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Thread: Shears of Fate

  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    There's no demand for the intended purpose.
    Which creates a demand for them to create another item that mitigates what people are really complaining about, too much grind.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    I'm sorry... what?
    soap box. It's his "thing."

  3. #23
    Community Member HouseAtreides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    soap box. It's his "thing."
    I see that now, I've been gone a few years.



    Chai, that post was a little tinfoil hat-ish don't you think? I doubt there is some conspiracy going on, just ineptitude concerning wants of the players.
    AoK

  4. #24
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    As for the topic: I was sort of privy to some chicanery going on with the shears but have been to busy TRing over and over to pay attention to it. I didn't really find grinding out all the epic xp that terribly horrible...

    Oh wait, I think because I shut down all emotion and stood on a bell for whole evenings at a time, I forgot.

    I say bring back some of the Challenge xp buffs... er un-nerf 'em... with random rewards being so unpopular, it might make for some more running of them.

    I for one have not even touched them, there are a few cool items but nothing enticing enough imho. Emeril Lagasse that xp and BAM, there might be more reason to run them.
    Last edited by Sonos; 01-29-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    I see that now, I've been gone a few years.



    Chai, that post was a little tinfoil hat-ish don't you think? I doubt there is some conspiracy going on, just ineptitude concerning wants of the players.
    Its not conspiracy, its standard marketing. In order for it to work it requires the support of the majority of the population. Had they raised the XP requirement for TR2+ lives on the same day that XP pots and tomes came out, the riots on the forums would have never ended, so they arbitrarily create a grind situation people will complain about, wait for the complaining to happen, then later on sell them the tools to mitigate that grind - and the forumites rejoiced. Then once this succeeds, it becomes formulaic.

    What I am pointing out is that since the vast majority of the gaming population was in full support of this the first time it happened, why would Turbine change their tactics the second time? The difference is semantic, heroic XP grind -vs- epic XP grind. If forumites complain about the epic XP grind, the "solution" is going to be the same as it was for the arbitrarily high heroic XP grind, pay to mitigate it. The "too much epic XP grind" is WAI - by design. Its not an accident. When they start selling you ways to mitigate "too much grind" youll see why. Theres no conspiracy about it, as its right out in the open now that its fully supported by the vast majority of the DDO population.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #26
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    I worded that very, very poorly. I meant, buy them in game for something like half the token cost of a true heart. or less, whatever. Would give another use to the soon to be very niche epic tokens.
    Ah... yes I agree, selling them for epic tokens would be fine with me. Although still not in the broken state. If that's how they want ED to work then it should just work that way without the payment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not conspiracy, its standard marketing. .
    /waives

    Hi Chai, look, I'm almost on your side for this thread

  7. #27
    Community Member rabrams99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseatreides View Post
    using an item from the store as its instructions tell you to is an exploit? No.

    Shears had unintended effects, going well past what most people think they were. Fix those, then let us level one destiny while in another. I don't give a rip about having multiple destinies active, i hate the absurd grind fest that leveling an off destiny turns into, and think a paid item that helps me avoid that was fine.
    this^^^
    Thando, Aarag, Keallen, Kuthroat, Sureshott, Skullcrusher

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    But a pay-to-win (and really, this would be the definition of p2w) solution that lets you get around deliberately put in place (even if dumb) restrictions on your power? No, that should not be allowed.
    Isn't that basically every p2p adventure pack? We pay for advantage. In a free game, advantage is probably one of the few things that can have a real life value placed upon it. You don't need to get shears, you don't need to buy adventure packs; infact, you don't need hats, pink hair or armor kits. If this is the case, why do these things have a market? Because while some things are desirable, other activities are not only undesirable, but can be considered a waste of time. Granted, all time spent in a game can be considered wasted, but lets be subjective. We pay to access what we desire, and pay to bypass what we don't desire. If you work 50 hours a week, and have money, but very little game time as a result, would you feel like you paid to win while buying raid bypasses to get into a raid when it fit into your schedule? If you had farmed out raid gear, would you be upset if a TR meant your raid loot was completely unavailable until you TR back to the class you initially pulled the gear on? Buying adventure packs allows you access to gear and XP that is normally not available without a vast amount of invested time. Some people have more time than money. Others have more money than time. The P2W myth is a battle of justification between those who have time, and those who have money. As long as both sides of the argument exist, both will believe they are correct.

    People want to play the game instead of work on checklists. More options, more fun, less restriction, less doom. People often talk about how they 'have nothing to do' once they finish their gear sets. WHAT? Are you confusing this game with some kind of "Dungeons an Dragons Item Collector Database: Online"? Once you complete your toon, you are supposed to play the game, as a whole, and enjoy it. Somewhere in the past few years, it seems to have turned into a race to get all the best items and quit playing. WHAT? Why bother investing the time initially if you plan to walk away at the end?

    The devs might not be willing/able to fix bugs that hinder players, but you can guarantee they'll figure a way to remove bugs that empower players. The only thing hurt by this alleged exploit is dev image, for once again failing to do their job. I hope these coders won't be involved with nanotechnology one day in the future, or we may all wind up dead.

