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  1. #1
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    Default Pale Master Guide

    **Updated for U23 -- Build updated in post 2, and new commentary starts with Post #48**

    U19 brought with it significant changes for the DC caster, and brought them back into a viable, contributing member of a EE group. Mob saves did not increase nearly as much as U17 and U18. Additionally, with the advent of revised enhancement tree, +11 stat items, +5 dc items and Spell Focus Mastery now stacking with school mastery items; it is possible to get meaningful spell dc's for EE content. I have updated the below post with my notes and analysis that I performed while building my PM. The second post includes my updated build that I am playing right now.

    As always I welcome feedback, comments and suggestions.

    Key Considerations:

    - Build is focused on end game content (Epic Elite)
    - No fail spell pen for all mobs is not required: You can get to a 55 Spell Penetration while running EE drow content the first time and then swap out to more meaningful feats/twists after. If you ever need to run EE Drow content again, just swap over to the easy button that is Shiradi.
    - Minimum of a 36pt build (Wizard x1 and Bard x1) is assumed: While you can build a solid first life wizard, the benefits of past lives are critical to end game success for a PM
    - Push spell DC’s as high as reasonable (keeping other considerations in mind), priority order: Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration/Evocation

    Race:

    Where once there was some consideration and flexibility on which race to take, with the advent of the new enhancement system that went away. There are really only two options for race, Drow and Sun Elf. Both are hands down the best choice for a fleshy DC based wizard. They have +3 intelligence over the next best option, which is human. Human only gets you an extra feat (which you don’t need) and +2 con (only 28hp), at the cost of 2 to all your DC’s.

    Sun Elf is overall the best choice due to it having all the same benefits as Drow, plus they have access to Feywild Tap, granting ~900 extra spell points between shrines. They also have easy access to 3 additional points of spell pen if it is needed. The only downside to Sun Elf is the cost of a +1 heart (to get rid of the cleric level). If you are on a final life, Sun Elf is the way to go.

    For wizards you are either Sun Elf or Drow for (EE) DC casting, or Warforged for Shiradi (outside scope of this guide). I can’t see any major benefit to any other race.

    Multi-Classing:

    For the highest DC's pure 20 wizard is ideal. However, a 2 level spash in Rogue (traps + Evasion) or Monk (Evasion + saves) is not bad option. You lose the capstone (2 points of Intelligence), a wizard feat (likely Empower), and some spells (Loss of Power Word: Kill is the big one); but gain more suravability and some extra utility. Personally, I prefer 20 wizard (mostly flavor reasons), but there is nothing wrong with a 2 level dip.

    Attributes / Spell DCs / Spell pen Breakdowns

    Max Intelligence, take Constitution to 16, and call it done.

    Max [Sustainable] Intelligence breakdown: 87* -- (20 base +7 tome* +7 level ups +2 enh (PM) +4 enh (harper) +2 enh (Sun/Drow Elf) +2 capstone + 11 item +4* Insight +1 exceptional +2 profane (litany) + 6 destinies +3 Twists +1 epic completionist twist +4 lich +2 yugo +2 ship +3 epic feats +2 completionist* + 2 lasting pot). Unstainable (but not counting silly stuff like Joy of the Queen) max int = 96 (+4 profane (cookies, stack with litany) +3 House D pots +2 Bard)

    Most people will not be completionists, be willing to invest all twists and epic feats in Int, wear a sub-standard armor for casters or have a +7 int tome, so for normal purposes I consider the max intelligence to be 80 (20 base +6 tome +7 level ups +7 enh (PM/AM/Sun Elf/Harper) +2 capstone + 11 item +3 Insight +1 exceptional +2 profane (litany) + 6 destinies +2 Twists +4 lich +2 yugo +2 ship +1 epic feats +2 lasting potion), freeing up 2 epic feats and 1 twist slot (2 for assuming epic completionists).

    Max [Sustainable] Spell DC's breakdown assuming 80 int (add +1 if completionist, add +1 if you are willing to drop ruin and have a +7 tome or are willing to run in magister and drop energy burst.)

    Please note that it is not possible to have max DC's in all spheres, the below calcs are only present to show what is possible. I would recommend either Necromany or Enchantment to be your primary and chose the other for your secondary. If you are spending most of your time running Mark of Death on EE, Transmutation primary is ideal.

