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Thread: Shears of Fate

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Really? I must have missed that. Can you quote me where in this thread has someone stated they want are petitioning for an ability to gain exp in multiple destinies at the same time?
    In fact, since you're having this discussion with me, would you care to point out where I made such a request?
    Being able to level any ED at full strength in your preferred ED is no different to getting a massive boost to the XP you earn, because you are able to earn it so much faster.

    Its no different to saying you should be able to use an eSoS at the same level as a regular SoS. You are wanting to do something outside of what the game is meant to allow, so that you are far more powerful than you should be, while earning XP at a much quicker rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    What I'm asking has no influence over the total destiny exp requirement.
    But it has a massive influence over the ease at which you can earn your XP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    And this in no way explains how the optional TR system has somehow, in your mind, become a mandatory part of gameplay. Can you, instead of constructing strawman arguments, point me to where the devs have stated that TRing is a required part of the game and EDs can only be gained over multiple lives?
    It must be easy for you, considering how certain you are that we have - and aren't intended to have - no freedom in the matter.
    How is capping every ED in the one life not an option that people choose to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    I used the item exactly how instructed and intended.
    From the wiki:
    "Allows you to switch your active epic destiny at a rest shrine during a quest so you don't have to wait until you can speak with a Fatespinner in a public area."

    Where in there does it say you can stay in one ED while levelling another?

    If someone has an SS of the actual item which states that you can stay in one ED while levelling another I will stand corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    This has nothing to do with exploiting to gain an unfair advantage and more power than intended.
    Of course it does. It was not meant to allow you to stay in one ED while levelling another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    The only effort in grinding the EDs is in not clawing your eyes out after the 200th Rusted Blades run.
    Do you not think the fact that you need to grind 15? million XP to cap all your EDs is a sign that maybe, just maybe, Turbine didnt expect people to cap all their EDs in a single life by chain running a single dungeon 200 times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    This whole matter clearly has no relevance to you, yet you fight it as if it did. I'd like to know why.
    Because Im opposed to people exploiting, and Im opposed to terrible P2Win items being sold.

    If a large chunk of the playerbase exploits and ends up far more powerful than they should be, then claim the game is now "too easy" then Turbine ends up nerfing to make things harder for them, which then has a far bigger impact on those who werent cheating, and now will struggle even more to keep up.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    Bug1: stay in your current destiny, while gaining xp in another.

    Bug2: activate all destinies and become Voltron.

    I don't think anyone thinks bug 2 was kosher. Bug 1 on the other hand... absolutely legit and needed in game.
    Is it still Bug2 if you only activated, say, 4 instead of 11? Or just 2? Honestly, I don't see any difference between 1 and 2, both are cheating to get the double or more benefits from EDs.

  3. #63
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    I haven't personally bothered with using Shears, but removing them reallly isn't a decision I understand. There have been enormous threads pleading for a way to gain XP in your main destiny, and here appears to be a nice object sold in the store to do it. I'd be positive about having an alternative way of acquiring them (dungeon tokens perhaps?) but at the moment I see this as a fun enhancing thing.

    Unintended effect: Enable God Mode (however that works) is not ideal, however, and should really disappear.

    All the real powergamers have capped their destinies anyway. Removing this item just loses Turbine money and hurts the more casual gamers. I think the best solution honestly is to work to remove whatever is going on with Enable God Mode but keep the other effect, if that is possible, as a genuine feature of the Shears, because it is genuinely an enabler for fun. And I am saying that as someone who hasn't even bothered with the things on my main melee FvS. But I could see that definitely enhancing my play experience more on a pure caster or a pure melee, and encourage me to play them more for a longer period of time. Which is what any MMO designer wants, right?

    I just don't really see why they feel an ability to gain epic destiny XP in an off destiny while playing your main destiny is so game breaking they have to nerf it. If anything it encourages the people who really care about such thngs to go for more and better twists and so extends playabilty. Not everyone TRs regularly, and moving from a main destiny to an off destiny definitely reduces fun and makes gaining XP a chore.

