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  1. #1
    Community Member zichant's Avatar
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    Default TOD Shadow questions..

    I've just started running TOD on my PM and have been asked a couple of times to kite the shadows. I told one party leader that I was uncomfortable with it, as I am still learning and would hate to cause a party wipe, and he asked me to drop group.
    Since then I've been getting myself prepared as much as possible to tank the shadows instead of kite.

    I'm in the process of making a GS cold absorption item (have 10 shards of supreme but no shard of power so I am delayed until next shroud run at least).
    I'm very nervous to tank my first time, and will likely do so in a guild run only on normal/hard.

    Unyielding Sentinel ED will put me up to roughly 975HP but will drop my INT down to 50 with ship buffs and lich. As a result, my reflex saves drop from 49 to roughly 37/38.

    Is there any benefit to having the higher reflex saves against the shadows while I am tanking? I realize that their auras do cold damage but I have no idea if a strong reflex save will reduce any of the damage.
    Also, do the shadows spawn soon after the boss comes out or do they respawn continuously until the boss is dead?

    I plan to go in with 20/15/10% cold absorption, extended fire shield, and will probably use incendiary clouds and firewall to take shadow aggro. I plan to tank slightly away from the stairs, and keep firewall OR sleet storm going on the shadows. I heard that death aura is enough to keep aggro, but I want something else there just in case.

    I read in another thread that I will take about 40 damage per tick with cold absorb, fire shield and cold protection on hard difficulty. How often roughly is a tick and to your knowledge, is this information accurate?

    I'm probably over-thinking it but I just want to make sure I am prepared as much as possible. I appreciate any advice you can give and am open to any suggestions.
    Thanks!
    Last edited by zichant; 02-03-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by zichant View Post
    I plan to go in with 20/15/10% cold absorption, extended fire shield, and will probably use incendiary clouds and firewall to take shadow aggro.
    Overkill on N/H, and more than enough for E. A 10% item off AH and the 15% from shiradi + fire shield are plenty. Oh, and a 30 or 40 cold resist of course.
    Last edited by oweieie; 01-31-2013 at 08:57 PM.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by zichant View Post
    I'm in the process of making a GS cold absorption item (have 10 shards of supreme but no shard of power so I am delayed until next shroud run at least).
    Nice item to have.

    Unyielding Sentinel ED will put me up to roughly 975HP but will drop my INT down to 50 with ship buffs and lich. As a result, my reflex saves drop from 49 to roughly 37/38.
    Any possiblity of twising in the first tier of Draconic energy absorbtion in the form that reduces cold damage? As far as hit points, players have been ok with half as many hit points.
    Is there any benefit to having the higher reflex saves against the shadows while I am tanking? I realize that their auras do cold damage but I have no idea if a strong reflex save will reduce any of the damage.
    I have never heard of ref being an issue, but I could be wrong.
    Also, do the shadows spawn soon after the boss comes out or do they respawn continuously until the boss is dead?
    They come in waves.
    I plan to go in with 20/15/10% cold absorption, extended fire shield, and will probably use incendiary clouds
    This is all you need right there.
    and firewall to take shadow aggro. I plan to tank slightly away from the stairs,
    Bad move, park yourself right beside the middle bottom of the stairs. Put up your incendiary cloud and extended fireshield, quicken your reconstruct; and DON"T move any at all. Position yourself looking straight down and close in using mouselock so nothing messes up your targeting.
    and keep firewall OR sleet storm going on the shadows. I heard that death aura is enough to keep aggro, but I want something else there just in case.
    Again, messing with targeting the stairs from afar will get you in trouble, you will have huge dark shadows all over you messing with your targeting. Get where you belong, target yourself, put up your big long lasting AOE and keep yourself reconstructed/death bursted.

    I read in another thread that I will take about 40 damage per tick with cold absorb, fire shield and cold protection on hard difficulty. How often roughly is a tick and to your knowledge, is this information accurate?
    No ticks at all, its an aura that hits you at a certain range once and once only. That is why you stay still and don't move because that will activate another hit time half dozen or more shadown all atop you.
    I'm probably over-thinking it but I just want to make sure I am prepared as much as possible. I appreciate any advice you can give and am open to any suggestions.
    Thanks!


    Obscuring Mist is a nice backup spell to have running in case your other cloud goes down.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 01-31-2013 at 09:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Cauthey's Avatar
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    Don't forget the Icy Frostbite potions from the recent Risia event. I believe that the benefit provided by those potions stack with everything else.