    I'm only posting in this thread because I hate seeing the same, well founded complaints day after day, while any form of "exploit" is the enemy and must be addressed. These 'Exploits' are just features of the game discovered by more competent people than those who initially coded the intended feature. Honestly, I believe the people who reverse engineer these exploits should be hired, for they're clearly more capable than those who engineer these exploits and lack the knowledge to comprehend what they've created.

    Finally, since the shears are obviously not available any longer, are we allowed to discuss what the actual exploit was? From this thread, it sounds like it gave people a way to level lame destinies while staying in their main. To me, this seems like an item that was tailor-made for the ddo store. Who wouldn't pay to remain effective and retain what you've rightfully earned, while trying to get fate points? In fact, sign me up. Who's slave must I become to get an item in DDO store that allows me to stay in main while leveling a completely useless destiny? Was shears secretly the equivalent of yellow dopant for EDs? Do we consider Yellow Dopant an exploit or a feature? Wasn't bypassing raid timers once considered an exploit? Now its a major part of the in-game economy.

    TL;DR As an uninvolved third party, I feel this is a serious subject and deserves more open debate.

    Edit: Also I think I almost completely agree with Chai. Almost, in the respect that I fully agree but am totally fine with paying for that. If you don't believe advantage is marketable, what would you have them sell that will keep them in the green each quarter while triyng to maintain this 7 yr old dying game? Do you think this game can survive on merely armor kits and premium adventure pack purchases?

    Time is money. Money is time. Pick which you want to spend. You'll spend which ever you have more of.
    Last edited by Eighnuss; 01-29-2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: chai reply

  9. #29
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eighnuss View Post
    From this thread, it sounds like it gave people a way to level lame destinies while staying in their main.
    That was the INTENDED purpose of the shears. They were however quite broken and you could do something we shall not discuss to make ALL your destinies active at the same time while putting the XP whereever you wanted it.

  10. #30
    Community Member HouseAtreides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    That was the INTENDED purpose of the shears. They were however quite broken and you could do something we shall not discuss to make ALL your destinies active at the same time while putting the XP whereever you wanted it.
    No. Both of these things were bugs. The INTENDED purpose was to switch your destiny in a quest. That is IT.

    Now maybe you understand why we keep saying there is no market for this? How often would you do that? Mostly never?
    AoK

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HouseAtreides View Post
    No. Both of these things were bugs. The INTENDED purpose was to switch your destiny in a quest. That is IT.

    Now maybe you understand why we keep saying there is no market for this? How often would you do that? Mostly never?
    Why would you switch your destinies mid quest except to be able to run in one and then switch to collect XP in the other?

    I have to think that was the intended purpose. I can't conceive of any other possible use for them.

    Do you have anything from an official source to point at that indicates there was any use other than switch for xp intended?

  12. #32
    2016 DDO Players Council kinggartk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    But a pay-to-win (and really, this would be the definition of p2w) solution that lets you get around deliberately put in place (even if dumb) restrictions on your power? No, that should not be allowed.
    Disagree...not pay to win. Pay to have fun!!! You can still win (Level up all destinies) with out paying this fee.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggartk View Post
    Disagree...not pay to win. Pay to have fun!!! You can still win (Level up all destinies) with out paying this fee.
    With the exploit active you could have access to all destinies at once.

    For free you could be level 25 but in a useless destiny and be less useful than an exploit powered L21.

    The ONLY way to achieve that all destinies active was by paying to use the shears.

    These things mean its P2W as there is no way to achieve the same result without paying. No amount of play time could give you 10 active destinies.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not conspiracy, its standard marketing. In order for it to work it requires the support of the majority of the population. Had they raised the XP requirement for TR2+ lives on the same day that XP pots and tomes came out, the riots on the forums would have never ended, so they arbitrarily create a grind situation people will complain about, wait for the complaining to happen, then later on sell them the tools to mitigate that grind - and the forumites rejoiced. Then once this succeeds, it becomes formulaic.

    What I am pointing out is that since the vast majority of the gaming population was in full support of this the first time it happened, why would Turbine change their tactics the second time? The difference is semantic, heroic XP grind -vs- epic XP grind. If forumites complain about the epic XP grind, the "solution" is going to be the same as it was for the arbitrarily high heroic XP grind, pay to mitigate it. The "too much epic XP grind" is WAI - by design. Its not an accident. When they start selling you ways to mitigate "too much grind" youll see why. Theres no conspiracy about it, as its right out in the open now that its fully supported by the vast majority of the DDO population.

    Business is business.... You really think that this kind of thinking isn't common?

    There's nothing wrong or even unethical about it...... Do I wish they acted differently sure, but having run my own businesses, and worked within many others in some VERY truly unethical industries,.... Turbine isn't even close to any kind of ethical redline.. Nor is it even remotely dishonest.... In fact your local grocery store is likely pulling more shenanighans than Turbine ever does...

