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Thread: Shears of Fate

  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Meh, I don't think so... I believe they wanted to stretch the ED's out as much as possible.... Simply from a gaming standpoint.... I don't think they intentionally created the Shears to act in all the ways they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Companies sell things that are in demand.... Smart companies also CREATE demand for the items they sell. This is the way it is..... Welcome to the REAL world....
    You actually answered your own question. The second post agrees with what I am saying. The first one contradicts it. I note that in one you are speaking from a player POV while in the other youre speaking from a business POV.

    I do believe that you do clearly understand that epic XP being implemented as "too much grind" is WAI, due to what you stated in your second post. In order to sell us grind mitigation, there needs to be a demand for that, which they have created.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-29-2013 at 03:57 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
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    I'd buy the "new" shears to level an ED while in my "main" ED.

    ED are not TR lives, some just do not work with some classes.

    A new item to do what the shears used to do would be great.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq View Post
    ...we will be seeing fewer screen shots of solod epic raids since the Shear "Feature" was removed.
    But it does open up an interesting new challenge for all those who have solo'd raids. Assuming the next step is a reset to force people in to one ED only (the sooner this happens the better), it would be fun to see how many could now revisit the raids and solo them again.

  4. #44
    Community Member Contrex's Avatar
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    I just wish Turbine realized it's not fun having to give up the core of your build for a minor boost along the line. When you have a working destiny, leveling a different one that doesn't work with your build at all is unbelievably demoralizing.

    I'm not going to grind Rusted Blades, so come U18 I will shelve one of my favorite toons. I didn't buy Shears to become more powerful than otherwise possible. I bought them to be able to enjoy the grind that I don't even need to go through in the first place.

    Hopefully they will listen to reason and provide us with the ability to gain exp in a non-active destiny. I'd pay for it and I'd even be OK with it coming with an exp penalty.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    I just wish Turbine realized it's not fun having to give up the core of your build for a minor boost along the line. When you have a working destiny, leveling a different one that doesn't work with your build at all is unbelievably demoralizing.
    I disagree. Its annoying, but you just put up with it, and search hard for anything in the ED which may help your current build (things which boost AC, boost Reflex save, Stat buffs, etc).

    No different to doing Completionist knowing you have a few lives you wont enjoy. Some may go for multiple +5 woods, but most just grin and bear it.

    Or running 20 raids because you have terrible luck so hold out for the item you want being on the 20th reward list (then not seeing it and deciding whether to do another 20).

    The game is full of these sort of challenges. For people to knowingly cheat just to get to the end quicker really is just plain wrong. And Turbine should not just have removed the Shears from the store (they should have removed them far earlier - but its obvious they were enjoying the extra sales), they should also do something to reset the EDs of those who had used them.

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    Completionist is totally different.

    Your may hate the palidin class but you can make a funtional build with one.

    A sorc or wizard in GMoF or Dreadnaught or many others, get little to no power from those trees.

    One may not be fun for you, but the other is just broken toy that waves the "good" toy in your face.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptGrim View Post
    Completionist is totally different.

    Your may hate the palidin class but you can make a funtional build with one.

    A sorc or wizard in GMoF or Dreadnaught or many others, get little to no power from those trees.

    One may not be fun for you, but the other is just broken toy that waves the "good" toy in your face.
    Functional or not, if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it.

    Turbine isnt forcing anyone to level all their EDs in a single life. I very much doubt they expected too many would, either. And if the Shears hadnt been broken, I dare say a lot would not have bothered.

    Each life I get a couple of EDs. They may or may not be appropriate for the class I am playing, but as I said, I find a few things which can help. Then I change ED and repeat it. You only need 3 or 4 tiers before you can move on as well, meaning you can cap the ED at a future time when playing an appropriate class. And that is not a huge amount of XP.

    There is certainly no reason to go beyond Tier 4 in an ED you dont need. I doubt too many would be taking a Tier 4 Twist from an ED they dont want or need. Would any take a Tier 5? (Im not even sure if Tier 5 is possible.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Functional or not, if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it.

    Turbine isnt forcing anyone to level all their EDs in a single life. I very much doubt they expected too many would, either. And if the Shears hadnt been broken, I dare say a lot would not have bothered.