    Also, I'm Contrex's running partner, and it's definitely more fun to play with him in varied adventures in a capped destiny than go run fast XP quests 8367 times to get it over and done with
    Last edited by Terebinthia; 01-30-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    The harm comes when Turbine continues to add annoying and unpleasant features to the game with the express purpose of adding items to the DDO store expressly to avoid those features.
    This is a whole separate discussion and not really an argument against the need for a Shears-like feature. A lot could've been done differently with the expansion, but that ship has sailed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Being able to level any ED at full strength in your preferred ED is no different to getting a massive boost to the XP you earn, because you are able to earn it so much faster.
    So you don't have a quote of me or anyone else saying they want the ability to gain exp in multiple destinies at the same time and have thus changed your argument.
    What I'm asking has no influence over the total exp required to max all destinies. You don't even need rudimentary math skills to see that, so I'm not sure what difficulty you're having here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Its no different to saying you should be able to use an eSoS at the same level as a regular SoS. You are wanting to do something outside of what the game is meant to allow, so that you are far more powerful than you should be, while earning XP at a much quicker rate.
    You have, indeed, successfully countered your own strawman argument.

    I will reiterate again that I'm not asking to become more powerful than intended, rather the negation of the reduction in ability, allowing me to have fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    But it has a massive influence over the ease at which you can earn your XP.
    That statement is unbelievably detached from reality. Powergamers will continue to farm fast exp/min quests to quickly cap their destinies. Those who were forced into that solution and wish to switch will gain exp at a slower pace due to running a greater variety of quests that provide a slower rate of exp.
    Others, such as yourself, will see no change to their playstyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    How is capping every ED in the one life not an option that people choose to do?
    Wow, is that personal progress I see? You've finally realized we have options in this game. Can you stop forcing everyone to play it your way now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    From the wiki:
    "Allows you to switch your active epic destiny at a rest shrine during a quest so you don't have to wait until you can speak with a Fatespinner in a public area."

    Where in there does it say you can stay in one ED while levelling another?

    If someone has an SS of the actual item which states that you can stay in one ED while levelling another I will stand corrected.
    Would you care to put in the effort to read the entire paragraph before attempting to counter what I've said? Or are you willingly misrepresenting me.
    Gaining exp in a non-active destiny was clearly not an intended effect. It was brought about by using the item as intended and the player had no control over it.

    They have fixed this now, making your whole argument meaningless. Once again, I'm not objecting to the fix itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Of course it does. It was not meant to allow you to stay in one ED while levelling another.
    No, it wasn't. Which is exactly why I'm not asking for the fix to be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Do you not think the fact that you need to grind 15? million XP to cap all your EDs is a sign that maybe, just maybe, Turbine didnt expect people to cap all their EDs in a single life by chain running a single dungeon 200 times?
    Do you not think that the fact that TRing is optional is a sign that maybe, just maybe, Turbine doesn't force you to play in one single way and expect you to TR several times to gain power from Epic Destinies?

    Are you really incapable of seeing that that's not what everyone wants to do? Do you really think I'm going to TR each of my 16 toons because that's how you think I should play?

    You don't actually have the devs on your side here, Jasparion, you just like to think that in your effort to dictate how everyone else should enjoy the game.

    I'm not forcing you to stop TRing or change anything about how you play, I'd expect the same courtesy from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Because Im opposed to people exploiting, and Im opposed to terrible P2Win items being sold.
    Good for you. If you were really that opposed to P2W, you probably wouldn't have bought the massive increase in power that are EDs in the first place. You know, since you are a man of principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    If a large chunk of the playerbase exploits and ends up far more powerful than they should be, then claim the game is now "too easy" then Turbine ends up nerfing to make things harder for them, which then has a far bigger impact on those who werent cheating, and now will struggle even more to keep up.
    I would be more powerful now if I'd just farmed Rusted Blades or similar quests. You do realize that? In fact, I have gained nothing in terms of twists so far, but I have had a hell of a lot more fun while maintaining the prospect of gaining power in the future.

    Once again, since this seems difficult for you, I'm not asking for the return to the broken state of the item where you could gain more power than would otherwise be possible. I'm asking for the replication of the ability to have fun while grinding exp.

    This does not make the game any easier for me. People who legitimately farmed a single quest to max their destinies will be ahead regardless and your appeal to emotion here has no relevance to what's actually happening.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    You are misunderstanding?

    The intended purpose: switch destiny in quest. (whatever reason, xp being a really stupid one because you can only do it at a shrine)

    Bug1: stay in your current destiny, while gaining xp in another.

    Bug2: activate all destinies and become Voltron.

