just few hours back?

    All in all I'll take this as backpedaling and retreating from the original position... Seems a lot more like that than a case of "we all agreed a long time ago, where have you been all this time" that you are trying to portray.
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  9. #449

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I'm familiar with those posts, but I haven't seen this chorus of agreement or official position changes you're implying. Frankly even giving you the benefit of the doubt and re-reading from page 18 I don't see it, Grem, you and then Sono's and later Patang "like the idea" and Barthok "wont object". Not sure when you guys formed a quorum. and officially agreed. but 5 posts a few hours ago about uncoupling fate points doesn't trump the fact that many of you are still arguing with the same people including myself over the same issues, including yourself, Sono and Grem.

    I'm not sure what "100 posts ago" has to do with anything, are you trying to pretend that was a long long time ago, and not just few hours back?

    All in all I'll take this as backpedaling and retreating from the original position... Seems a lot more like that than a case of "we all agreed a long time ago, where have you been all this time" that you are trying to portray.
    Don't you find this type of pointless sniping boring? I know it's a ego thing but it seems you're more interested in picking a fight and argument then adding. We all know your sticking point and what you think about it by now.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I'm familiar with those posts, but I haven't seen this chorus of agreement or official position changes you're implying. Frankly even giving you the benefit of the doubt and re-reading from page 18 I don't see it, Grem, you and then Sono's and later Patang "like the idea" and Barthok "wont object". Not sure when you guys formed a quorum. and officially agreed. but 5 posts a few hours ago about uncoupling fate points doesn't trump the fact that many of you are still arguing with the same people including myself over the same issues, including yourself, Sono and Grem.

    I'm not sure what "100 posts ago" has to do with anything, are you trying to pretend that was a long long time ago, and not just few hours back?

    All in all I'll take this as backpedaling and retreating from the original position... Seems a lot more like that than a case of "we all agreed a long time ago, where have you been all this time" that you are trying to portray.
    you must have missed this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Good game all. Nice suggestions +1 to the OPs suggestion and +1 to the suggestion of fate xp leveling separated.

    I have a bell to sit on
    That was me attempting to sign off, please do not invoke my name for anymore senseless circular arguments. I am done commenting, and will only be checking back for good ideas that would help transform the ED grind into something more enjoyable, everything else has lead to mindless psychobabble.

    I do not need to be addressed again, I would not mind hearing some interesting ideas. Everything else has lost it's luster pages ago.

    I do not declare my innocence, I am not above the back and forth, I've just reached the limit. Thank you for understanding.

  11. #451

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I haven't seen this chorus of agreement or official position changes you're implying. [...] Grem, you and then Sono's and later Patang "like the idea"
    That list of names is a list of the primary agitators for the proxy leveling, or really any change to let us stay in our destiny of choice. That you agree those names signed on to the idea is itself the quorum you're claiming not to see.

    many of you are still arguing with the same people including myself over the same issues, including yourself, Sono and Grem.
    I don't see any arguing for proxy leveling since the linked posts.

    I'm not sure what "100 posts ago" has to do with anything, are you trying to pretend that was a long long time ago, and not just few hours back?
    Long ago in the discussion, not time.

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The 50% is out the window too. The get together was many pages ago.

    The idea itself was presented by Gremmlyn in post 351 in direct response to one of your posts. I added some specific details to how the mechanic might be implemented in post 353. Many agreed, nobody objected.

    You're arguing against positions that were essentially abandoned 100 posts ago.
    Actually was presented in post 247 first!!

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=247

    And Iron if have been reading post you would know the suggestion had changed. Can see how it would be hard to miss with all the bickering going on!!
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  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I think you should have called it good with that post that had the desert and sunscreen analogy.
    Unfortunately, I have since moved to the sarcasm destiny so am no longer capable of using insightful analogies due to the system we are operating under. That would be proxy leveling.

  14. #454
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    I cant believe you guys are still at it. Its leading nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    There is no guarantee that you, or anybody else, would do things differently even if the change was made. That is one of the reasons i find the idea of free xp, for that is exactly what it is, so distasteful.
    Actually, as has been pointed out about four dozen times, there actually IS a guarantee that people aren't going to stay in a maxed destiny to to window farm Rusted Blades at the reduced rate of 50% XP. The guarantee is that it is so incredibly quick and easy to do that it couldn't be any quicker or easier than it already is. Therefore anyone receiving 50% XP would most certainly be at a disadvantage.