    But really, tanking is not all that hard. The hardest part about it is the confidence, really. It sounds as though you are more than well prepared. Just put out your AoE covering the bottom of the stairs, and keep your shield and heals going, and you'll be just fine.
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  5. #5
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey View Post
    Just put out your AoE covering the bottom of the stairs, and keep your shield and heals going, and you'll be just fine.
    Nowadays, if there's more than one healer-type in the group, one of them should at least be keeping an eye on your health as well. I usually take that responsibility on my Clerics - whether the Shadow Tank is PM/WF/whatever. As long as the Shadows don't climb up the stairs, your group should be good (and heck, the last run I did on Hard somebody managed to aggro the shadows, and me and the other healer were able to simply chain-mass-heal the group through until the Shadow Tank got them back under control. EDs are nice )
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  6. #6
    Community Member Derailment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    No ticks at all, its an aura that hits you at a certain range once and once only. That is why you stay still and don't move because that will activate another hit time half dozen or more shadown all atop you.
    Hmm I'm sure they hit periodically, at least I was while standing still between two immobile shadows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey View Post
    Don't forget the Icy Frostbite potions from the recent Risia event. I believe that the benefit provided by those potions stack with everything else.
    Probably, probably not, they're claimed to be 20% absorption. I don't like them because you became susceptible to fire damage for 1 hour, and I was almost shot by Suulomades' Fireball once.


    To the OP, once your gearing is complete, only thing you need is learn to target.
    Once you'll get comfortable with this, you will be able to DoT Shadowkeeper as well.
    Join normal/hard TOD, ask leader to get another shadow tank for backup.

    Some other tips:
    There are Superior Cold Resistance items (40) and Inherent 10 shields. This bring you to 50 resistance death-proof.
    Magister ED Sigil which grants stacking 20/40/60 resist for a minute.
    Draconic Incarnation ED energy sheath - 2/4/6 minutes of 50% reduction (useful on sorcerer without Extend)
    Setup special hotbar panel for tanking. Things including gear setup, repairing/negative healing, protection from elements, clouds/AOE.
    Take you time after first wave disappeared to refresh your buffs/AOE/clouds, as well as haste/rage on party.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zichant View Post
    OR sleet storm going on the shadows.
    Well, if you wanna sleet storm, might as well grease the stairs too, for good measure !

    Seriously, unmetaed cloudkill or incend cloud. And you better be in other destiny than sentinel, in bad dps group more hp won't save you from potting, more sp does. Arcane destiny also makes handling the orthons easier if you do elite and aren't that geared yet. Don't move, zoom out the camera.
    And red fire shield, not the cold one !
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  8. #8
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    You probably want to avoid using firewall. It's too easy for the shadows to make a reflex save on that first tick and head up the stairs. Between waves it's a good idea to refresh protection from elements. Also, casting a persistent aoe on Nytherios between waves can help re-establish aggro in the event that somebody mistakenly tags one of the shadows.



  9. #9
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    Short on time so I only skimmed the posts so far. Seems to be a lot of good advice here, but one thing stuck out at me as missing (or I simply missed it in reading hastily): shadow tanking was done pre epic destinies. All that's really needed are the following (in no particular order):

    1) A means to get agro. Several spells mentioned above to do the job.
    2) A means to survive the agro. Pre destinies this consisted of GS cold absorption, prot vs. elements, fire shield (hot) and ideally self-healing. Now the options are even broader.

    ToD p2 (shadow tanking) currently only lasts ~5 minutes pending group. Had some low dps groups take slightly longer, had some go so fast that I was still displaced while looting the chest. Don't worry too much over it. Even elite, it's a Heroic lvl 22 quest. Like so much else, epic destinies can easily make you op for the challenge it presents.
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  10. #10
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    As a PM that tanks Elite TOD's i will add my input.

    GS (weap) cold asorb Item = 45% cold asorb.
    GS (item) cold resist item = 45% cold resist
    add to that fire shield
    Ship buffs
    Mass Protect.
    ^^^^ = sitting pretty..

    Also tactics wise Tanking is much better then kitting. Their aura's act the same way FW dose, so if you are going in and out of their aura's (kiting) you will get more DMG. However if you tank! their Aura's (act the same as firewall) Do not stack. so you can have 50 shadows on you, you will only still take damage per tic from 1 shadow (untill another joins the pile, then you take the 1 tic from the new shadow + 1 tic from previous shadow, then back to 1 tic from the group of shadows). As for what to use for agro. i use Cloudkill, Firewall, and inceration cloud. Reason being, even if you have BAD DC's each of those spells have diffent saves, so they have to save on fort, reflex, etc.. to make it past them to get to the group. So all you have to do is sit in your aura and relax.