    I don't think anyone thinks bug 2 was kosher. Bug 1 on the other hand... absolutely legit and needed in game.

    I'm not going to try and explain it any more, it's simple, and apparently we are having communication issues on the topic.
    Bug 1 is not legit unless intended. Turbine showed their hand on this early on. Just because the majority of us wanted raid timers on older content lowered to say....1 day....didnt make people who found a way bypass it back in the day "legit". If we all think its needed in game (and most of us do) finding a way to do it when it is not intended is still going to have the same consequences as bug 2. Part of the communication issue stems from justifying something because its what the majority wants, even if it was not intended to work the way its being used.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post

    In any case I don't lame them... Businesses are run to make money... Not give away free stuff to mooches...... They will make money however is the most efficient way... You can go on saying that you KNOW exactly why they do everything, when you don't.

    Since the only correct answer that we all know for sure is that Turbine is in business to make money, and THAT is the pure motivation for everything they do.
    Here again you make a claim that I somehow dont understand their motivations and then show the easy refutation of that very claim, by clearly stating what I have been saying the entire time, throughout the last 2 years of my posting history on such topics. If they can make money on barrier circumvention, they are going to go that route, so instead of changing the game to suit the players desires, they will find a way to charge people for that change, and make it temporary, so we have to come back and re-up if we want to continue to experience it in that fashion.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Here again you make a claim that I somehow dont understand their motivations and then show the easy refutation of that very claim, by clearly stating what I have been saying the entire time, throughout the last 2 years of my posting history on such topics. If they can make money on barrier circumvention, they are going to go that route, so instead of changing the game to suit the players desires, they will find a way to charge people for that change, and make it temporary, so we have to come back and re-up if we want to continue to experience it in that fashion.

    Don't play...... Becaue they're aren't going to EVER listen to you...

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    That's because you aren't a designer that repeatedly fails to understand what is actually appealing to players.

    I'm guessing that the original reason for Shears was for players who forgot to visit the Epic trainer before stepping into a quest.

    "Oops! I forgot to swap destinies to the one that will be useful for this quest! Let's just Shear instead of recalling and restarting."

    ...completely failing to realize that players will want to remain in one destiny almost all the time because they built that character to take advantage of that destiny and don't want to run quests in an unappealing destiny.

    In most circumstances, I don't think that Turbine goes out of its way to make things annoying for players. But when they find that something is annoying or irritating, they have a choice. They can fix it for everyone. Or they can give us a way to pay to bypass/avoid that annoyance.

    Guess which one they'll chose.
    Oh....I suppose that is possible... maybe I was giving them too much credit

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    Funny thing about shears . . . Turbine knew that you could use them to level up bad EDs while staying with the power of good EDs. Multiple posts, which were later cubed, stated this. It was all but common knowledge at that point. Turbine had to be okay with that as they then put Shears on sale . . .

    . . . until the "unintended" other "stuff" got brought out into the open. That other "stuff" is clearly not WAI and now there are no more Shears.

    Turbine can learn from this, just sell something (doesn't matter what you call it) that will allow you to level up an ED while having the power of a different ED. There is a demand for it, people pay real money for it.

    Leveling up Magister on a fighter or Grand Master on a Wizard just sucks. It is an un-fun poorly-designed grind that people are willing to pay to avoid.

    Turbine, sell us a shear that lets us do that without the other "stuff" that's borderline game breaking. You store data from the old Shears will let you know if this would be profitable.
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  10. #70
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Don't play...... Becaue they're aren't going to EVER listen to you...
    Wheres that coming from. Ive provided no feedback in what you quoted as to my position on the topic, and have merely provided the business POV which will now be observed throughout the life of the game now that the primary focus is on store items. Note that while this agrees with your business POV it disagrees with your player POV you posted before, where youre observing they implemented "too much grind" - something I outlined is WAI.

    I enjoy the entire game, so I dont need to spend money to skip parts of it. I can play all I want and this causes me no anxiety whatsoever, personally. Those who only enjoy playing endgame are the target market audience of this incarnation of p2w, due to falling into the intended marketing scheme of feeling they need to level all destinies in the same character life. If people did not fall into that trap, this discussion topic would not exist, or if it did, it would be a footnote and not something that gets multiple threads on the forums per week.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Wheres that coming from. Ive provided no feedback in what you quoted as to my position on the topic, and have merely provided the business POV which will now be observed throughout the life of the game now that the primary focus is on store items. Note that while this agrees with your business POV it disagrees with your player POV you posted before, where youre observing they implemented "too much grind" - something I outlined is WAI.
    Not so... You can't say that they designed anything for any specific reason, other than the base reason of makign money as a for profit business does. Have you ever run a business for good or bad?

