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  1. #1
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    Default Pure Rogue - is it doable?

    Half-Elf Rogue, INT/WIS build, not interested in power-gaming her, just want to play D&D like I did when I was little. Is this viable? Is a Rogue useful to groups/guilds at higher levels? She's lvl 4 now and I've saved most enhancement points. Any ideas, suggestions, howls of derision?

  2. #2
    Community Member Mennion's Avatar
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    Default Si barrone

    I always played a fighter in pen and paper but love playing a rogue in DDO. Taken a long time to learn the tricks of the trade but now at level 19 and looking forward to doing it all again after TR. I play a halfling dex based assassin so I'm not sure about your build but I say go for it.
    "i have of late, though wherefore i know not, lost all my mirth"

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    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    I'd need to know more about the build. Are you going wis for spot and the cleric dilly? If you take insightful reflexes, you will still be able to jump through traps with a low-ish dex. If you have a decent dex, you could take weapon finesse and the two weapon fighting feats and go assassin. Assassins can still trap very well.

    I don't know a whole lot about the mechanic prestige, but that's also a decent option for an int build. I've heard that it'll feel gimp after lvl 14 or so, though.

    My rogue had a 13 starting con, and it's possible to get by with a low con, but you'll spend the rest of that life trying to get your hp up. Improved evasion helps mitigate incoming damage.

    Rogues can really be viably built a number of different ways, so my advise to you would be to check out the prestiges and see what you want to build for.
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    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Int/Wis is rare as spot DCs are generally low enough that your Wis bonus won't matter too much.....23points from skills at levelup and a +15 item and say +4-6 from your stat item plus other Skill boosters (Greater Heroism, Shipbuffs, action boosts) are generally more than enough until you get into Epic Elite content.....

    Thus throwing alot of build points to Wisdom isn't generally required. Those points are better spent on Str/Con/Dex or even Cha for UMD.

    There are alot of ways to build your rogue...I would check the specialist forums and skim some builds to see how people do it then use that knowledge to travel your own path.

    Most important have fun.
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  5. #5
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Wis is rare as spot DCs are generally low enough that your Wis bonus won't matter too much...
    Agreed. Since this is a roleplay character though, just make sure to have a decent STR score for decent to-hit and you should be fine.

    Have fun .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Int/Wis is rare as spot DCs are generally low enough that your Wis bonus won't matter too much.....23points from skills at levelup and a +15 item and say +4-6 from your stat item plus other Skill boosters (Greater Heroism, Shipbuffs, action boosts) are generally more than enough until you get into Epic Elite content.....
    On my current Rogue I was 1 short of the Spot requirement in Elite dungeons when run at level +2 (when we swapped our Int ship altar for a Wis one I was able to Spot them). So the Wis requirement may exist at various levels and depend on gear. I was using a +5 Spot item at level 7, but moved to a +11 item at level 8 - and have had no trouble.

  7. #7
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I do not know how you played when you were playing D&D. I don't know what you did with your build points or how your stats are distributed. As a consequence, I don't know if the build you have is really viable or not -- or if it can be made viable within the context of DDO.

    But, INT/WIS does not have to be bad.

    Let's assume that you start with a 32 point build -- an assumption I am making because you have the half-elf race. You can start with a really bland stat distribution of 14/15/14/14/14/8. You can put your level increases into INT with the intent of following the Assassin PrE.

    The 15 DEX is not quite enough to get you the full TWF line. But, unless you are VIP you're already spending money for Turbine Points. If you are VIP you probably are still spending money on Turbine Points. Or, maybe you have an alt that is high level.

    Any way you slice it, 15 DEX lets you get the full TWF line with a +2 tome. This is almost compulsory (the TWF line) in DDO.

    Starting with 14 INT and putting your stat increases there lets you get to reasonable assassination attempts on ~80% of all content. That lets you sneak around and kill stuff.

    The 14 STR is not great but it is enough when you are sneak attacking to just about guarantee that you will hit on every attack. (Of course, it is a d20 system so 1 will always miss.) Your damage won't be huge from raw STR but with SA dice it will be really good.

    Taking 14 CON leaves you in pretty good shape for hit points. Could be higher, could be lower, but it is alright.