    Each life I get a couple of EDs. They may or may not be appropriate for the class I am playing, but as I said, I find a few things which can help. Then I change ED and repeat it. You only need 3 or 4 tiers before you can move on as well, meaning you can cap the ED at a future time when playing an appropriate class. And that is not a huge amount of XP.

    There is certainly no reason to go beyond Tier 4 in an ED you dont need. I doubt too many would be taking a Tier 4 Twist from an ED they dont want or need. Would any take a Tier 5? (Im not even sure if Tier 5 is possible.)
    TRing is not the only end game, many would rather stay at 25 then to TR. These are the same people that want to continue to advance through many(all) the EDs. It is a complete waste of time. Farming rusted blades is preferrable to playing in a non existant ED.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptGrim View Post
    TRing is not the only end game, many would rather stay at 25 then to TR. These are the same people that want to continue to advance through many(all) the EDs. It is a complete waste of time. Farming rusted blades is preferrable to playing in a non existant ED.
    If you are staying at 25, then why do you need to cap all EDs?

    Surely only your active one (and maybe another to change to on occasion but even then the situational improvement is not going to matter an enormous amount) matters, plus the minimum required to get a Twist from the other ones you want.

    The only time EDs cost a huge amount of XP is if you want to cap them all in one life. And there is simply no need to do that. If you choose to do it, then it is a choice of yours alone. And noone is forcing you to take Twists from across the entire ED map. If it really is such an issue, Twist easier choices.

  10. #50
    Community Member Contrex's Avatar
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    Jasparion, you are failing to understand that not everyone plays nor thinks like you. What harm do you see in providing this ability to players who are willing to pay for it? Assuming, of course, it is fixed so you only get the abilities of one destiny.

    You have already admitted you think it's annoying to level an off-destiny. I assume that you do not find annoying things particularly fun.
    So I can further extrapolate that your disagreement stems from a lack of experience with the frustration that players who bought the Shears for the purpose I described encountered.

    I'd like you to follow along here. I have no intention of TRing the toon I mentioned. I leveled his primary destiny and it meshes perfectly with his build. I already perform great in Epic Elites, so I don't particularly need to grind for twists. To level a different destiny would just make him incomplete and sub-par, and play completely differently. And since grinding Rusted-Blades-like quests is off-putting to me, the ability to retain the abilities of my main destiny is fundamental to me bothering to grind out the twists.

    Does that make sense to you?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Jasparion, you are failing to understand that not everyone plays nor thinks like you. What harm do you see in providing this ability to players who are willing to pay for it? Assuming, of course, it is fixed so you only get the abilities of one destiny.

    You have already admitted you think it's annoying to level an off-destiny. I assume that you do not find annoying things particularly fun.
    So I can further extrapolate that your disagreement stems from a lack of experience with the frustration that players who bought the Shears for the purpose I described encountered.

    I'd like you to follow along here. I have no intention of TRing the toon I mentioned. I leveled his primary destiny and it meshes perfectly with his build. I already perform great in Epic Elites, so I don't particularly need to grind for twists. To level a different destiny would just make him incomplete and sub-par, and play completely differently. And since grinding Rusted-Blades-like quests is off-putting to me, the ability to retain the abilities of my main destiny is fundamental to me bothering to grind out the twists.

    Does that make sense to you?
    It does all make sense. But where do you draw the line at paying for things? A Regular Shear to level 1 ED while in another, an Improved Shear to level 3? A Super Shear to level all of them? The Uber Mega Shear which instantly caps all EDs for the low-low price of 8,000 TP?

    And if you draw the line somewhere, what dictates that arbitrary point? And we arent even getting in to Fate Point tomes from the store. Will we soon see +3 and +4 tomes on sale?

    Im pretty sure EDs were never meant to be all capped in a single life. If you can point to a Turbine rep stating that they did expect this, then I'd happily take it all back.

    Levelling the EDs you dont want does not take a huge amount of time. I say this as someone who TRd a Rogue/Wizard with not even a single Tier in Magister, in to a Human FvS who now needs to go all the way to Exalted Angel to get to the one best suited to me (or I could go to Shiradi which will take a similar amount of time).

    I dont plan on TR'ing either, though it may end up that I need to.