    I enjoy the entire game, so I dont need to spend money to skip parts of it. I can play all I want and this causes me no anxiety whatsoever, personally. Those who only enjoy playing endgame are the target market audience of this incarnation of p2w, due to falling into the intended marketing scheme of feeling they need to level all destinies in the same character life. If people did not fall into that trap, this discussion topic would not exist, or if it did, it would be a footnote and not something that gets multiple threads on the forums per week.

    Cool story...

  12. #72
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Not so... You can't say that they designed anything for any specific reason, other than the base reason of makign money as a for profit business does. Have you ever run a business for good or bad?
    I outlined how that is WAI, specifically for the intended purpose of making money. And yes, I can say they designed it for a specific reason, when Im like 20 for 20 in threads on these topics. People attempt to disagree, then in the near future we see them do exactly what I stated they would, for the purpose that even you agree they are going to do it for.

    Its not hard to see what the plan is really. When the 2 choices are to either design the game around the amount of grind the players want from the beginning for free, or design it with too much grind for free and then charge to mitigate grind. We have seen several incarnations of this already which are fully supported. Yes, we can say they design it for a specific reason, when we have seen that same specific reason of design play itself out now dozens of times. Once the formula is in place, the next step is mass production. They arent going to reinvent the wheel if the wheel is making them scads of money. They just need to keep it rolling.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-30-2013 at 10:36 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #73
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    Guys . . . please . . . for the love of all that is holy can you put each other on "ignore?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I outlined how that is WAI, specifically for the intended purpose of making money. And yes, I can say they designed it for a specific reason, when Im like 20 for 20 in threads on these topics. People attempt to disagree, then in the near future we see them do exactly what I stated they would, for the purpose that even you agree they are going to do it for.

    Its not hard to see what the plan is really. When the 2 choices are to either design the game around the amount of grind the players want from the beginning for free, or design it with too much grind for free and then charge to mitigate grind. We have seen several incarnations of this already which are fully supported. Yes, we can say they design it for a specific reason, when we have seen that same specific reason of design play itself out now dozens of times. Once the formula is in place, the next step is mass production. They arent going to reinvent the wheel if the wheel is making them scads of money. They just need to keep it rolling.

    Have you EVER run a business of any kind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Guys . . . please . . . for the love of all that is holy can you put each other on "ignore?"

    Or put a ring on it. One or the other. Either way stop bickering like old ladies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Guys . . . please . . . for the love of all that is holy can you put each other on "ignore?"

    You are not the boss of me..... Or anyone else for that matter

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    This is a whole separate discussion and not really an argument against the need for a Shears-like feature. A lot could've been done differently with the expansion, but that ship has sailed.
    I actually agree. I like the idea of a Shears-like feature. I just want it to be a feature that you can get access to by playing the game and not a feature that is designed to take you money so that you can avoid playing the game.

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    No shears = more Rusted Blades.

    That's pretty much it. We'll farm EEs on good EDs and run Rusted blades a few hours a week to make up for the lost XP.


    Shears meant people didn't need to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    No shears = more Rusted Blades.

    That's pretty much it. We'll farm EEs on good EDs and run Rusted blades a few hours a week to make up for the lost XP.


    Shears meant people didn't need to do that.
    That.

    Also, does no one else hear "Shears: Shears of Fate" when they look at this thread?

    Last edited by SableShadow; 01-30-2013 at 01:17 PM.
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  20. #80
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Have you EVER run a business of any kind?
    Absolutely, started in the early 90s, and its still successful today.

    If I had not, that doesnt add to or subtract from anything that gets said. People sometimes try to put up that credability front where if the person making a specific statement has not done a specific thing or received specific education that somehow equates to lack of cred on a specific issue, but most people understand that for what it is. Logic to refute said statement is lacking, so the cred attack commences. If the logic was present to refute said statement, questioning cred would not be necessary in the first place.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-30-2013 at 01:18 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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