    With full tanking gear you will litterialy take 10pnts of dmg per shadow tic on elite.

  11. #11
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    Don't overcomplicate things. Tanking shadows is easy. While it's nice to have a second arcane for back-up the first time you do it (and any reasonable party-leader will accept that without comment) the risk of failure if you pay attention is small. The most common mistakes can be put down to:

    1. Not getting aggro of the shadows. A spell with AoE should be put at the base or middle of the stairs, and since the shadows have evasion it's best if it's one without a refelx-save. I use Solid Fog + Ice Storm and that hasnt failed me so far.
    2. Forgetting to switch to undead form. This will usuallly result in your death as you dont realise why you arent getting healed. If you keep Fire-shield (red) and Death Aura up and cycle Negativ energy burst, Protection from elements and Mass protection from elements there is no other reason why you should die. Elemental absorption is gravy, but not necessary (at least not on normal or hard).

    Good luck, and probably not a bad thing to miss the "fun" of running the quest with a leader like that.

  12. #12
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilI View Post
    Don't overcomplicate things. Tanking shadows is easy.
    This is the truth. It's so easy a Healer can do it!

    Get your aborbs, stay in your primary ED and look like a pro.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  13. #13
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    I think the most useful information is knowing how the shadow's auras work. They are just like any area effect spell in DDO: you take damage once you cross the aura borders, then again on every 2 seconds or so. Also, two auras don't add, but instead overlap, which means running around will assure you to take much more damage in those 2 seconds as you will enter and leave multiple auras.
    Also, if you are a PM and already have the GS cold absorption item, just cast your fire shield, cold resistance and your death aura and you are good to go. If you are trying hard/elite, you could use the help of the lesser death aura as well (it stacks with the other one) and negative energy burst for emergencies (quicken is not a must if you can time it to be cast right after you take the damage). If you still don't feel confident, keep some inflict serious wounds potions (get them from trading with Dannato) to use. With some experience, you can even cast DoTS on the boss while tanking.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Nospheratus's Avatar
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    Apart from all the information others posted, I just to give you an example of how easy it is on N/H.

    Before MotU I tanked the shadows on my Wizard (AM, not PM), IIRC on hard difficulty...
    One of the healers taking care of my hps, of course. I had fire shield, was spamming protection from elements - didn't prep the single target protection - and chugging CSW pots. Also did not have a cold absorb item and had a bit over 500 hps IIRC...
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  15. #15
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    I use a tier 2 shroud cold absorb item, fire shield, recon/aura(whatever you have)i also use protect from elements you can spam this. I use Ice storm(bludgeon no save) and cloudkill(no save really) for the bottom of the stairs.

  16. #16
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    This is the truth. It's so easy a Healer can do it!

    Get your aborbs, stay in your primary ED and look like a pro.
    I miss those ToDs
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    It's so easy a Healer can do it!
    Anybody with a way to grab aggro (Solid Fog clicky works), some Cold Absorb (UMD a Fire Shield scroll), moderate hit points (wouldn't want to be too far below, say, 400), and some self-healing can do it.

    More Cold Absorb (GS item), more HP, etc., just makes it even easier.

    Did it as a divine quite often before before EDs existed. Would have happily done it on my Ranger life if I hadn't TRed right away.

  18. #18
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    I want to try it with scrolls of glitterdust on a melee type one day. I just have to start running ToD again
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  19. #19
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    Default TOD Shadow guide

    OP, I feel your anxiety. The shadow wrangler's role is so important, and if you fail, most likely the party wipes, and nobody wants to be that guy. How are you supposed to learn though? Back when TOD was the only endgame around, I was declined many times because I didn't know how to handle the shadows, and people didn't want to put their lives in the hands of an inexperienced fleshy sorc. And who could blame them? So I did what you are doing, and set out to learn everything there was to know about handling the shadows. I asked every vet I saw to show me their method. Kiting the shadows on elite was by far one of my most memorable achievements when I started playing. I'm going to repeat a few things that have been said already, but I would like to be as thorough as possible...

    1) Know the battlefield and progression of events.
    The first two shadows will always spawn on either side of the platform, and there will always be two at this point. Listen for the DM text "your hope strikes hard as Nytherios loses focus.." When this text pops up, those first two shadows will disappear. This is a glorious break in the action for you, allowing you time to refresh fire shield hot as well as your aggro-getting aoe spell on the base of the stairs. From here the shadow spawns are more random. You know that spot everyone stops at in the start? Take a moment to spin around in place- you will see hallways that feed into the main room. These are where the next set of shadows will come from. I've seen anywhere from 1-4 shadows spawn at once from these hallways. The number and which hallway is totally random. From here, those shadows will hang around until the end of the battle, and more may spawn. Your success will also depend on how fast your party can take down the boss, since the longer it takes, the more shadows you have to deal with.