    My main started in Magister and has worked around to Leg Dreadnought through a Sorc life, Bard life, and Paladin life. Most of the EDs were earned as a Paladin (Shadowdancer, Grandmaster, and a bit of Leg Dreadnought). I found things which helped my build and went for those (mostly Stat buffs, Save buffs).

    My current life is Rogue but I probably wont touch Shadowdancer or Grandmaster and will probably head towards Shiradi. My next life is Druid and I have no idea where I will go there.

    EDs for your current class are great. Fate points are an optional extra.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Jasparion, you are failing to understand that not everyone plays nor thinks like you. What harm do you see in providing this ability to players who are willing to pay for it? Assuming, of course, it is fixed so you only get the abilities of one destiny.

    You have already admitted you think it's annoying to level an off-destiny. I assume that you do not find annoying things particularly fun.
    So I can further extrapolate that your disagreement stems from a lack of experience with the frustration that players who bought the Shears for the purpose I described encountered.

    I'd like you to follow along here. I have no intention of TRing the toon I mentioned. I leveled his primary destiny and it meshes perfectly with his build. I already perform great in Epic Elites, so I don't particularly need to grind for twists. To level a different destiny would just make him incomplete and sub-par, and play completely differently. And since grinding Rusted-Blades-like quests is off-putting to me, the ability to retain the abilities of my main destiny is fundamental to me bothering to grind out the twists.

    Does that make sense to you?
    Your post makes sense, but it doesnt outline what was actually happening. People are talking about two different issues here.

    -being able to grind xp for one destiny while in another.
    -the exploit, which is not related to the other issue.

    Wanting to be able to do the former, does not justify the latter. Turbine laid down that law back in the Reavers Fate endgame days.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-29-2013 at 06:53 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    It does all make sense. But where do you draw the line at paying for things? A Regular Shear to level 1 ED while in another, an Improved Shear to level 3? A Super Shear to level all of them? The Uber Mega Shear which instantly caps all EDs for the low-low price of 8,000 TP?

    And if you draw the line somewhere, what dictates that arbitrary point? And we arent even getting in to Fate Point tomes from the store. Will we soon see +3 and +4 tomes on sale?
    This is a complete strawman. There is an obvious difference between adding a new tool to effectively reduce exp requirements and the ability to choose where your exp goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Im pretty sure EDs were never meant to be all capped in a single life. If you can point to a Turbine rep stating that they did expect this, then I'd happily take it all back.
    And why do you assume that TRing is now the intended way to play this game? Why do you assume the devs dictate what we should do with our toons in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Levelling the EDs you dont want does not take a huge amount of time. I say this as someone who TRd a Rogue/Wizard with not even a single Tier in Magister, in to a Human FvS who now needs to go all the way to Exalted Angel to get to the one best suited to me (or I could go to Shiradi which will take a similar amount of time).

    I dont plan on TR'ing either, though it may end up that I need to.
    Leveling through destinies to get to the one you want and grinding out twists after you have gained and perfected your build with your intended main destiny are two different feats.
    One does not entail the substantial loss in ability and playstyle like the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    My main started in Magister and has worked around to Leg Dreadnought through a Sorc life, Bard life, and Paladin life. Most of the EDs were earned as a Paladin (Shadowdancer, Grandmaster, and a bit of Leg Dreadnought). I found things which helped my build and went for those (mostly Stat buffs, Save buffs).

    My current life is Rogue but I probably wont touch Shadowdancer or Grandmaster and will probably head towards Shiradi. My next life is Druid and I have no idea where I will go there.
    Again, you are approaching this from a different perspective and lack of experience with what made me buy Shears in the first place. Providing the ability to choose which destiny gets the exp does not infringe upon your playstyle of grinding out destinies through TRing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    EDs for your current class are great. Fate points are an optional extra.
    Indeed. And the current system of obtaining them is prohibitive to a subset of players. You may not see yourself as part of them, but that does not make the system less flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Your post makes sense, but it doesnt outline what was actually happening. People are talking about two different issues here.

    -being able to grind xp for one destiny while in another.
    -the exploit, which is not related to the other issue.

    Wanting to be able to do the former, does not justify the latter. Turbine laid down that law back in the Reavers Fate endgame days.
    I already stated my reasons for using the Shears and that's what I'm petitioning for.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting a return to exactly how the Shears worked before, namely the ability to gain power from multiple destinies at once. That was clearly broken.

