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  1. #1
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    Default Spring Attack vs THFing?

    I had this idea that what if I took the Spring Attack line on a barbarian? The +7% dodge would stack with Uncanny and Dun'Robar rings to provide 16% dodge. Combined with blur and incorporeal bonuses, we're looking at a good 1 in 3 hits being negated due to these bonues. On a toon who mostly uses cleave, lay waste, and momentum swing, is there any good reason to keep the thfing line over the dodge line?

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    Community Member DaSawks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varashad View Post
    I had this idea that what if I took the Spring Attack line on a barbarian? The +7% dodge would stack with Uncanny and Dun'Robar rings to provide 16% dodge. Combined with blur and incorporeal bonuses, we're looking at a good 1 in 3 hits being negated due to these bonues. On a toon who mostly uses cleave, lay waste, and momentum swing, is there any good reason to keep the thfing line over the dodge line?
    Close but not close enough. Keep the 2HF line. Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack stack with the Dun'Robar rings but both are capped by your Max Dex Bonus. If you are willing to sacrifice DPS for the chance to not be hit then I have to ask "how is your survivability"? Try a Dun'Robar ring with a Mobility crafted item and compair them to the max bonus of your Dex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    No, although VIP players do get free Gold rolls on Daily Dice, so that might fit into your criteria. But when it comes to chest drops, chain rewards, general Daily Dice rolls (what number you get), etc., VIP does not confer additional "luck".

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSawks View Post
    Close but not close enough. Keep the 2HF line. Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack stack with the Dun'Robar rings but both are capped by your Max Dex Bonus. If you are willing to sacrifice DPS for the chance to not be hit then I have to ask "how is your survivability"? Try a Dun'Robar ring with a Mobility crafted item and compair them to the max bonus of your Dex.
    I'd be losing no dps actually, since I'd have the Cormyrian Red Dragonhide armor equipped; this is MBD 15, or dodge cap of 15%. This is 1 less than my dodge potential, which is annoying, but not a huge loss.

  4. #4
    Community Member Alternative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSawks View Post
    Close but not close enough. Keep the 2HF line. Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack stack with the Dun'Robar rings but both are capped by your Max Dex Bonus. If you are willing to sacrifice DPS for the chance to not be hit then I have to ask "how is your survivability"? Try a Dun'Robar ring with a Mobility crafted item and compair them to the max bonus of your Dex.
    quote from wiki "The dodge chance is capped by the Maximum dexterity bonus OF THE ARMOR worn, and cannot exceed 25%"

    But yeah, rather bad idea to give up dps feats for a few points of dodge. Take dodge alone if you have a spare feat, but losing whole thf line is imo a bad deal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alternative View Post
    quote from wiki "The dodge chance is capped by the Maximum dexterity bonus OF THE ARMOR worn, and cannot exceed 25%"

    But yeah, rather bad idea to give up dps feats for a few points of dodge. Take dodge alone if you have a spare feat, but losing whole thf line is imo a bad deal
    Yes but if I'm not auto attacking, am I therefore gaining the benefits of the THFing line at all? Wouldn't I be better off with a bunch of dodge chance?

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    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    You have to weigh the % miss chance keeping in mind that all of the bonuses don't stack in a straight additive way.

    If you get to 15% dodge then 85 of 100 hits still hit you. If you get to 10% incorporeal bonus then 77 out of those 85 attacks still hit you. If you get to 10% concealment then 69 of those 77 attacks still hit you.

    The net impact of 15%/10%/10% is that 31% of attacks that should hit now miss.

    Now you have to look at what damage you give up if glancing blows don't proc because you aren't using the THF feat line. Even if you're twitching you will be giving up some amount of glancing blows. The problem here is that this is really hard to estimate accurately -- mostly because if you're twitching then your attack sequencing and timing will affect the actual numbers.

    If you have the free LR and maybe a LR heartwood lying around it would be worth experimenting with. You might even try establishing some benchmarks by going to a specific quest and encounter where the mobs last long enough. You can then check the combat log and do some timing tests to see if there is a noticeable difference.

    Otherwise, I think it is just going to be people's opinions about how it will actually turn out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    You have to weigh the % miss chance keeping in mind that all of the bonuses don't stack in a straight additive way.

    If you get to 15% dodge then 85 of 100 hits still hit you. If you get to 10% incorporeal bonus then 77 out of those 85 attacks still hit you. If you get to 10% concealment then 69 of those 77 attacks still hit you.

