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  1. #61
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Full_Bleed View Post
    At this point, I really do think that people are choosing to be confused. Chai actually goes out of his way to explain the pitfalls of the growing P2W system and as I look around I see gaggles of ostriches with their heads in the sand.

    It's one thing to disagree with his position because you truly believe that nothing anyone else does in the game affects how *you* play the game (and it might not in many cases), and quite another to feign like what he's saying is just the confused rambling of a detached and unreasonable person.

    IMO, there is far too much of the latter lately. And yet, Chai still continues to fight the fight.

    News flash: Nothing in his posts point to him doing it to tear the game down. He does it to try and build the game up. There are canaries in the mine dying and just because some don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.


    For starters, there was a time when motes, which can be sold in the open market of the game, had a currency and trade value with a direct correlation to actually *playing* the game to amass that particular currency. For some, that means that time and skill in that event equated an in-game reward.

    Now that you can (and, in fact, *have* to) buy the Midwinter tokens that basically give even the most inept skater 100 to 200 motes every 3 minutes the pendulum swings from motes being an in-game currency you "played" for to a currency you can simply "pay" for.

    For *some*, it will diminish that, once-earned reward.

    For this to be true, it doesn't have to affect *you.* You simply may not care because you may not (or do not) play that part of the game, but rest assured, jumping for motes/recipes and then trading the fruits of that labor was a part of the game. It's still there, but it has been diminished. (If it wasn't for the 10k bear pet this would have a much more serious impact.)

    Further, the monetization of the mini-game is a significant departure from its sister Risia festival and is more akin to one of DDO's least popular events (The Festival of the Traveler.) Adopting more monetization and P2W elements in the event bodes ill for future events.

    It's worth considering whether or not we want future events to be more like Cove, Risia, and Mabar or more like Traveler and Midwinter.
    Thank you for explaining in full what I basically only touched on in a few sentences about the new event.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #62
    Community Member Full_Bleed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So P2W from now on means PLAY 2 WIN
    You made some good points, but failed to see how the two definitions of the term can (and do) co-exist.

    Turbine is to be commended for many of the "Play 2 Win" elements that you mentioned. But given that games like this, by their nature, *should* be primarily Play-2-Win, I'll hold exuberant applause and reward them by continuing to play the game and spending money on new content they produce for the game.

    The "Pay-2-Win" elements and their impact on the game, on the other hand, aren't going to go away by simply trying to redefine the acronym.

  3. #63
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Yeah, the game is getting a little stale, but the forums are always entertaining.



    Really Chai, words still have meaning, and people tend to like it that way.

    You just dig yourself a hole when you refer to something as P2W, and then admit that actual winning is not a requirement.

    I'd characterize the game more as "pay to feel good about yourself". Most of your actual concerns could be covered under this term, and it would bypass a lot of the counter arguments that you receive. So, unless you are really that hung up on P2W as a term, or simply enjoy the argument, you might want to consider using it.

    Of course, referring to the game as "pay to feel good about yourself" really tends to make some Turbine employees cranky, so I suspect it hits a lot closer to home than they would prefer to see discussed on these forums.
    It hits alot closer to home because I am correct on the issue. Theres the same 5 people who always disagree with me who will do so regardless of what the topic is, and then theres everyone else, who understands my position regardless if they agree or disagree with it. English slang does not mean the sum of the words in the term. So I am digging no hole for myself whatsoever by calling it p2w and then understanding that the widely accepted definition of the term p2w doesnt require winning, as the absolutists would have you believe.

    So the next time youre talking about someone having a chip on their shoulder, or a bone to pick, do they REALLY have a chip on their shoulder while picking a bone? No validation is required from anyone who tries to imply that definitions must mean the sum of all their words (which is an absurd claim when considering how the English language works) for me or anyone else for that matter to use the term. Furthermore, I am convinced that people clearly understand what it means and are replying with wanting to discuss semantics of the definition rather than the actual topic, because they also understand that what I am saying is true here. p2w does have an increasingly negative impact on the game, in matter of degree.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #64
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So the next time youre talking about someone having a chip on their shoulder, or a bone to pick, do they REALLY have a chip on their shoulder while picking a bone? No validation is required from anyone who tries to imply that definitions must mean the sum of all their words (which is an absurd claim when considering how the English language works) for me or anyone else for that matter to use the term. Furthermore, I am convinced that people clearly understand what it means and are replying with wanting to discuss semantics of the definition rather than the actual topic, because they also understand that what I am saying is true here. p2w does have an increasingly negative impact on the game, in matter of degree.
    You have defined what you mean by p2w many times, but they will still see it to mean only what they wish it to mean. Why? Because if they accepted your definition they would actually have to find counterarguments. As ive said before its personal to them.

