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  1. #21
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    Hi,

    I found the process of getting all EDs to level 5 on my ranger fairly painless, but perhaps my tolerance for grind is a little higher than some other people's.

    Compared to heroic levelling, epic levelling is really fast. To put this into context, when things go well, it takes me two weeks and an additional weekend to level a TR 2+ life. Normally it's more like three full weeks though, sometimes longer than that.

    But when each epic quest you do is worth 20k or more, it takes very little time to reach the requirement for 25 and get well into off destinies. The main mistake you can make with ED levelling that I've found is farming quests too intensively before you cap, so that the locked repetition penalty reduces this amount.

    As for off destinies, I think if you have a well built character at 20, you aren't going to be severely hampered by being in an off destiny unless you're trying EE content or you normally find EN or EH challenging in your main destiny.

    It won't be optimal, but when my ranger did the caster destinies, having the boost to saving throws available there was actually useful. And all of those levels in off destinies eventually contributed to a nice big pool of fate points, making some good twists possible.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  2. #22
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    I do not find leveling EDs painful either. I will say I was frugal during the 21-25 grind and none of my epic quests have penalties - so I can do them all.

    Someone talked about useless EDs -- but many people have played a whole useless life in a class they do not like playing...for 10 HP or silly rewards such as that.

    For the most part...I have found the ED not to be so bad as that at all... almost always you can find some useful skill or ability to distract you while you level through...

    Right now my FvS is all the way over in the the new Druid one... can't be bothered with the names sorry.

    Anyhow... I am having fun stacking Divine Punish with Insidious Spores and my light ray thingy from my FvS angel one...

    Is it boss? Best DPS in game? Solo EE while watching TV reruns? no. But it is fun and I can participate in EH anywhere in game and EE if I go back and grab one of my maxed EDs -- or even if I do not...but I think it is the polite thing to do on some of the hardest ones...

    So for me - it has been fun and a nice diversion while leveling. And sometimes I am surprised by how much I end up liking a supposedly useless ED and have a lot of fun leveling it... and miss it just a little when I go to the next.

    I have leveled maybe 5 EDs on my other character as well...same basic experience...tentative initially...have fond memories of skills I used to have when I move on... that character is 15Ranger/5Rogue
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  3. #23
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    Both of the last two posters bring up some excellent points.

    I would disagree that the 20-1-25 grind is trivial. Even at 20k per EN completions, you're still talking about 1.9 million xp- if my math fu is functioning, that's >95< quests. I think I read somewhere that the same 1.9 million xp gets one ED to level 5 and a second to level 3 or so (correct me if I'm wrong), which means that you're about, oh, 8 more ED levels away from being able to twist ED abilities optimally (in my original scenario) or approximately another 90 quests. Should anything require near on to 200 EN quest completions? Obviously, I'm of the opinion the answer is "no", but then I'm on the uphill slope of the grind and can't even begin to understand the power enhancement that comes with a successful completion of that particular journey.

    In a sense, the ED system is similar to multiclassing, except that, in EDs, you do not get the benefits from both/all classes as you're levelling up, only a tiny handful of selected one. If you remember 2nd Edition AD&D, humans weren't allowed to multiclass (gain xp in both classes at the same time) but could "dual-class", gaining xp in only one class at a time and not get to mix abilities until their second class was a higher level than their first one. I almost never saw any player choose to dual class because the grind was just so punishing; they'd just pick a non-human race and gain the benefits of both classes from the start. It was a bad mechanic in 2nd Ed and I think EDs in DDO are, if not as bad, at best not nearly as good as they could be.

    An example of how bad the mechanic is would be the number of "Epic Destiny Farms" , usually of House of Rusted Blades, you see. Almost always, the players are either level 24 with enough xp banked to be level 25 or level 25, and they'll run the same quest dozens and dozens of times so as to laboriously level up their secondary EDs. I just cannot believe that Turbine intended this to be the optimal way (judging by the number of people who employ the strategery) to gain ED xp. There's simply got to be a better way than this.

