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Thread: ED suggestion!!

  1. #421
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Maybe you shouldn't try to read my mind, since you failed here so miserably. I would not farm RB, I would quest normally if I could have my main destiny active. I've repeatedly stated this. The ONLY reason I farm RB is because I find playing in off-destinies unfun. Which I've also said repeatedly.
    There is no guarantee that you, or anybody else, would do things differently even if the change was made. That is one of the reasons i find the idea of free xp, for that is exactly what it is, so distasteful.

    WHile im back, ill repeat what ive said before, all this discussion will make is enemies (even forum enemies can be annoying), so it would be better if you guys just gave it a rest (that means both sides). Start a new thread asking for suggestions or something since there is too much ill will going around at the moment in this one.

  2. #422
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Why are people still whirl pooling arguments. No ones way of having fun is the same.

    What one thinks is fun another doesn't.

    What one thinks is work another thinks is fun.

    There is no right argument here.

    Let's move on to what the subject of thread is ideas on how the ED is awful now and can make better .

    Please, if can't I may just request it to be closed if everyone can't stop bickering.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  3. #423
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Which, in a nut shell, points out what is wrong with the current system. It's like designing a car with the roughest ride on the road, who would want to drive it (other than some insecure idiot that thinks doing so will prove his manhood I guess).
    That would be most f the posters, i think. People wish to prove their manhood by making an uber toon, or playing it in an uber way, or something. Im not targeting anyone on any side personally, just making an observation.

    What youre doing is wanting that car with shockabsorbers, airconditioning and all the neat stuff for a low price, and still hope to prove your manhood with it.

    All youll get out of leveling all the EDs is the feeling of: Man this game is too easy, the devs must be sleeping since there is nothing challenging me.

  4. #424
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Why are people still whirl pooling arguments. No ones way of having fun is the same.

    What one thinks is fun another doesn't.

    What one thinks is work another thinks is fun.

    There is no right argument here.

    Let's move on to what the subject of thread is ideas on how the ED is awful now and can make better .

    Please, if can't I may just request it to be closed if everyone can't stop bickering.
    Please make that request and start another thread about the subject in a week or so when tempers have cooled down a bit.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin_dude View Post
    I don't use either of those two methods. I simply play the toon to epic status, level his destiny, have a bunch of fun, then TR and start having fun again. There are still numerous race/class combinations I haven't tried, prestige arcs I haven't explored, all that sort of thing. I have things set up pretty well now on two different servers, just so that I can do experiments on one of them and "main" type toons on the other.

    As you can see, my system for accomplishing this end doesn't involve either running a toon in an undesirable ED or "sitting on a bell" (I am beginning to think that phrase will soon transfer to non-game situations).

    Edit: please note that I didn't say this is a "better" or "superior" way of doing things. It's simply how I've decided it would be the most fun to me. Not trying to fan any flames, here.
    Ah, so your answer is to use DDOs silly rerolling without really rerolling system. Rerolling is what I do when all else fails and is akin to admitting defeat on that build. Something I try to avoid, not plan for.

    So, no re-leveling from 1-20 in order to have your ED fit your character (darn, this shirt don't fit, better get my arms shortened by a couple inches) isn't what I would call a better solution. Just another bad option.

  6. #426
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Good game all. Nice suggestions +1 to the OPs suggestion and +1 to the suggestion of fate xp leveling separated.

    I have a bell to sit on

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    There is no guarantee that you, or anybody else, would do things differently even if the change was made. That is one of the reasons i find the idea of free xp, for that is exactly what it is, so distasteful.
    It gives more options. Who cares if some people don't use them? Frankly I don't care how you level your character, I just want better options for leveling mine.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    That would be most f the posters, i think. People wish to prove their manhood by making an uber toon, or playing it in an uber way, or something. Im not targeting anyone on any side personally, just making an observation.

    What youre doing is wanting that car with shockabsorbers, airconditioning and all the neat stuff for a low price, and still hope to prove your manhood with it.
    No, I just want an excuse to drive it.

    All youll get out of leveling all the EDs is the feeling of: Man this game is too easy, the devs must be sleeping since there is nothing challenging me.
    No, all I will get out of leveling all the ED's are the fate points I want and a bunch of destiny points I have nothing useful to spend on.

    By your logic, again, the entire game should be played on a level 1 character as the game is to easy if your character actually progresses by playing it.