  5. #65
    Hero Musouka's Avatar
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    Chai is right... I didn't see it coming until the first time they decided to sell +3 tomes... now look at where we are with the DDO store... So what's next for them to introduce into the store? The problem is accelerating.
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  6. #66
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musouka View Post
    Chai is right... I didn't see it coming until the first time they decided to sell +3 tomes... now look at where we are with the DDO store... So what's next for them to introduce into the store? The problem is accelerating.
    I know. What's next? I bet they'll be selling actual "power" in the store next and label it Epic Destinies.

  7. #67
    The Hatchery kierg10's Avatar
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    at this point 13/67 posts in this thread belong to chai.


    Might read thread later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    What I think is OP is anyone who uses implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill to be more effective in quests then I am - so I then find the time to post complaints about their use of implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill thus making me OP on the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

  8. #68
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kierg10 View Post
    at this point 13/67 posts in this thread belong to chai.


    Might read thread later.
    Chai-bombed. Next thread.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    It doesn't make me an apologist to say it's ridiculous to resent others for how they get their things. If people enjoy farming (like me) farm for our hearts content and get the stuff that way. If they want to spend irl money on it, I don't give a hoot, spend your money so the game I enjoy playing stays open and hopefully developes new things along the way. It's their game experience, they're choice. If that barb in the party bought +5 tomes I don't give a hoot, as long as he's swinging his weapon in the quest with me (and I never thought I would say this, but I was in an ee with a barbarian recently that wouldn't hit anything, it was odd) or that caster is slinging spells with his extra mana so that we get through the quest, and get our exp and loot. It does NOT affect my game play in anyway how anyone else got thier stuff. I have the same choices as they do, and I make the ones that are right for me (and my cheap it's not worth money to me) nature.

    Pay to win in a game like ddo strikes me as a strange concept anyway. Let's say I go mad and buy +5 tomes and ever raid loot item in the game (as some of the people say loudly on the forums will happen someday). What exactly have I won? Oh yeah, nothing. I just bought some stuff. I still have to quest and try to get along nicely with others in parties, or I've won a "I have nothing left to do, time to find another game" moment. Who really cares besides me? If you buy them all, it doesn't affect me at all either. Heck, depending on the other guys personality it may benefit to me. Some people say "I don't need this, here".

    If I am affected by anyone else's choices of what to spend money on in a game like this, it's because I choose to be, and am spending way too much time obsessing about what other people have. I suspicion that people who do also do the same thing with the materials things other people in their irl lives have.

    This right here. Agreed 100 percent!

  10. #70
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    First of all, i'm going to limit my comments specifically to the midwinter and risia festivals.

    What is it exactly that people have to buy tokens to get? If you are getting 3 tokens per day, you can get the bear cub without buying any tokens, and still have motes left over. You can still buy motes in huge quantites on the auction house. If that is too expensive, which most of them are, Use the trade channel and you can get them for much less.
    The midwinter recipes themselves seem to be somewhat unpopular, it seems you could probably get most of them for next to nothing.

    If you don't have time to do the midwinter skate everyday, if you can just log in for one minute, you can stock up the tokens until you have time to use them

    Since the risia recipes themselves use less motes than they used to, and less people are actually interested in using them for whatever reason, the vast majority of mote selling has to be related to the bear cub. First, it hardly constitutes winning in any sense of the word, except maybe the highly competitive aww it's cute sweepstakes.

    Lastly, if you can't match any of the criteria above, learn to freakin jump on the ramps. With all the people in the Crucible thread going on about how easy it is to learn that quest, well guess what. Learning to get the purple coins is easy too. Guaranteed the average person can learn to get purple coins faster than they can learn to do that Crucible swim on a non-evasion toon.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You have defined what you mean by p2w many times, but they will still see it to mean only what they wish it to mean. Why? Because if they accepted your definition they would actually have to find counterarguments. As ive said before its personal to them.
    I love that a couple people are agreeing with Chai VIA making really nebulous and airy generalizations. It proves the point that his use of terms like P2W and cheat, are intended to polarize opposition to his side in the form of people who aren't sure why P2W is bad, they're just Sure that it must be bad because it sounds bad. In this Chai has been successful.

    We could have a very reasonable discussion about whether DDO's store and items in it actually hurt the game, but what we keep getting is FUD tactics and Chai proclaiming rightness based on nothing. Then he gets a few people on his side, who then make vague statements about how how the other side "would have to find counter arguments".

    Counter arguments have been plentiful, but as usual reason always takes a back seat to hyperbole like "p2w" intended to promote a torches and pitch forks mob mentality.