    One simple fix would be one I've often read here: allow a player to stay in his primary ED, even if capped, and be able to gain xp in a secondary ED, albeit at a reduced rate- say a ratio of maybe 25%-33%. Justify it, if necessary, by saying that the xp you're earning in your secondary ED is "book learning" (you're not using knowledge gained in your questing) and is thus limited.
    Last edited by LordMond63; 02-07-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMond63 View Post
    An example of how bad the mechanic is would be the number of "Epic Destiny Farms" , usually of House of Rusted Blades, you see. Almost always, the players are either level 24 with enough xp banked to be level 25 or level 25, and they'll run the same quest dozens and dozens of times so as to laboriously level up their secondary EDs. I just cannot believe that Turbine intended this to be the optimal way (judging by the number of people who employ the strategery) to gain ED xp. There's simply got to be a better way than this.
    Hi,

    Isn't this really a self-inflicted injury though?

    People farm those quests for an efficient xp per hour.If you want to get all of your EDs done quickly, then running or joining one of those farming groups is a good way way to do it.

    No-one is required to do it that way, and it's probably not what Turbine intended at all. Or maybe they intended that it be possible for those who wanted to do it, but in no way is it a requirement.

    I'm making an assumption here, but I think it's likely that the journey to maxed out EDs was meant to take a while and act as an endgame of sorts.

    I think the way the repetition penalty works was an attempt to make us take our time and do a number of different quests rather than farm one or two to death.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Isn't this really a self-inflicted injury though?
    Absolutely it is.

    People farm those quests for an efficient xp per hour.If you want to get all of your EDs done quickly, then running or joining one of those farming groups is a good way way to do it.

    No-one is required to do it that way, and it's probably not what Turbine intended at all. Or maybe they intended that it be possible for those who wanted to do it, but in no way is it a requirement.
    Again, you are correct and this is what I have my greatest problem with.

    Whether they intended it or not, Turbine has made one method of gain ED xp by far the most efficient method and they have done little or nothing that I see to change that. I'm asking that there be an alternative that is perhaps only slightly less efficient be introduced rather than the House farm being nerfed, which is what I'd expect Turbine to do to 'fix' things.

    Now it may well be possible that Epic Gianthold will prove to be an alternative. Certainly additional Epic level content coupled with updates to GH loot and the augment system will motivate players to try something other than the House farm. We'll just have to wait and see whether it is a viable alternative or not.

    I'm making an assumption here, but I think it's likely that the journey to maxed out EDs was meant to take a while and act as an endgame of sorts.

    I think the way the repetition penalty works was an attempt to make us take our time and do a number of different quests rather than farm one or two to death.

    Thanks.
    I think that a reasonable assumption.

    The problem with your second statement, though, is that the repetition penalty ends when you hit 25, so the focus is even more on the quickest way to earn ED xp- you have little else to do at this point (save the never-ending gear grind I suppose). All you need do is look at the number of ED Farm groups for level 24 and 25 that fill the LFM pane night after night to see the shortsightedness of Turbine's plan.

    A much better system would be one we've seen outlined here on the Forums.....

    1) Allow the player to select what percentage of his post-20 xp goes to Epic levels and what percentage goes to EDs, say up to a 70/30 or 60/40 split to prevent a level 21 character from having capped a destiny and thus making a complete mockery of at-level content.

    2) Allow the player to select a Primary ED which must come from his character's main destiny circle and a Secondary ED which can come from any circle.

    3) Allow the player to select what percentage of xp is allocated to which destiny, with the preclusion of a secondary destiny being allocated more xp than the primary (again possibly with the 70/30 or 60/40 cap).

    4) Note that the Secondary ED's abilities are dormant unless the player chooses to make that one the Active destiny or the player selects abilities from it to Twist in via fate Points.

    5) Upon capping a Primary ED, the player can select another ED from his primary sphere. If he has capped all three EDs in his primary sphere, he can select as his Primary any ED from any other sphere. The player can then pick a new Secondary and start earning ED xp as in #1 and #2 above.

    That's just off the top of my head and I'm positive that it can be improved upon. The goal here is to make the journey towards having ED abilities that work together well be more interesting and varied than they are now.
    In an election, always vote for the candidate who likes big butts....because, you know, they cannot lie.

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMond63 View Post
    Absolutely it is.



    Again, you are correct and this is what I have my greatest problem with.

    Whether they intended it or not, Turbine has made one method of gain ED xp by far the most efficient method and they have done little or nothing that I see to change that. I'm asking that there be an alternative that is perhaps only slightly less efficient be introduced rather than the House farm being nerfed, which is what I'd expect Turbine to do to 'fix' things.

    Now it may well be possible that Epic Gianthold will prove to be an alternative. Certainly additional Epic level content coupled with updates to GH loot and the augment system will motivate players to try something other than the House farm. We'll just have to wait and see whether it is a viable alternative or not.