    Going with 14 WIS gives you a leg up in early quests with Spot. A lot of players don't pay attention to Spot. But, if you are playing without a lot of knowledge about trap locations/secret doors/etc. then a high Spot is still a good thing. The other thing it does is it opens up the Cleric dilettante. This gives you immediate access to cure wands. Yes, hirelings are cheaper but they are not always reliable and you are often in full groups.

    Later in life you can talk to the NPC in the marketplace for a free feat respec. Do this when your UMD skill is high enough to reliably use cure wands and heal scrolls. At that time switch to the Artificer dilettante for a useful INT enhancement and a bonus to UMD.

    Is it a cookie cutter character? No. Is it a super powerful character? No. Is it viable? Absolutely.

    And, played in groups it will do fine.

    Where you might run into challenges is if you solo everything. But, this is always a bit of a challenge for a rogue. Part of the fun is figuring out how to use skills like bluff or how to use line-of-sight/noise/etc. to pull mobs in small numbers. So, it can be done. It just takes a lot more patience and skills.

  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    On my current Rogue I was 1 short of the Spot requirement in Elite dungeons when run at level +2 (when we swapped our Int ship altar for a Wis one I was able to Spot them). So the Wis requirement may exist at various levels and depend on gear. I was using a +5 Spot item at level 7, but moved to a +11 item at level 8 - and have had no trouble.
    low levels are a bit harder on a rogue. you generally have to have awesome gear, or be a mechanic, to handle elite low level stuff. oddly enough, it gets easier as you gain levels.

    that said, you don't actually need spot at all. spot is useful for knowing where the traps and trap boxes are, but if you already know those things, you can skip it entirely...

    but, if you're just starting out in DDO, you probably don't have the knowledge to ignore spot, so yeah... investing in it is probably a good idea ^^

  9. #9
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Very doable. Some ignorant people don't take rogues into their parties at higher levels, unless there are traps. They don't realise that between sneak attack damage and assassinate rogues are very competitive in melee. Just be sure not to get aggro. Let others go in the room first and get the monsters' attention before you go and butcher them (the monsters ).

    Don't save enhancement points. They can be reset easily and cheaply.
    Last edited by stoerm; 01-22-2013 at 06:42 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member bonscott87's Avatar
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    The character I had the most fun with was a flavor build that turned into a great toon that did a *ton* of damage even at level 20. I had many comments about how much damage I could do. I used the "Big F--- Stick" build as a template.

    It was a Half-Orc Rogue/Fighter with a 13/7 split. Quarterstaff was my main weapon.
    Being a two-handed weapon the many Half-Orc two-hander enhancements apply.
    Take the Thief-acrobat line, both levels. And for the fighter you can take Kensei I.
    Also maxed out the bluff skill.
    I'm pretty sure I did near max strength and all level ups into strength. Also INT of 12 (14 with tome), CON of 16, some into CHA to remove the penalties. WIS dump, rest into Dex.

    Wow, using bluff to start a fight and then again whenever possible guaranteed lots of sneak attacks and tons of damage. With just a stick in hand I'd easily do 100+ damage per hit without sneak attack. The tempest/kensai in the guild was the only toon that could reach me in DPS.

    Can deal with all traps in the game, had high UMD to self heal. The only downside was not much AC to speak of so you gotta pay attention to your HP bar and hit showtime and get out of there to heal up if needed. Heck, I wore robes level 8 and up for the most part. LOL. I haven't played the toon since the AC changes went into effect so I think light armor would be much more viable now.

    Anyway, just a post to say there are tons of "weird" flavor builds that can be not only fun to play but can be effective as well.
    Last edited by bonscott87; 01-22-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  11. #11
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    Yes, DDO is easy.

    Take the precision feat early, the DDO version is a lot better than the pen and paper one.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Your rogue will be significantly stronger with at least some Dex. TWF lets you apply your enormous sneak attack damage almost twice per attack. THF and ranged are well behind in this regard.

    Your rogue will also benefit from at least some Str: raw damage, carrying capacity.

    It is probably doable to make a rogue with neither, but I don't think it would be very fun.

    .

    DDO is not a game where traps are a major factor. A significant number of quests have none. I can't think of a quest offhand that features traps that must be disabled for successful completion. Consequently, if you play your rogue as a pure trapper, you will find yourself contributing very little. As a rogue you have enormous DPS potential, but you still have to devote at least some build resources to it.