    The net impact of 15%/10%/10% is that 31% of attacks that should hit now miss.

    Now you have to look at what damage you give up if glancing blows don't proc because you aren't using the THF feat line. Even if you're twitching you will be giving up some amount of glancing blows. The problem here is that this is really hard to estimate accurately -- mostly because if you're twitching then your attack sequencing and timing will affect the actual numbers.

    If you have the free LR and maybe a LR heartwood lying around it would be worth experimenting with. You might even try establishing some benchmarks by going to a specific quest and encounter where the mobs last long enough. You can then check the combat log and do some timing tests to see if there is a noticeable difference.

    Otherwise, I think it is just going to be people's opinions about how it will actually turn out.
    31% chance to not be hit, combined with the abysmal AC of a barbarian, and his equally abysmal PRR, CC, Stuns, Trips, and a healer at my back all sound pretty darn worth it. I'll probably try the LR trick, since I'm about to be dropping some serious TP anyways. Thanks for saying it straight doc.

  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    last i heard, *all* cleave-type attacks get glancing blows. the less auto-attacking you do, the more valuable your glancing blow damage gets.

    edit: for clarity, by *all* i mean "all including while you're moving around or otherwise not qualified for glancing blows on regular attacks". with the exception of quarterstaffs, that is... for some reason, there is no glancing blows for quarterstaffs on cleave at any time, even if you're standing still.

  9. #9
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varashad View Post
    Yes but if I'm not auto attacking, am I therefore gaining the benefits of the THFing line at all?
    Glancing blows have a 100% chance of occurring on all Cleaves, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste.
    Wouldn't I be better off with a bunch of dodge chance?
    It is good to have Dodge chance, but the increase in damage mitigation due to the Dodge chance you gain is much smaller than the increase in damage output due to the THF line.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Glancing blows have a 100% chance of occurring on all Cleaves, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste.It is good to have Dodge chance, but the increase in damage mitigation due to the Dodge chance you gain is much smaller than the increase in damage output due to the THF line.
    What are the timers for these feats like? Is it possible to just constantly spam them one after another in a sequence so that at least one is always off timer and available?

    If that happens and glancing blows proc 100% of the time as a result then what extra are you getting from the THF feat line? Is it the % chance for weapon effect to also proc off the glancing blow?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    What are the timers for these feats like? Is it possible to just constantly spam them one after another in a sequence so that at least one is always off timer and available?

    If that happens and glancing blows proc 100% of the time as a result then what extra are you getting from the THF feat line? Is it the % chance for weapon effect to also proc off the glancing blow?
    Two handed fighting line increases the damage of your glancing blows.

  12. #12
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    What are the timers for these feats like? Is it possible to just constantly spam them one after another in a sequence so that at least one is always off timer and available?
    This is a bit of an aside, but with just Cleave and Great Cleave, I found that 52.9% of my attacks were feats. Presumably with the addition of Supreme Cleave this number would go up. It's difficult to calculate analytically because Lay Waste has a chance of being reset by Momentum Swing, MS has a chance of being reset by LW and all Cleaves, there's no information out there about the exact animation time for each maneuver.
    If that happens and glancing blows proc 100% of the time as a result then what extra are you getting from the THF feat line? Is it the % chance for weapon effect to also proc off the glancing blow?
    The damage Varashad mentions is the big one. 20% with none, 50% with GTHF. It also gives you about another 7 glances a minute from your #3 animation in the above-described scheme, not a ton but not nothing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    What are the timers for these feats like? Is it possible to just constantly spam them one after another in a sequence so that at least one is always off timer and available?
    Basically, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If that happens and glancing blows proc 100% of the time as a result then what extra are you getting from the THF feat line? Is it the % chance for weapon effect to also proc off the glancing blow?
    The more mobs you attack simultaneously, the more your damage output goes up due to glancing blows and additional weapon procs. If you are averaging 100 per swing (with cleaves) before weapon procs, then your glancing blows can give you another 50 per additional mob (with GTHF).

    Attack 1 single mob: 100 damage per swing

    Attack 3 mobs: 200 damage per swing (100 to main target, 50 to secondary, 50 to tertiary).

    Attack 6 mobs: 350 damage per swing. (100 to main, 50 to mobs 2-6)

    You can also score a glancing blow against your main target which could up your damage output another 50 per swing.

    GTHF gives a 9% chance of weapon effects procing on a glancing blow. Orcish aptitude III can bump that to 15%. Add those in those and you can do a LOT of damage in a short period of time to a group of mobs.

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