    NOTE: The Epic Deific Diadem adds up to a +2 DC bonus as long as you cast a spell of that school first. I didn't include its bonus in any of the calculations except for Necromancy as Death Aura ticks constantly keep you at +2 necro DC's

    Necromancy: 77 (10 base + 9 spell level + 35 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Lich +1 Necro focus +1 Archmage +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild +2 Sacred (Deific focus II)

    Enchantment: 77 (10 base + 9 spell level + 34 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore +2 Vampire Form +2 Archmage +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 Guild)

    Illusion: 78 (10 base + 9 spell level + 35 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life +2 Archmage +3 Magister +3 Draconic Presence (PK only) +1 Guild + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild)

    Conj and Evocation: 78 (10 base + 9 spell level + 34 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life +2 Archmage +3 Magister +2 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild )

    Transmutation: 74 (10 base + 9 spell level + 35 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life +2 Archmage +3 Magister +1 ship + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild)

    Max [Sustainable] Spell Penetration breakdown

    Getting Max Spell Pen is very limiting and causes a significant hit to your spell DCs which are much more important. I would not recommend anyone bother, considering that Spell Resistance is not prevalent in end game mobs. Calculation is listed below mostly for reference.

    Spell Pen: 66/69 in one school (20 base + 5 epic destiny + 3 Elven Arcanum [Elf / Morninglord] +3 Archmage Spell Pen + 2 Spell Pen Feat +2 Greater Spell Pen +4 Epic Spell Pen +3 Magister Piercing +3 Draconic Piercing +2 Echo's of the Magister +6 Wiz PLx3 +3 Fvs PLx3 +7 Spell pen item [Thunderforged tier 2] +2 Arcane Augmentation +3 Magister Master of [Spell School] +1 Guild)

    Again, Please do not build for max spell pen unless you are running a lot of EE Drow content. For MotU a 58 spell pen will get you to no-fail against EE drow priestess and the Drow in EE Beyond the Rift, a 54 Spell pen is more than enough for that content as it gets every other mob at 100%. For EE 3BC the Drow are CR 61 so Spell Pen of 70 (not achievable) is required for no fail.

    For all other content a Spell Pen of mid 40s is sufficient. Personally, I recommend using web and greater shout to deal with Drow and focus more on your DC's. Outside of MotU and VoN3 you don't see that much Drow and I don't see it worth the heavy investment.

    Feats

    Focus your efforts on maximizing your DC’s first, spell power boosts second, and don’t forget Insightful reflexes (it is critical for survival). Spell power boost is important, not so much for your offensive spells but to ensure that your healing burst (negative energy burst) is as powerful as you can make it (trust me, you will need it). Extend spell is nice (mostly for death aura) but not worth a feat slot anymore. One Spell Pen feat gives you the flexibility to twist in up to 6 additional SP from ED’s which is nice flexability.

    Enhancements and Skills:

    On enhancements there is really not a lot of flexibility with the new system. You can really take nearly everything you want. Only real choice is do you want +1 Necromancy DCs and the Enervation SLA, or +1 Enchantment DC (and maybe Hold monster). Further decisions are on how much spell pen (if any) you want out of archmage, and if you want to use the SLA’s or not (I didn’t see them as worth while).

    If you are a Sun Elf, you will have a choice to spend points in Arcanum and Feywild tap, or invest more into Archmage.

    As for skills, max concentration, spellcraft, heal, search and UMD. There are points left over for a point in tumble and max ranks in repair, so why not.

    Gear

    Comprehensive look at my gear layout thought process and effects you want can be found here: Post #278 || Updated thoughts on U23 gear can be found here: Post #427

    Focus on getting the best intelligence and dc items you can find. Effects that are available are: +11 intelligence item, +3 insightful item (ideally goggles), Epic Deific Diadem, Epic litany, +6 Necro DC item (ideally Thunderforged Staff), +5 enchantment DC item (Sage's Cloak works well here), Slot +2 spell focus augments and, a Nullification spell power and lore item. All other slots are better used to avoid/mitigate damage (PRR, Dodge, ghostly, resistance, etc.)

    As for armor you will want Shadow scale with the Shadow caster (+1 DC) effect on it. You can choose robes or light armor if you are willing to slot ASF gear for the extra PRR.