    My method. Level an ED, use that ED to gain fate points and twists to build onto it. Simple progression, the same as using what you got from level 1 to get level 2 and using all that to get to level 3. Constantly progressing using what you got to get the next thing. Not get to level 2, revert to rank one then repeat till you get to 3, then go back and repeat the same thing again to get to 4. That is regressive and repetitive. I've already done that why do I want to do it again when I could be watching paint dry or something else more exciting.

    Really what is so challenging about replaying the same levels over and over again, grinding out the same 1.8 million xp from the same EN quests over and over is a task, not a challenge. Give me what I have earned so I can move on and earn the next while facing new challenges.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    From what I can tell, the main argument is that if you can't stomach standing on that bell long enough to gain those fate points, you simply don't deserve to have them.
    So just to get you straight you are claiming outright that RB is the only quest you can earn ED XP from? Because that is required for your statement to be true, and I'm 100% sure you don't actually think it's the only quest where ED XP is possible... leaving your statement at 100% intentional hyperbole.

    To me the main argument is far more complex than you're trying to portray it, and while you made a great case and an excellent analogy for why the current ED system could and should be improved the other day, the above post just doesn't do anything for your side of the argument. It is also an ACTUAL EXAMPLE of a straw man.

    (For those scoring at home that's approximately a 20 to 1 ratio of actual straw man arguments to claimed straw man arguments. in this thread so far)

    To me the main argument is that RPG's aren't rife with ways to proxy level things while playing the game, and they shouldn't start now. Along with a healthy dose of (mostly ignored) good suggestions for ways to make leveling ED's more fun and less tedious.

    You can add that Turbine is extremely unlikely to take the proxy leveling suggestion as anything but player wishful thinking. But they might see players agreeing that ED leveling is pretty lame and make some changes to it to make being in an off destiny more fun...

    They sure aren't likely to see the good suggestions burred in a thread full of bickering over a terrible idea that they would roll their eyes at if they did read it.

    Lets be perfectly plain about it, no developer is going to put a large expensive to develop new system in their game and then let you obviate it a few months later by letting you level it by proxy.
    Last edited by IronClan; 02-02-2013 at 05:21 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  10. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about now. If you have a point to make, go for it.



    The "magic", whether you like that word for it or not, is getting free bonus XP while capped. Capped characters get ZERO XP, because they have the power of being capped. Levelling characters get XP, in order to progress toward the power of being capped. Getting the power AND XP is the "magic" or "easy button" or "double-dipping" or "unfairness" or "totally overpowered unbalanced garbage" proposal that I am against.

    Why would you want to earn XP slower in a destiny? Just go earn XP in that destiny. Unless you're trying to double-dip, in which case I call shenanigans.



    Please keep your politics out of the DDO forums. It is specifically forbidden in the DDO community guidelines:

    "Discussion of religious or political topics is prohibited on the Community Sites."



    I guess your mind is boggled, then. Because there is no penalty or drawback, only pure benefit, to suddenly getting XP where now you get none, i.e., when you are capped.
    I explained myself so many times...reargue whatever you'd like but twice as long is not 'magic' nor a bonus. It's just not penalizing enough for you. And I'm not discussing politics or religion. I used an example without broading it (the example was using magic in context of RL - using the word 'magic' as RL context talking about programming code is pointless. As long as the technology permits it's just a code mechanic. Whatever the dev allows and do is just a new function.
    Last edited by patang01; 02-02-2013 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #431

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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin_dude View Post
    I've leveled a bard to level 5 fatesinger, a rogue to level 5 shadow dancer, and a ranger to level 5 shiradi champion. I never spent any substantial amount of any quest standing on a bell. I also didn't see any other people doing it.
    It's the drawback of having two quests that people can easily farm for XP. Impossible Demands and Rusted Blades. I see them running daily on my server and moreso during Epic XP bonus. It's the most boring but efficient way of leveling destinies.

  12. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Ah, so your answer is to use DDOs silly rerolling without really rerolling system.
    Let's be fair, here, that is legitimately a third way. I'd set it up as a choice between playing normally in an off destiny or rapid-fire farming high-xp quests to get the off-destinies over with quickly. He said those weren't the only two ways, and then provided a third: TRing into different classes so that every destiny is a primary destiny.