    2) Getting their aggro.
    The shadows have evasion, which is why people are cautioning you against firewall, the shadows can make a reflex save and just waltz right up those stairs. I like to use a quickened cloudkill since it stays up a good long while and they almost never save (quickened because it takes too long to cast otherwise, especially if kiting). There's nothing wrong with targeting the shadows singly as well if you see they saved, or want to grab them right away instead of waiting for them to hit your aoe. I usually throw a magic missle at them for this purpose. The above poster is correct, put your aoe at the base of the stairs. This is a natural bottleneck. The shadows can kind of sneak up the edges of the stairs, so make sure your spell covers the width of the stairs and cast it twice to cover more area if it doesn't. Almost any spell will work. I've kited the shadows on my bard using glitterdust on the stairs, and tanked on my favored soul using blade barrier. So use whatever you have, as long as it's not ice. You're not trying to kill them, just get their attention.

    3) Protect yourself.
    Sounds like you're already aware of the buffs you need, and other people have listed the right things. Fireshield hot, protection from elements, resist. Haste, jump and so on if you are kiting. Cold absorp is icing. I've never gotten around to making a cold absorption item on any of my toons and have tanked and kited on most of them. It does give you an extra layer of security though, so I'm not saying you shouldn't make one, just that you don't absolutely *need* one.

    4) To kite or to tank?
    Personal preference really. Pick one and don't change tactics mid-battle.
    Tanking:
    Keep aoe up at the base of the stairs. Bottle neck that spot so they can't get past you, hit them with single target stuff to be certain. DO NOT MOVE. The shadows have a cold aura that does massive damage when you enter it (which you know already) as well as when you *exit* it (which you may not have known), and that counts for each aura. As casters, our instinct is to move away when we are taking damage, but in this case that will only cause more damage! When I am tanking, I alternate protection from elements with self heals for extra cold damage mitigation.

    Pros: You don't have to move, you are close to healers if you need an extra boost.
    Cons: If you die, *all* the shadows are already right by the party, and there is no time for someone else to take their aggro.

    Kiting:
    Place your aoe at the base of the stairs, and pull back a little. Watch to make sure the first two shadows turn to chase you, and hit them with a single target spell if they don't. Then turn around and run! I run counter clockwise along the outside edges of the room, keeping those pillars you see to my left shoulder. The pillars act as obstacles for the shadows to move around. Listen for the DM text, which signals the disappearance of the first two shadows and the start of the second wave of shadow spawns. As soon as you hear that text, get up front, refresh your aoe and buffs. Then return to the middle of the room. Turn in a circle in place so you can see which hallways the new shadows are coming from. Sometimes they'll see you and come right at you, sometimes they'll head toward the party first. Again, you can choose to either wait for them to hit your stair aoe, or you can get their attention right away. Then RUN again! Same pattern. Be sure to jump-cast-refresh that aoe spell at the base of the stairs as you run past. That is the only time you should jump, by the way. Otherwise it will slow you down too much and the shadows will catch you.

    Pros: When done correctly, you won't even get touched by the shadows. You keep the shadows away from the group, making it much easier to make sure none of them attack the group.
    Cons: A bit more tricky in terms of movement. You are far away most of the time. If you need help healing, you may be out of luck.

    Hope that gives you a clearer picture of what happens during that section. Remind your party to turn off precise shot, and to not use aoe effects *at all* (tier 3 alchemicals weapons, etc.). While your role here is super important, members of the party can certainly throw a wrench in things if they aren't careful or take too long to kill the boss.

    Good luck!

    Edit: forgot you asked about your reflex save. It is useless to you for this part, so don't sweat it.
    Last edited by Ayyelos; 02-01-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  20. #20

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    I went crazy prepping my PM for shadow tanking:

    Tier 3 GS cold absorption
    Buckler of festival cold resist
    Cloak of superior cold resistance
    Magister sigil of energy resistance 2/3 (stacking 40)

    As an added plus, apparently the epic elemental essence ring cold resist stacks with the festival cold resist, giving me a static 55 resistance to cold not counting the 40 from magister. The GS item combined with fireshield ends up with 69.4% absorption after the 95 resistance...yeah okay this is overkill. But I'm excited; hopefully tonight I can try it all out.

    On my "TOD checklist" I also have the note to slot in flesh to stone for the orthons in the end fight.

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