    Handy list of non-weapon sources of Spell Power and Lore can be found in Post#528

    Comment on Guards: There has been a bit of discussion on if the “traditional” guards are still worthwhile in epic elite content. I have done a fairly through analysis on the value of hp guards/dr on a PM when running EE content. In the interest of not making this post any longer than it is, let me summarize by saying that they are not worth it in current EE content. If you are running old EE content, or EH they are great, but the damage output is just too much for them to keep up anymore. You are better off avoiding damage or mitigating it with PRR.

    Epic Destiny’s

    The two primary destinies I would recommend are Magister (Max DC and Spell pen) and Draconic (Slightly lower DC, massive dps gain). Shiradi is not being discussed as it is outside the scope of this guide. If you are interested in Shiradi there are lots of good threads out there.

    Magister is a bit boring, however it allows you to have the +3 to Necro (or Enchantment) DC’s and +8 spell penetrations between the destiny and twists, 10% spell point reduction and most importantly, 1 more point of max intelligence (assuming you are using one of the twists to bring in +3 necro or enchant dc’s).

    Draconic gives additional options with the excellent energy burst and dragon breath (serious damage potential when used with mass hold + sense weakness), Energy sheath for elemental absorb, and extra spell power for one of your elemental lines.

    Full Spell Review can be viewed here at Post #75

    Discussion on Epic and Heroic Past lives can be found here at Post #238

    Important information on how Dungeon Alert affects saves (and other things) starting in Post #555

    Tactics:


    In EH content and below a well-built pale master is a near demi-god, only limited by your mana usage (which due to sla’s like energy burst is nearly limitless). Very few mobs can cause you significant pain, your spell dc’s allow you to kill, hold, web, or dance mobs at will, and your direct damage abilities allow you to nuke most mobs from orbit.

    EE content is a vastly different beast, incoming damage from mobs is too high to take many hits and their saves are ridiculously high. For EE content I recommend hanging back, avoid getting hit. Make heavy use of debuffs (Enervation, Crushing Despair and necrotic ray are your friends) and holds/death spells after proper prepping of the mob (crushing despair, energy drain, mind fog, hypo, etc). You will be invaluable to any EE group, but it is a mental shift when you are used to acting like a demi-god in other content.

    As always, comments, questions, and suggestions are welcome
    Last edited by Andoris; 04-09-2015 at 04:21 PM. Reason: U25 Update

  2. #2
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    Default My Current Build

    Note: I am currently playing a 18 wizard / 2 Fighter split, for any player that doesn't have the gear and PL's to max out your DC's I would recommend the pure 20 Wizard build listed below. It has slightly higher DC's which will make up for lack of some gear and completionist that my multi-class build really needs.

    Race
    :
    Sun Elf
    Heroic Past Lives: Wizard x3, Sorc x3, Bard x1, FvS x3, Cleric x3, Completionist
    Epic Past Lives: Arcane Alacrity x3, Colors x3, Fortification x3, Brace x3

    Abilities:
    Str: 29 -- (10 base +3 tome +8 item +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB + 2 rage +2 ship)
    Dex: 28 -- (8 base +1 litany +1 GoTIB + 3 tome +2 completionist +11 item +2 ship)
    Con: 46 -- (16 base +4 tome +2 completionist +10 item +1 litany +1 GoTIB +4 lich +2 rage +2 yugo +2 ship)
    Int: 82 -- (20 base +7 tome +7 level ups +2 completionist +2 PM tree +2 Sun Elf tree +2 Archmage Tree +1 Harper tree +2 capstone + 11 item +3 Insight +1 GoTIB +2 litany + 6 destinies +2 Twist +4 lich +2 yugo +2 ship +2 Epic feat +2 lasting)
    Wis: 25 -- (8 base +3 tome +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB +6 item +4 Lich +2 ship)
    Cha: 22 -- (10 base +4 tome +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB +2 Lich +2 ship +2 yugo)

    Feats: (General Questing)
    Wizard: Maximize Spell (1),SF: Necro (5), SF: Enchant (10), Heighten Spell (15), Quicken Spell (20)
    Base: Insightful Reflexes (1), Completionist (3), PL: Wizard (6), GSF: Necro (9), GSF: Enchant (12), PL: Bard (15), Empower Spell (18), Great Intelligence (21), Great Intelligence (24), Ruin (27)
    Destiny: epic SP: Negative (26), Hellball (28)