    I think that a reasonable assumption.

    The problem with your second statement, though, is that the repetition penalty ends when you hit 25, so the focus is even more on the quickest way to earn ED xp- you have little else to do at this point (save the never-ending gear grind I suppose). All you need do is look at the number of ED Farm groups for level 24 and 25 that fill the LFM pane night after night to see the shortsightedness of Turbine's plan.

    A much better system would be one we've seen outlined here on the Forums.....

    1) Allow the player to select what percentage of his post-20 xp goes to Epic levels and what percentage goes to EDs, say up to a 70/30 or 60/40 split to prevent a level 21 character from having capped a destiny and thus making a complete mockery of at-level content.

    2) Allow the player to select a Primary ED which must come from his character's main destiny circle and a Secondary ED which can come from any circle.

    3) Allow the player to select what percentage of xp is allocated to which destiny, with the preclusion of a secondary destiny being allocated more xp than the primary (again possibly with the 70/30 or 60/40 cap).

    4) Note that the Secondary ED's abilities are dormant unless the player chooses to make that one the Active destiny or the player selects abilities from it to Twist in via fate Points.

    5) Upon capping a Primary ED, the player can select another ED from his primary sphere. If he has capped all three EDs in his primary sphere, he can select as his Primary any ED from any other sphere. The player can then pick a new Secondary and start earning ED xp as in #1 and #2 above.

    That's just off the top of my head and I'm positive that it can be improved upon. The goal here is to make the journey towards having ED abilities that work together well be more interesting and varied than they are now.
    Just an update and a few comments.

    Since eGH came out I never see any farming groups up on Orien (often to my disappointment), so I believe that it very much has presented itself as an alternative because the gear and xp are both very nice, and it isn't just 1 quest to run over and over for good rewards.

    I don't really buy all the criticism of the ED grind. At some level I can commiserate, but really you get 90% of your power from your primary ED, the twists are just icing. I know people who have chosen to NOT grind EDs because they get everything they want from their primary. It's a perception issue: you feel like you have to have the max, the most, and therefor like you have to do the grind, and also like the grind prevents you from being the most... but you don't.

    I agree with others that there are things to enjoy from (nearly) every ED, and exploring them gives you experience and ideas for future lives, and something to burn extra cycles on. I personally love that if I only have 30 minutes I can just run rusted blades 8-10 times and get a level or 2 in an ED, and feel like I accomplished something meaningful even though I only had 30 minutes to play. I also kind of like that I still get XP even though I'm an otherwise capped toon, so when I inevitably get no named loot (over and over again) from the missions I'm running, I don't feel like my time was wasted. If I want to do something especially challenging I'll switch to my primary and accept that I'm getting no XP, otherwise I can run most everything in an off-destiny.

  7. #27
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    As a follow up point, a good RL friend of mine leveled his bard in fatesinger and was 100% sure it was his primary destiny and was VERY reluctant to level other destinies.... Then he did magister and thought "...maybe this should be my primary", then he leveled DI and said "wow, doing damage is AWESOME!", then he leveled SD and decided that the added defense he gets from it may make it his primary for certain types of content... he hasn't even gotten to LD and Fury yet! Leveling off-destiny can be fun, and definitely interesting and educational.

  8. #28
    Community Member Sarzor's Avatar
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    I'm sure that I'm showing my lack of knowledge on EDs, but can one pop into an unlocked ED, grind out the first easy level or two, then go back to another unlocked ED with the extra fate points unlocked?

    I.e. - If I was level 4 in Unyielding Sentinel, could I pop over to Exalted Angel, get the first level or two, then go over to shadowdancer get 2 levels there, and go back to Sentinel with an extra unlocked fate point? Or does one need to get up to level 3 (or 4) to go back the other direction to a fully unlocked destiny?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzor View Post
    I'm sure that I'm showing my lack of knowledge on EDs, but can one pop into an unlocked ED, grind out the first easy level or two, then go back to another unlocked ED with the extra fate points unlocked?

    I.e. - If I was level 4 in Unyielding Sentinel, could I pop over to Exalted Angel, get the first level or two, then go over to shadowdancer get 2 levels there, and go back to Sentinel with an extra unlocked fate point? Or does one need to get up to level 3 (or 4) to go back the other direction to a fully unlocked destiny?
    Once a destiny is unlocked you can go in and out of it at will. The level 3 (or 4 for across spheres) is just for the initial unlock.

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