    Whatever your (or my equally unenthusiastic) feelings about that third option are, that is indeed a third option.

  13. #433

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    nice. It's farming House of Rusted Blades, once the fastest and easiest way to level ALL EDs on a single toon. Boring but one of the more efficient and easy ways to get back to your desired ED.

    The thread is trying to come up with ways that would make leveling ALL EDs on one toon a little more enjoyable(and not any easier)
    And that's why I suggested fate points for favor as main pool - since that forces people to run many different quests and on high difficulty. It can be limited to epic quests only (minus wonky challenges and raids). That would force diversity in leveling. And naturally a few fate points for unlocking entire destinies and circles. But even having a separate XP leveling pool for fate point works too.

    Granted it must have some way to do pretty much any type of destiny as the player pleases compared to the current.

  14. #434

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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    It's the drawback of having two quests that people can easily farm for XP. Impossible Demands and Rusted Blades. I see them running daily on my server and moreso during Epic XP bonus. It's the most boring but efficient way of leveling destinies.
    VON3 is the third, and is actually much more fun and engaging. Unfortunately, it's much harder to find a capable group to get it down to a fast enough time to compete. A good group can get 8 minute completions, but your average pug will be double that.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So just to get you straight you are claiming outright that RB is the only quest you can earn ED XP from? Because that is required for your statement to be true, and I'm 100% sure you don't actually think it's the only quest where ED XP is possible... leaving your statement at 100% intentional hyperbole.

    To me the main argument is far more complex than you're trying to portray it, and while you made a great case and an excellent analogy for why the current ED system could and should be improved the other day, the above post just doesn't do anything for your side of the argument. It is also an ACTUAL EXAMPLE of a straw man.

    (For those scoring at home that's approximately a 20 to 1 ratio of actual straw man arguments to claimed straw man arguments. in this thread so far)

    To me the main argument is that RPG's aren't rife with ways to proxy level things while playing the game, and they shouldn't start now. Along with a healthy dose of (mostly ignored) good suggestions for ways to make leveling ED's more fun and less tedious.

    You can add that Turbine is extremely unlikely to take the proxy leveling suggestion as anything but player wishful thinking. But they might see players agreeing that ED leveling is pretty lame and make some changes to it to make being in an off destiny more fun...

    They sure aren't likely to see the good suggestions burried in a thread full of bickering over a terrible idea that they would probably roll their eyes at if they did read it.

    Lets be perfectly plain about it, no developer is going to put a large expensive to develop new system in their game and then let you obviate it a few months later by letting you level it by proxy.
    There's not going to do that! it's silly to even suppose they would. So start talking realistic solutions and stop bickering over a failed idea.
    I'm sorry. A strawman wasn't my intent. My intent was to explain that those who think that regrinding destiny levels 1-5 over and over as some kind of challenge seem equate challenge to who has the perseverance to endure the most repetition. Whether it's sitting on that bell or doing other content balanced for characters stuck in that power level loop makes little difference as in either case they are basically treading water and not progressing.

    What you see as proxy leveling, I see as simple progression. What you see as leveling a different ED, I see as leveling another ED. As I've said time and again, if there is nothing wrong with using what you get from levels 1-10 to get level 11, why is it wrong to want to use what you learn from your first 5 destiny levels to gain the next 50?

    Nobody has yet to explain why one shouldn't use their ED to further build on it with twists and fate points?

  16. #436

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Let's be fair, here, that is legitimately a third way. I'd set it up as a choice between playing normally in an off destiny or rapid-fire farming high-xp quests to get the off-destinies over with quickly. He said those weren't the only two ways, and then provided a third: TRing into different classes so that every destiny is a primary destiny.

    Whatever your (or my equally unenthusiastic) feelings about that third option are, that is indeed a third option.
    Unfortunately forcing people to TR like that only feeds into peoples hardcore notions which is indeed another form of mindless grind. While appealing for some it's no different (grindwise) then to force someone to travel the entire destiny map. Which I assume most people want to assume. I rather have the option to reset start position WHEN you TR instead of as the only additional option to pick any destiny.

    Flexibility is good, but the notion of hardcoreness and work just to play is not always the best way to promote an entertainment Turbine hope people spend money on. In fact I think that most casual TRers are more then willing to spend TP to get heart of wood while the hardcore gamers grind out tokens to get it. So this would in the end only benefit the most hardcore players and very little turbine. My guess only of course.