    Feats: (EE MoD setup)
    Wizard: Maximize Spell (1),SF: Necro (5), SF: Enchant (10), Heighten Spell (15), Quicken Spell (20)
    Base: Insightful Reflexes (1), Completionist (3), PL: Wizard (6), GSF: Necro (9), SF: Trans (12), GSF: Trans (15), Empower Spell (18), Great Intelligence (21), Great Intelligence (24), Ruin (27)
    Destiny: epic SP: Negative (26), Hellball (28)

    Enhancements: (General Questing)
    Wizard: Pale Master (41 ap):
    C: Dark Reaping (1), Zombie (1), Vampire (1), Wraith (1), Lich (1), Master of Death (1)
    I: Deathless Vigor III (6), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Negative Energy Conduit III (3)
    Ii: Efficient: Quicken III (6), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Bone Armor III (3)
    III: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2), Cloak of Night I (1)
    IV: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2),
    V: Improved Shrouding (2), Necromantic Focus (2)

    Wizard: Archmage (25 ap):
    C: Necromancy IV (4)
    I: Traditionalist Caster III (3), Spell Critical (2)
    II: Spell Critical (2), Efficient: Maximize III (6)
    III: Spell Critical (2), Intelligence (2)
    IV: Intelligence (2), Spell Focus: Necro (2)

    Sun Elf (6 ap):
    C: Accuracy II (2ap), Intelligence II (4ap),

    Harper (8 ap):
    C: Agent of Good (1), Harper Training: Intelligence (2)
    I: Harper Enchantment (2), Traveler’s Toughness II (2)
    II: Magical Endurance I (1)

    Enhancements: (EE MoD setup)
    Wizard: Pale Master (31 ap):
    C: Dark Reaping (1), Zombie (1), Vampire (1), Wraith (1), Lich (1),
    I: Deathless Vigor I (2), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Negative Energy Conduit III (3)
    Ii: Efficient: Quicken III (6), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Bone Armor III (3)
    III: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2),
    IV: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2),

    Wizard: Archmage (41 ap):
    C: Transmutation V (5), Master of Magic (1)
    I: Traditionalist Caster III (3), Spell Critical (2)
    II: Spell Critical (2), Efficient: Maximize III (6), Efficient: Empower (2)
    III: Spell Critical (2), Intelligence (2),
    IV: Intelligence (2), Spell Focus: Transmutation (2), Spell Critical (2), Efficent Heighten II (4)
    V: Arcane Supremacy (2), School Mastery II: Transmutation (2), School Mastery: Necro (2)

    Sun Elf (8 ap):
    C: Accuracy II (2ap), Intelligence II (4ap),
    I: Rejuvenation of the Dawn (2)

    Spell DCs:
    Add up-to +4 if using non-renewable consumables (Cookies & House D pots) & and if you have a bard along.
    I only added Deific Focus into the Necro DC’s as Death Aura keeps it at +2 nearly all the time. Add up to +2 to all other schools if you charge the Focus first.

    Generic to all: +61 (10 base +9 lvl +36 Int +1 wiz +2 augment +1 Unique +1 Profane +1 Guild)

    Necromancy – 77; (+61 Generic +2 feats +1 Lich +1 PM +1 AM +3 ED +6 Item +2 Deific Focus II)
    Enchantment – 69; (+61 Generic +2 feats +1 Bard PL +5 Item)
    Transmutation – 67; (+61 Generic +6 Item)
    Illusion – 66; (+61 Generic +5 Item)
    Evocation – 69; (+61 Generic +6 Item +3 Sorc Pls -1 Unique)
    Conjuration – 69; (+61 Generic +5 Item +3 Cleric Pls )

    EE MoD DCs
    :

    Necromancy – 73; (+61 Generic +2 feats +1 Lich +1 AM +6 Item +2 Deific Focus II)
    Enchantment – 67; (+61 Generic +6 Item)
    Transmutation – 74; (+61 Generic +6 Item +2 feats +2 AM +3 ED)
    Illusion – 66; (+61 Generic +5 Item)
    Evocation – 69; (+61 Generic +6 Item +3 Sorc Pls -1 Unique)
    Conjuration – 69; (+61 Generic +5 Item +3 Cleric Pls )