    I'm not objecting to Turbine fixing the Shears as they worked so far. Instead, my arguments are geared towards providing us with a new item or feature that allows us to choose where our exp goes.
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  14. #54
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    This is why we ED farm though.

    As a guildie of mine just said to me last night ...

    "There ... my Wizard just suffered through LD. That was a long and boring 90 minutes."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    This is a complete strawman. There is an obvious difference between adding a new tool to effectively reduce exp requirements and the ability to choose where your exp goes.
    Actually Im pretty sure this is what people are wanting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    And why do you assume that TRing is now the intended way to play this game? Why do you assume the devs dictate what we should do with our toons in the first place?
    Because we cant just get d12 hit dice on our 100 DC Insta-kill caster toons. There are limits set in place, and those limits are set by Turbine.

    If you want to do things outside of the scope they had planned, then you take all the risks associated with it. Can you point to a time or place where they said that it was their plan that players would cap every single ED in a single life, and that it should be done in such a way that you can remain in your favoured ED at all times?


    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Leveling through destinies to get to the one you want and grinding out twists after you have gained and perfected your build with your intended main destiny are two different feats.
    One does not entail the substantial loss in ability and playstyle like the other.
    Kind of like wanting to play a high DC caster, but first going 3xBarb, 3xPally for those benefits. You go through something you dont want, so that in the end you get what you do want.

    Or someone who only wants to play at end game having to first level to 20, then 25.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Again, you are approaching this from a different perspective and lack of experience with what made me buy Shears in the first place. Providing the ability to choose which destiny gets the exp does not infringe upon your playstyle of grinding out destinies through TRing.
    But you bought those Shears knowing they were not WAI? You used an exploit and now want Turbine to make that exploit a permanent feature?

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Indeed. And the current system of obtaining them is prohibitive to a subset of players. You may not see yourself as part of them, but that does not make the system less flawed.
    So the solution is to sell stuff to make it easier for those unwilling to put in a bit of effort? As voodoogroves above said, it just takes a little time to farm the EDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a return to exactly how the Shears worked before, namely the ability to gain power from multiple destinies at once. That was clearly broken.
    And what you want them to do was also clearly broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    I'm not objecting to Turbine fixing the Shears as they worked so far. Instead, my arguments are geared towards providing us with a new item or feature that allows us to choose where our exp goes.
    Which is fair enough. Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion or make a suggestion. I just happen to think that this is a bad idea.

  16. #56
    Community Member Contrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Actually Im pretty sure this is what people are wanting.
    Really? I must have missed that. Can you quote me where in this thread has someone stated they want are petitioning for an ability to gain exp in multiple destinies at the same time?
    In fact, since you're having this discussion with me, would you care to point out where I made such a request?

    What I'm asking has no influence over the total destiny exp requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Because we cant just get d12 hit dice on our 100 DC Insta-kill caster toons. There are limits set in place, and those limits are set by Turbine.

    If you want to do things outside of the scope they had planned, then you take all the risks associated with it. Can you point to a time or place where they said that it was their plan that players would cap every single ED in a single life, and that it should be done in such a way that you can remain in your favoured ED at all times?
    And this in no way explains how the optional TR system has somehow, in your mind, become a mandatory part of gameplay. Can you, instead of constructing strawman arguments, point me to where the devs have stated that TRing is a required part of the game and EDs can only be gained over multiple lives?
    It must be easy for you, considering how certain you are that we have - and aren't intended to have - no freedom in the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Kind of like wanting to play a high DC caster, but first going 3xBarb, 3xPally for those benefits. You go through something you dont want, so that in the end you get what you do want.

    Or someone who only wants to play at end game having to first level to 20, then 25.
    I see this continues to be difficult for you to grasp. If TRing is the only perspective you're capable of seeing, then I'll offer a more appropriate analogy.
    It's more akin to getting 3 wizard lives and a final build that excels at what you wanted it to be, then using the exact same stats, feats and equipment to add on a paladin life. Sure, it's possible, but it's neither fun nor effective and plays completely differently.