  13. #13
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Your rogue will be significantly stronger with at least some Dex. TWF lets you apply your enormous sneak attack damage almost twice per attack. THF and ranged are well behind in this regard.

    Your rogue will also benefit from at least some Str: raw damage, carrying capacity.

    It is probably doable to make a rogue with neither, but I don't think it would be very fun.

    .

    DDO is not a game where traps are a major factor. A significant number of quests have none. I can't think of a quest offhand that features traps that must be disabled for successful completion. Consequently, if you play your rogue as a pure trapper, you will find yourself contributing very little. As a rogue you have enormous DPS potential, but you still have to devote at least some build resources to it.
    Traps on elite can make some quests nigh unfinishable for a party - a rogue or other evasion character may be able to ignore them but in many parties (partly due to scaling) the traps do make a huge difference. Yeah in some instances you can just die in the trap and get rezzed on the other side but I don't consider that a proper 'solution' to traps:

    Monastery - for that non-jumpy cleric in the party
    Foundation of Discord (due to randomness and the traps do hit hard
    Chains of Flame (some elite fire and blade traps can wipe you fast)
    VoN3,4 & 5 - (4 mostly just if you are bad at timing things)
    Shadow Knight (on elite you will probably die if you don't have a trapper and the XP is nice too).
    Repossession (Sharn quest - even 30pt resist, decent saves and 120pt Prot isn't enough to survive with a 150hp character at L6)
    Shan-to-kor last quest - can be done without trapper but requires evasion or luck and good saves.

    That said I agree - take care of your DPS sources as well as your trapping. If I have a choice between a rogue/arti in my party or another 'dps' slot I will take the trapper each time. If played properly they DPS slot will only fill a DPS role while a rogue/arti will still provide plenty of DPS and take out traps. If both played poorly then I can at least hope the rogue will get the traps.
    Last edited by Spoonwelder; 01-24-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Traps on elite can make some quests nigh unfinishable for a party - a rogue or other evasion character may be able to ignore them but in many parties (partly due to scaling) the traps do make a huge difference. Yeah in some instances you can just die in the trap and get rezzed on the other side but I don't consider that a proper 'solution' to traps:
    It's not glamorous, but it gets the job done.
    Monastery - for that non-jumpy cleric in the party
    Foundation of Discord (due to randomness and the traps do hit hard
    Chains of Flame (some elite fire and blade traps can wipe you fast)
    VoN3,4 & 5 - (4 mostly just if you are bad at timing things)
    Shadow Knight (on elite you will probably die if you don't have a trapper and the XP is nice too).
    Repossession (Sharn quest - even 30pt resist, decent saves and 120pt Prot isn't enough to survive with a 150hp character at L6)
    Shan-to-kor last quest - can be done without trapper but requires evasion or luck and good saves.
    If I may respond in order:
    1. Solution: don't go to the first shrine. The traps we're talking about are avoidable in the rest of the quest.
    2. Foundation of Discord is a good point. That's one quest.
    3. Solution: don't run Chains of Flame. If you really must flag for DQ, run it post-bravery on casual.
    4a. The first trap you can just run past, the second trap only hits one person.
    4b. Same solution as Chains of Flame.
    4c. That's another good one (at level anyways), so two quests.
    5. Yuck, Necro 2 flaggers.
    6. There are soooo many quests in the 4-6 range that missing two (this and the chain cap) doesn't matter: you're going to level past some quests in that range anyway.
    7. There is a res shrine immediately after, and it's pretty easy to avoid a sissy minotaur.

    Even if we agreed on those 9 quests, that's 9 out of however many in the entire game, so I stand by traps not being a major factor.

  15. #15
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Sorry - not disagreeing that overall traps aren't a _major_ factor but I did want to point out that being good at traps isn't something to ****oo for a newer player looking for advice for their rogue.


    That said - In monastery - I am talking about the traps through the rest of the quest - bad jump/timing and you are going to get nailed. I was last night - Sorc with FF/Stride30%/Jump40+, knew where the trap was and still got nailed by it. Due to server/client differences - I also stood in ran right over trap while it went off(forgot it was there while running around) on my screen but didn't even have to make a save due to those same server/client variances. Yes you should be able to avoid them but that relies upon alot of stars lining up nicely for you.