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eighnuss View Post
    Edit: Also I think I almost completely agree with Chai. Almost, in the respect that I fully agree but am totally fine with paying for that. If you don't believe advantage is marketable, what would you have them sell that will keep them in the green each quarter while triyng to maintain this 7 yr old dying game? Do you think this game can survive on merely armor kits and premium adventure pack purchases?

    Time is money. Money is time. Pick which you want to spend. You'll spend which ever you have more of.
    There are still games that are content driven that can and do stay on the good side of profit margin by pushing content which people pay for, but in this game, that emphasis has changed to what you describe. Selling advantage. Whether this is good or not is going to change on an individual by individual basis as people each draw the line for what they are willing to tolerate in a different spot. The point being made here is its not going to change now that they have fully committed to selling advantage as a marketing tactic - its here to stay.

    People commenting that the epic XP grind is too much are going to be met with items they can buy in the store to mitigate that grind, which is exactly how the same complaints about heroic XP were answered. Some are also acting surprised in various conversations that Turbine would still do this after the "errors" made with heroic XP, and what needs to be understood there is that those arent "errors" at all, but fully WAI as part of the more recent marketing scheme the game now runs on. The more eyebleeding the grind is, the more apt we all are to pay to mitigate it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #36
    Community Member HouseAtreides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Why would you switch your destinies mid quest except to be able to run in one and then switch to collect XP in the other?

    I have to think that was the intended purpose. I can't conceive of any other possible use for them.

    Do you have anything from an official source to point at that indicates there was any use other than switch for xp intended?
    You are misunderstanding?

    The intended purpose: switch destiny in quest. (whatever reason, xp being a really stupid one because you can only do it at a shrine)

    Bug1: stay in your current destiny, while gaining xp in another.

    Bug2: activate all destinies and become Voltron.

    I don't think anyone thinks bug 2 was kosher. Bug 1 on the other hand... absolutely legit and needed in game.

    I'm not going to try and explain it any more, it's simple, and apparently we are having communication issues on the topic.
    AoK

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    (snip useless words) The more eyebleeding the grind is, the more apt we all are to pay to mitigate it.

    Or just ignore it and the pathetic souls who desperately place thier egos in a big pile on top of it and don't bother, getting ED xp as it comes and not giving a flying rats behind about being all uber....

    In edit.... This game is plenty big enough for people who dont' like something to play around it or to choose not to use it..... Companies sell things that are in demand.... Smart companies also CREATE demand for the items they sell. This is the way it is..... Welcome to the REAL world....
    Last edited by smatt; 01-29-2013 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Business is business.... You really think that this kind of thinking isn't common?

    There's nothing wrong or even unethical about it...... Do I wish they acted differently sure, but having run my own businesses, and worked within many others in some VERY truly unethical industries,.... Turbine isn't even close to any kind of ethical redline.. Nor is it even remotely dishonest.... In fact your local grocery store is likely pulling more shenanighans than Turbine ever does...
    My post had nothing to do with ethics whatsoever, and was more along the lines of people complaining about the epic XP being too much of a grind acting like its a "mistake" made by Turbine, when in fact its WAI, because in order to get people to pay to mitigate the grind, they first need to implement "too much grind" - the same way this was done with heroic XP - this has become standard marketing in microtransaction games, and since weve seen this several times already in DDO, we shouldnt be surprised.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Or just ignore it and the pathetic souls who desperately place thier egos in a big pile on top of it and don't bother, getting ED xp as it comes and not giving a flying rats behind about being all uber....

    In edit.... This game is plenty big enough for people who dont' like something to play around it or to choose not to use it..... Companies sell things that are in demand.... Smart companies also CREATE demand for the items they sell. This is the way it is..... Welcome to the REAL world....
    Those people youre suggesting to ignore, are also paying customers, so this is not a wise decision from a business standpoint. Turbine tries to cater to all playstyles, rather than catering to one at the cost of others.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    My post had nothing to do with ethics whatsoever, and was more along the lines of people complaining about the epic XP being too much of a grind acting like its a "mistake" made by Turbine, when in fact its WAI, because in order to get people to pay to mitigate the grind, they first need to implement "too much grind" - the same way this was done with heroic XP - this has become standard marketing in microtransaction games, and since weve seen this several times already in DDO, we shouldnt be surprised.
    Meh, I don't think so... I believe they wanted to stretch the ED's out as much as possible.... Simply from a gaming standpoint.... I don't think they intentionally created the Shears to act in all the ways they did. They just chose to ignore the abstract use of them, along the same lines that they've ignored sometimes for more than a year shortcuts in certain quests to only comeback at some point and fix them. Hint: They intentionally leave umm interesting things in this game, they always have.. And it's likely MOST games do so...

    Is your theory of creating situations where you can buy your way aorund things valid.. Maybe... But you see, I don't care.... "I" make my own choices on what I do and don't do... In the last 3 weeks I've traded 20 mil plat that I obtained in perfectly 100% legitimate ways for 12,500 TP's. I don't pay Turbine a penny for them, someone else did... And I don't care... I will spend those points on what I feel like spending them on, stuff that enhances MY fun... I don't care what you do or dont' do for YOUR fun... I wish more people would consider THAT kind of point of view...

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