  17. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    proxy leveling
    I don't think anyone is advocating proxy leveling at this point. I certainly am not. I don't want a single xp in any destiny that isn't active.

    What I want is to earn fate points -- which have nothing to do with your active destiny -- while in my preferred destiny.

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Let's be fair, here, that is legitimately a third way. I'd set it up as a choice between playing normally in an off destiny or rapid-fire farming high-xp quests to get the off-destinies over with quickly. He said those weren't the only two ways, and then provided a third: TRing into different classes so that every destiny is a primary destiny.

    Whatever your (or my equally unenthusiastic) feelings about that third option are, that is indeed a third option.
    Actually I see it as simply more of the same as either. It's like stabbing yourself in the eye to make the toe you stubbed seem less painful. Instead of simply regrinding those same 5 destiny levels again we are regrinding 20 heroic level, at a penalty to boot, as well as those same 5 destiny levels.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    And that's why I suggested fate points for favor as main pool - since that forces people to run many different quests and on high difficulty. It can be limited to epic quests only (minus wonky challenges and raids). That would force diversity in leveling. And naturally a few fate points for unlocking entire destinies and circles. But even having a separate XP leveling pool for fate point works too.

    Granted it must have some way to do pretty much any type of destiny as the player pleases compared to the current.
    This would still limit options. It would also tie leveling and fate points to existing content.

    Personally, I would rather see a system that works for bell sitters, regressers, progressers and, if you like this, favor farmers (though I don't know if this would work as it leaves absolutely no room for repetition). Pick your path and play.

  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't think anyone is advocating proxy leveling at this point. I certainly am not. I don't want a single xp in any destiny that isn't active.

    What I want is to earn fate points -- which have nothing to do with your active destiny -- while in my preferred destiny.
    While fate points aren't coupled with your active destiny, the request is for 50% XP towards destinies you're not actually using (some of which is getting to a twist and some of which is fate points). The end result is leveling something you're not actually using.

    They're not going to do it.

    1. Make the system less arbitrary by putting more "traveling lanes" and interconnections in = mitigates pointless leveling just to move from one ED to the next.
    2. Expand the ED trees "taller" (more teirs to achieve) (solves needing to level other destinies for fate points, because done right you could get all your fate points by leveling your chosen ED and the twists you want.)
    3. Make more "innate" abilities make at least 3 elective innate abilities (you choose one or the other) the electives would be things that significantly duplicate that Class's abilities and giving those abilities to an outside class (Melee abilities to a caster, casting abilities to a melee).

    My example for 3. is FvS innate "leap of faith" FvS's already have this at level 17, but it is apparently intended for Pali's and Cleric's... Throwing them a bone to make leveling that ED more fun. Make this an "elective" and have another choice that is a complimentary to a FvS who already has wings (I've proposed this in another thread for another reason, but this makes a good example so I'll stay with it) for example make the FvS choice only work if you already have wings, and adds some knock downs to mobs in the path of the "leap". Outside classes get wings, FvS's can choose cooler wings with a knockdown effect. Do the same for all the other ED's make an outside class focused innate and a innate intended for the class that corresponds to that ED.

    Needless to say they need to come up with some build agnostic "fun" electives to add to every ED... So lets make up an example:

    Barb ED: first Innate if you're actually a Barb/Melee "Crit Rage" (the old enhancement) if you already have at least 6 melee levels. The other choice is intended for non-melees who are only leveling the ED: it gives a nice boost to HP's and full BAB while swinging a weapon, the next one gives a Barb "shoulder charge" ability while the elective gives more HP boost and a clicky that gives full TWF feats equivalent for 60 seconds at a time. Then the next one does something similar to the point that a caster with nearly fully leveled Primal Avatar while in that ED can melee effectively but not as good as a real melee, and of course with obviously less AC/PRR/DPS etc. A caster that chooses to could even remain in that destiny if they wanted to run a very non optimal caster that can melee some. And twist in casting stuff from the casting ED or as seems to be popular, the Ranger ED Just an example and the NUMBERS are not intended to be the best or most balanced.

    The idea is to make ED's that suck for your build, be more fun, to add some element of power while you level them, and EXPERIENCE them, and thus get experience (XP/Fate points) from them
    Last edited by IronClan; 02-02-2013 at 06:47 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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