    For your other 'solutions' ....not running something much like 'rezzing' on the other side isn't a solution per se unless you don't have a rogue in your party - the OP is a rogue looking for advice. If you have to rez on the other side or skip quests since your rogue isn't good enough....said rogue is going to get dropped from groups very quickly.

    RE- Sharn - as the OP is a new player they will likely want to (I would say should) take in most of the quests as they level just to get a feel for the game. So discounting low level quests due to other options for questing available isn't a viable argument (IMO).

    Shan-to kor - if you die in the traps you can't get to the sissy minotaur - nor can you get to the rez shrine since the door isn't open. If one person makes it through yay - you are golden (just hit the valve and the fire traps stop) then everyone makes it through. But one person has to make it through a room full of elite fire traps - the minotaur is non-issue.
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    One thing that is often overlooked - Rogues are excellent healers in specific situations.

    Now, I haven't played in over a year so maybe I'm out of touch, but if you keep your umd up high you can scroll heal people in situations where either:

    a) the cleric is dead
    b) the cleric says "no way, i'm not going to kite that demon down there while trying to keep 3 of you alive"
    c) everybody else is dead in elite shav and your 90 ac is letting you beat everything up until you can scroll rez someone with your awesome umd.

    Traps are important but often get covered by someone with 1 or 2 rogue levels... it's the survivability of high ac coupled with awesome umd that gets you invited places.

  17. #17
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Let me just say that while people like having a trapper in certain quests, traps are a very small percentage of DDO questing.

    Killing monsters is what you need to be able to do 90+% of the time.

    Wisdom adds to Spot (which is important but there are ways to beef it up) and to Wil saves. (also important but... )

    I have been perfectly happy with my Drow Rogue who started with an 8 Wisdom.
    Yes... sometimes my Spot isn't up to the quest... but that is rare.

    Also most traps are in static or semi-static locations in DDO, so with experience, you know where they are and do not need Spot as much.

    The Wil save hurts me some. But in my case I play a Drow and the Spell Resistance helps... plus I sneak around alot and usually can avoid being the intended target of many spells....
    (also being held or commanded does not break stealth so I can usually survive even if I fail the Wil save.)





    Ok.. with that in mind, Int is nice for a DDO Rogue.
    But my personal preference is 6 build points in Int and no level up points in it.
    For your Half Elf that would be a 14 Int, plus eventually Tomes (+2 Tome is easy enough to get eventually... or buy...) plus items. (you wil easily get a +6 Int item eventually as well)

    For my Drow it was a base 16 Int and I really enjoy that.

    But... Int "is" very nice for a Rogue.

    But so is Dex.

    and Con.

    and Str.

    and Cha

    and.... Wis.

    /sigh... if only you could have it all.....lol




    Oh.. but let me just restate.... in DDO... killing monsters! Should be your number one goal.

    My Rogue is an Assassin. She is a killer.
    Traps are just something I grudgingly do on the side... to help the rest of the party.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 03-13-2013 at 01:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #18

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    A mechanic rogue is also really good at killing and traps. my build is a bit different since I was a total noob when I made it

    http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/mandyb/

    you can check it out there

    im generally pretty high in kill count and never fail a trap

  19. #19
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vintariq View Post
    Half-Elf Rogue, INT/WIS build, not interested in power-gaming her, just want to play D&D like I did when I was little. Is this viable? Is a Rogue useful to groups/guilds at higher levels? She's lvl 4 now and I've saved most enhancement points. Any ideas, suggestions, howls of derision?
    Not sure about INT / WIS. INT / DEX yes. INT / STR probably. If you do INT anything, you should probably go Assassin.

    And yes, with the right gear, a rogue can do wonders in a group at higher levels. Pure rogue with capstone gets killer SA damage. Assassin gets vorpal strikes as part of melee (IIRC). Very nice DPS, and very versitile.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

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    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Chains of Flame (some elite fire and blade traps can wipe you fast)
    I love the traps in that quest. In any given PUG, SOMEONE forgets that one blade trap, no matter how many times they've run the quest, and is turned into a soulstone.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

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