    The leveling process is one of constant improvement. Getting twists is a significant step back for relatively minor gains. Again, big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    But you bought those Shears knowing they were not WAI? You used an exploit and now want Turbine to make that exploit a permanent feature?
    I used the item exactly how instructed and intended. It had an unintended consequence I found desirable. I'm not requesting the fix to be reversed, rather the unintended feature that I - and most others - bought the item for to be available in some form.

    This has nothing to do with exploiting to gain an unfair advantage and more power than intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    So the solution is to sell stuff to make it easier for those unwilling to put in a bit of effort? As voodoogroves above said, it just takes a little time to farm the EDs.
    The only effort in grinding the EDs is in not clawing your eyes out after the 200th Rusted Blades run. Perhaps the current solution the playerbase has come up with is somehow desirable in your mind.
    Those who can tolerate it will continue to farm quick exp quests for their destiny exp, and others such as yourself will continue TRing and adding on some epic exp every life. This is merely an option for those of us who wish to do neither, but would be motivated to farm some twists.
    Despite your great desire to do so for others, this option would not - and indeed has not - infringe upon your ability to enjoy the game as you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion or make a suggestion. I just happen to think that this is a bad idea.
    Would you care to detail how such an option is broken and a bad idea and why its re-implementation would have a negative impact on your play experience?

    This whole matter clearly has no relevance to you, yet you fight it as if it did. I'd like to know why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    I'm sorry... what?
    He's talking about the Farmville effect.

    Turbine adds in artificial annoyances that no one enjoys and then gives us the opportunity to purchase a bypass to those annoyances in the DDO store.

    Shears (in their exploity form since their "official" use is worthless), Tomes of Fate (to skip leveling destinies that you only level in order to get those fate points), XP pots, XP tomes, Raid timer cooldown bypasses, single use quest difficulty unlocks, orbs of XP available for purchase, etc.

    I'm sure more will come as Turbine thinks of more things that they can use to annoy us and then bypass with a purchase.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrex View Post
    Jasparion, you are failing to understand that not everyone plays nor thinks like you. What harm do you see in providing this ability to players who are willing to pay for it?
    The harm comes when Turbine continues to add annoying and unpleasant features to the game with the express purpose of adding items to the DDO store expressly to avoid those features.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Why would you switch your destinies mid quest except to be able to run in one and then switch to collect XP in the other?

    I have to think that was the intended purpose. I can't conceive of any other possible use for them.
    That's because you aren't a designer that repeatedly fails to understand what is actually appealing to players.

    I'm guessing that the original reason for Shears was for players who forgot to visit the Epic trainer before stepping into a quest.

    "Oops! I forgot to swap destinies to the one that will be useful for this quest! Let's just Shear instead of recalling and restarting."

    ...completely failing to realize that players will want to remain in one destiny almost all the time because they built that character to take advantage of that destiny and don't want to run quests in an unappealing destiny.

    In most circumstances, I don't think that Turbine goes out of its way to make things annoying for players. But when they find that something is annoying or irritating, they have a choice. They can fix it for everyone. Or they can give us a way to pay to bypass/avoid that annoyance.

    Guess which one they'll chose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You actually answered your own question. The second post agrees with what I am saying. The first one contradicts it. I note that in one you are speaking from a player POV while in the other youre speaking from a business POV.
    I always speak with a business sense in mind... And just becasue I may not like soemthing as a customer doesn't mean I don't understand why a business takes certain actions or has certain policies.

    I do believe that you do clearly understand that epic XP being implemented as "too much grind" is WAI, due to what you stated in your second post. In order to sell us grind mitigation, there needs to be a demand for that, which they have created.
    Of course there has to be a reason to buy something that mitigates something else. Where I isagree is that they specifically designed it that way when it comes to epic XP. They would sell those items whether the rate needed to cap was high or not, and people woudl still buy them. The reason they set the bar so high on the ED's was an attemot to spread to power curve over a longer period of time.. It creates more gaming hours for their investment... More bang for THEIR buck....

    In any case I don't lame them... Businesses are run to make money... Not give away free stuff to mooches...... They will make money however is the most efficient way... You can go on saying that you KNOW exactly why they do everything, when you don't. Since the only correct answer that we all know for sure is that Turbine is in business to make money, and THAT is the pure motivation for everything they do.

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