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    Actually, as has been pointed out about four dozen times, there actually IS a guarantee that people aren't going to stay in a maxed destiny to to window farm Rusted Blades at the reduced rate of 50% XP. The guarantee is that it is so incredibly quick and easy to do that it couldn't be any quicker or easier than it already is. Therefore anyone receiving 50% XP would most certainly be at a disadvantage.
    BUt it might still appeal, no guarantees one way or the other.

  17. #457

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    BUt it might still appeal, no guarantees one way or the other.
    And? If X person likes the idea and you don't, continue bicker about it seems pedestrian. If Turbine chose to do nothing, something, exact what the OP first suggested or what someone else did, it's really not important. It's an added mechanic and certainly not worth re-fighting.

    Problems demand solutions; people without solutions always argue for or in addition to the problem.

  18. #458
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    And? If X person likes the idea and you don't, continue bicker about it seems pedestrian. If Turbine chose to do nothing, something, exact what the OP first suggested or what someone else did, it's really not important. It's an added mechanic and certainly not worth re-fighting.

    Problems demand solutions; people without solutions always argue for or in addition to the problem.
    Remember that some solutions create greater problems than the original one. And it really does not help insulting people. Quite the opposite. You are way to wrought up to continue the discussion at the moment, and that means both sides of the issue, so please dont. You are not helping yourselves, or anybody else at the moment.

  19. #459

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Remember that some solutions create greater problems than the original one. And it really does not help insulting people. Quite the opposite. You are way to wrought up to continue the discussion at the moment, and that means both sides of the issue, so please dont. You are not helping yourselves, or anybody else at the moment.


    I could say ditto but it's pointless. What I'm saying is 'and?'. Meaning maybe it doesn't change what quests people level in but it's not going to get worse. It can't get much worse then now. As to what else negative that might happen I don't know. People needing more xp to level? Hardly sounds like someone will quit this game from running out of things to do if the requirement is more time. And if that person will quit over the grind that we have now, they will quit over grinding even more in a off level (as previously suggested) unless the fun factor makes it feel 'better'.

    I personally think raid timers have a more detrimental effect on people quitting for lack of doing something then requiring more time to run. I'm not against raid timers since I don't power level/farm like that but I also notice a clear drop of citw runs since there are a lot of people that have done their 20th already. Which is sad. It took a while before everyone had VoD and hound items and now some might run it for fun. I barely see any Chrono - the old token system is on its death knell and most people have all they need. LoB and MA is setup for failure through the nature of the 2 wilderness runs before the actual quest and the wonky way stuff drops if you run it in heroic or epic. VON still runs now and then because of some of the rare items, same with DQ. DQ still benefits from being a quick raid. But raid timers sure put a fork in how often you see things up.

    There is for nothing that a larger segment of the player base is soloing compared from before. Forcing people to group through the need for complicated mechanics in games just make people avoid those games and making quests more like rail shooters promote soloing. In not against soloing and I find forcing people into groups tedious. Because many times that includes nonsensical reasoning for X device require 2 people to do something. So how do you fix it? Think about solutions that promote grouping while still allow soloing? How do you make things fun while still maintain 'grind'? I think the OP had a good idea that became better with suggestions. There are those that felt it was bad and instead did their outmost to make it sound worse with slippery slope arguments. Which unfortunately leads to the constant back and forth.

    But decouple fate points sounds great and add the ability to level whatever destiny sounds good too. All in the general nature to avoid the idea of 'leveling' while capped but still allow greater flexibility. There will always be those that powerleveling using the easiest mechanic. They do that now while TRing and they'll do that with any change in destiny mechanic. But I don't think that is how most players will react and even if they do it, it would only take the longer to do the same using the OP method. So in other words; no net change whatsoever in player behavior.

  20. #460

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Actually was presented in post 247 first!!

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=247

    And Iron if have been reading post you would know the suggestion had changed. Can see how it would be hard to miss with all the bickering going on!!
    Acknowledged. I'll credit Levonestral for the idea. (And I did indeed miss that one.)

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