    Want a counter argument? I bought a completionist account with every item in the game, and its on your favorite server, it was a while back, please tell me when you first noticed "the harm" it did to you or the game... what's that you say? You can't so much as tell that I did that? Let alone detail the harm it caused? So if buying every cool thing in the game didn't ruin the game for you, how in the world will a + 4 tome or raid timer do it? It won't of course. Once you peer past the FUD Chai is spreading the boogyman turns out to be your shirt hanging on a chair back.
    Last edited by IronClan; 01-19-2013 at 12:38 AM. Reason: tipeing on fone not so gud
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #72
    Community Member ~Glimrac's Avatar
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    +1 to IronClan if I could. In-game forum rep doesn't seem to be working.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Full_Bleed View Post
    At this point, I really do think that people are choosing to be confused. Chai actually goes out of his way to explain the pitfalls of the growing P2W system and as I look around I see gaggles of ostriches with their heads in the sand.

    Now that you can (and, in fact, *have* to) buy the Midwinter tokens that basically give even the most inept skater 100 to 200 motes every 3 minutes
    Pardon my quoting but phones are horrible for forum posting. First off motes; that's just not true, the Risia motes are interchangeable, no "have to" about it. This isn't the pay to win,you're looking for.

    Now your first paragraph, appears to be just a loosely aimed passive aggressive insult. Another nebulous generalization. At least be specific about what it is people are supposedly trying to ignore.

    If P2W as it is misapplied to DDO is harmful, how is it harmful?

    In a nutshell this is the entire debate, as Chai has been seemingly very hesitant to A) specify how the current store items are harmful, or B) back up claims of it being harmful with data or evidence. In the cases where he has made claims.

    We've heard him say "people will buy everything get bored and leave" but when pressed he's said that's not his main concern.

    How does me buying an item, that you would rather I have to "earn" with my time harm your gameplay? Fair question no? I think we need a valid answer to that before anyone can be said to be trying to ignore that, whatever that is...

    To me It seems to boil down to the same thing: I don't want you to buy something that took me a long time to get, or: I don't want things to be purchasable because I might be tempted to buy it instead of grinding for it. However it also seems like no one wants to be the one to admit either of those lol. I can see why. So we get long claim filled fact devoid theories and proclamations of "I'm right, and everyone knows I'm right".
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #74
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I love that a couple people are agreeing with Chai VIA making really nebulous and airy generalizations. It proves the point that his use of terms like P2W and cheat, are intended to polarize opposition to his side in the form of people who aren't sure why P2W is bad, they're just Sure that it must be bad because it sounds bad. In this Chai has been successful.

    We could have a very reasonable discussion about whether DDO's store and items in it actually hurt the game, but what we keep getting is FUD tactics and Chai proclaiming rightness based on nothing. Then he gets a few people on his side, who then make vague statements about how how the other side "would have to find counter arguments".

    Counter arguments have been plentiful, but as usual reason always takes a back seat to hyperbole like "p2w" intended to promote a torches and pitch forks mob mentality.

    Want a counter argument? I bought a completionist account with every item in the game, and its on your favorite server, it was a while back, please tell me when you first noticed "the harm" it did to you or the game... what's that you say? You can't so much as tell that I did that? Let alone detail the harm it caused? So if buying every cool thing in the game didn't ruin the game for you, how in the world will a + 4 tome or raid timer do it? It won't of course. Once you peer past the FUD Chai is spreading the boogyman turns out to be your shirt hanging on a chair back.
    What i see is that the forums has two groups, well actually one group and one person that are in (almost) constant opposition. One person cares strongly about certain things, while the other groups cares strongly about opposing him.

    You ARE the crowd with pitchforks and ttorches, whther Chai has promoted your creation or not, you keep storming his lab every time he does something. As to arguments, it rare to see any argument from your side besides "i dont care" or "youre wrong".

    Some things i HAVE noticed that are rather annoying, are that the HP requirements have gone up at athe same rate as tomes have popped up in the store. The raid timer bypasses have caused the ones using them become even touchier about success, since theyve paid good money for it.

  15. #75
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    Well, if I am understanding it correctly, Chai doesn't really care so much about the individual impact of the DDO store but the global effects of it which may or may not shorten the lifespan of the game.

    The problem, as I see it, is that even if Chai is correct and that the DDO store's arrangement accelerates people to leave the game out of boredom from completing all the content - since it is now easier , thus the sentiment of 'pay to win' - we can't really ever determine if that is the sole reason why people left the game.

    What I am trying to say is if we were to divide up the reasons why DDO collapsed in the end how much could we attribute it to the DDO store? How much to outside influences such as Neverwinter or Pathfinder or whatever else? etc.