    Core Stats:
    Spell Penetration: 39 / 43 (20 level +5 epic +3 item / +7 item +9 past lives +1 Arcanum +1 Guild). If I do some feat swaps and some twists, I can hit 64 (66 if i am willing to give up some DCs/spell power and use an Alchemical scepter, but it is really not worth it) for EE Drow (CR 61)
    UMD: 48 standing / 52 with swaps-- (11 ranks +8 epic +4/6 Cha +3 tome +1 Arty PL +6 Shroud +3 competence +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane +3 guild / +3 epic big top)
    Spell Points: 3161
    Hit Points: 892
    Damage Avoidance: Total of 75.2% of physical damage avoided – 59.5% chance to avoid getting hit (10% ghostly * 10% Dodge * 50% Displacement) + 64 PRR to negate 39% of the damage that hits me.
    Fortification: 225% (130% item + 100% undead +30% Fortification +15% guild -50% yugo)

    Saves:
    Fort: 51 – (6 base +4 epic +17 con +4 morale +1 competence +8 resistance +2 luck +3 Green steel +2 Guild +3 Brace)
    Ref: 74 – (6 base +4 epic +34 int +4 morale +1 competence +8 resistance +2 luck +3 Green steel +2 Guild +6 epic destiny +1 haste +3 Brace)
    Will: 45 – (12 base +4 epic +5 wis +4 morale +1 competence +8 resistance +2 luck +3 Green steel +2 Guild +3 Brace)

    Epic Destinies:
    Epic Destinies: Draconic
    I: Intelligence (2); Energy Sheath: Fire II (2)
    II: Intelligence (2); Go out with a Bang II (2),
    III: Intelligence (2); Red Dragon Heritage II (2)
    IV: Intelligence (2); Energy Burst II (2); Draconic Spell Knowledge II (2)
    V: Intelligence (2); Dragon Breath (1), Flyby Attack (1)
    VI: Intelligence (2)

    Twists: Fury of the Wild: Sense Weakness (4),Magister: Necromancy Specialist (2), Shadowdancer: Intelligence (1), Magister: Intelligence (1)

    Epic Destinies: Magister (EE MoD)
    I: Intelligence (2); Unearthly Reactions III (3)
    II: Intelligence (2); School Specialist: Transmutation III (3),
    III: Intelligence (2); School Augmentation II (2)
    IV: Intelligence (2); School Familiarity I (1)
    V: Intelligence (2); School Mastery I (1)
    V: Intelligence (2); Arcane Adept (2)

    Twists: Energy Sheath (1), Shadowdancer: Intelligence (2), Shadowdancer: Intelligence (1), Draconic: Intelligence (1)

    Gear: - ETR Gear Options
    Trinket: Epic Litany +2 all stats (Blue/Yellow: Open Green: Golem’s Heart ) (alchemical resistance ritual)
    Head: Epic Deific Focus: wis/cha/int +11; Deific Focus II (Blue/Yellow: +2 iCon Green: +2 Evocation)
    Neck: Epic Noxious Embers: 150 combustion; Universal Spell Crit 17%; (Yellow: +2 Conjuration; Green: +2 Enchantment)
    Goggles: Intricate Field Goggles +3 insightful intelligence (Green: +2 Necromancy /Yellow: GoTIB)
    Bracers: Dumathoin’s Bracers (Blue: +40 False Life)
    Body: Shadow Dragon Light Armor, Shadow caster (Blue: -15% ASF; Green: 250 Spell points)
    Cloak: Deathwyrm Cloak (Green: Open) / Sages Mantle [swap]
    Ring: Health 10 Dodge 10
    Ring: Epic Circle of Malevolence: 12 resistance, vitality +40, insightful sheltering +5 (Blue/Yellow: +8 Strength; Green: +2 Conjuration)
    Boots: Spiked Boots (Green: Open, Yellow: Open) // Sage’s Shoes [swap]
    Gloves: Green Steel Earth 10hp +2 con skills / Air 50 sp +4 cha skills / Water +100 sp +6 wis skills, Balance of Land and Sky // EE Master Illusionist (Yellow: +2 Illusion) [swap]
    Belt: EE Belt of the Seven Ideals (Green: Good Luck+2 /Colorless: +15 heal)
    Quiver: Quiver of Alacrity