    So even if we were to say "Chai, dudebro, you're totally right" we can't really say how significant its impact is. Certainly, he can/has/will argue that the content completion rate is being accelerated but that is merely identifying the symptom of a much larger problem - one which theoretically, Neverwinter, is solving through allowing player generated content (which beats the living **** out of randomized dungeons like say Diablo does it). Basically, even if you took away the DDO store we still would run out of content at most likely nearly the same speed.

    So what Chai is arguing can either be massive or nearly insignificant. It seems like most of you are claiming that it is insignificant but we don't really have the metrics to operate under (goes for all sides really) and instead of talking about that, more effort should be focused on how to deliver content that players want/need at the most efficient price thereby preserving the game we like.

    I propose the devs just give us a game editor where we are allotted a certain amount of points and so long as we conform to those point values we can create dungeons that are new, fresh, challenging with worthwhile loot. Of course this will never happen.

  16. #76
    Community Member Xandrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Chai-bombed. Next thread.
    No doubt... its getting old, reading pages of the same babble in every thread now.

    bab·ble (bbl)
    v. bab·bled, bab·bling, bab·bles
    1. To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds: Babies babble before they can talk.
    2. To talk foolishly or idly; chatter
    3. To make a continuous low, murmuring sound, as flowing water.
    Last edited by Xandrel; 01-19-2013 at 08:15 AM.
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  17. #77
    Community Member ~Glimrac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Some things i HAVE noticed that are rather annoying, are that the HP requirements have gone up at athe same rate as tomes have popped up in the store. The raid timer bypasses have caused the ones using them become even touchier about success, since theyve paid good money for it.
    I don't think so.

    HP requirements went up the second everyone was allowed to see everyone else's hit points. I haven't noticed an increased progression as tome increments became available for sale. Most people don't exclude others because of HP anyway; only a small majority of players do that.

    Not sure about the raid timers, but I would have thought that if a raid failed you could just re-run it since the timer was still off. Honestly, people have ALWAYS been ticked off when a raid fails.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It is pay to win, regardless of the semantics people use to say it isnt. The widely accepted definition of p2w has never required that people have to be competing in order for the definition to be accurate. I can see why people hate it more in a PVP game where skill becomes less of a deciding factor, but it doesnt make the term stop meaning what it means when applied to a PVE game.

    So I guess it's obvious that you lost.... Some people just can't ever seem to win can they....

  19. #79
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It is pay to win, regardless of the semantics people use to say it isnt. The widely accepted definition of p2w has never required that people have to be competing in order for the definition to be accurate. I can see why people hate it more in a PVP game where skill becomes less of a deciding factor, but it doesnt make the term stop meaning what it means when applied to a PVE game.
    Just when I think you've found a cure for your rectal cranial inversion, you post something like this in a thread that contains nothing about P2W.

    Here's my advice. Quit being jealous of other people's money. Play the game your way and let others play theirs. It's time for you to quit insulting people. Go build your own game with no store so it will never happen and you'll be in your utopia and we wont have to listen to your incessant whining. Enough is enough. P2W is a myth that people without money made up to make those with money feel bad.

    Well guess what... I would bypass all of the grinding (passed 20 runs) and buy it from the store if I had the money because grinding is boring. Missing out on loot because no one runs those quests sux and even more sucky is having to go back to a low level quest and solo it.

    Sorry dude but I'm calling your P2W rant what it is. And insult. I find it offensive, belittling, and rude. It's antagonistic and frankly Im surprised that Turbine has let you berate the people of the forums with if for as long as they have. I grow tired of children trying to beat me down with words because they feel insignificant over others people's financial well being. I buy what I buy, when I buy it because I would get bored and quit otherwise.
    Last edited by Xynot2; 01-19-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  20. #80
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimrac View Post
    I don't think so.

    HP requirements went up the second everyone was allowed to see everyone else's hit points. I haven't noticed an increased progression as tome increments became available for sale. Most people don't exclude others because of HP anyway; only a small majority of players do that.

    Not sure about the raid timers, but I would have thought that if a raid failed you could just re-run it since the timer was still off. Honestly, people have ALWAYS been ticked off when a raid fails.
    HP requirements have been steadily increasing. I cant say for certain if it is because getting more hp has become easier, or because theres a lot more of poor players around. (that is, when one IS posted which is not the case in the majority of LFMs).

    Yeah, i believe you can rerun it, but some people seem to think it costs them something extra if you have paid for the timer bypass.

    Basically what the "p2w" items in the store have done, is that they have made the foolish even more so, and opened the doors for even greater silliness.

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