    Weapon Sets:
    General: +12 TF Quarterstaff 150 Nullification; +1 Exceptional DC; +6 Necro DC; Eternal Chilling darkness (Red: 138 Cold SP; Orange: 138 Force SP; Colorless: +15 Spell craft)
    Nuking: +11 TF Shortsword 150 Force; +6 Evocation DC (Orange: 138 Cold SP) / +12 TF Orb 150 Nullification +6 Necro; Eternal Chilling darkness (Orange: Meridian Fragment; Colorless: +15 Spell craft)
    SR Mobs: +11 TF Scepter 150 Force; +7 Spell pen (Orange: 138 Ice SP) / +12 TF Orb 150 Nullification +6 Necro; Eternal Chilling darkness (Orange: Meridian Fragment; Colorless: +15 Spell craft)
    Healer Role: +9 Recon 138 of Repair lore (Red: 138 Force) / +12 TF Orb 150 Nullification +6 Necro; Eternal Chilling darkness (Orange: Meridian Fragment; Colorless: +15 Spell craft)
    Stone to Flesh: +11 TF Quarterstaff 150 Nullification; +1 Exceptional DC; +6 Transmutation DC; (Red: 138 Cold SP; Orange: 138 Force SP)

    Swap Items:
    Clicky: Cursed Blade of Jack Jibbers
    Trinket: PLIS, Eardweller, Bauble
    Neck: Epic Twisted Talisman, Twisted Talisman, Archivist's Necklace, Torc, Beholder Optic Nerves
    Cloak: Epic Mirror Cloak, Prismatic Cloaks (30% elemental absorb), Jeweled Cloak
    Ring: Djinn ring, Epic Ring of Spell Storing, Ring of Spell Storing, Feather fall, Circle of Hatred, Epic Ring of the Beholder
    Boots: Cannith Boots of Propulsion, Boots of Anchoring
    Bracers: Aquatic

    Standard Spell Load-out:

    Level 1: Merfolk's Blessing, Jump, Masters touch, Feather Fall , Night shield
    Level 2: Blur, Knock, Web, Blindness or Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
    Level 3: Displacement, Rage, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Sleet Storm
    Level 4: Negative Energy Burst, Death Aura, Crushing Despair / Fire wall, Dimension Door, Phantasmal Killer / Bestow Curse (Scroll: Fire shield)
    Level 5: Niac's Biting Cold, Eladar’s Electric Surge, CloudKill, Teleport, Mind Fog (Scroll: Break enchantment and Cyclonic Blast)
    Level 6: Circle of Death, Death to Undeath, Flesh to Stone, Necrotic Ray, Disintegrate, (Scroll: Shadow Walk, Stone to Flesh, Greater Heroism)
    Level 7: Symbol of Stunning, Finger of Death, Mass Hold Person, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Delayed Blast Fireball, (Scroll: Greater Teleport, Mass Invisibility)
    Level 8: Symbol of Death, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray,Black Dragon Bolt, Power Word: Stun
    Level 9: Power Word: Kill, Mass Hold Monster, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Meator Swarm
    Last edited by Andoris; 05-29-2015 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Added +7 Int tome

  3. #3
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    You lose Boon of Undeath for Drow and Elves? Where's that noted?
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    You lose Boon of Undeath for Drow and Elves? Where's that noted?
    The loss is due to gearing requirements to keep an even intelligence. As you you need to run litany, which forces you to use spidersilk for the +3 insightful int. Human's with adaptability would be at an odd number with litany (which makes no sense), allowing you to run Robe of Shadow.

    I will make that more clear in the original post.

  5. #5
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    The loss is due to gearing requirements to keep an even intelligence. As you you need to run litany, which forces you to use spidersilk for the +3 insightful int. Human's with adaptability would be at an odd number with litany (which makes no sense), allowing you to run Robe of Shadow.

    I will make that more clear in the original post.
    Ahhh...got it.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  6. #6
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    +1 Rep and bookmarked.

    Will be looking at this if/when I get back to playing my PM.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Some comments:
    You counted 5 enhancements for drow. Actually, you counted 1 extra for each race. edit: You counted 2 extra for each race. It's 4 for human(3 wiz+1 human), 3 for every other. Drow gets an extra 2 base, warforged gets 2 less base.

    Half elf doesn't work. The int enhancements count as class enhancements, so they won't stack with wiz int.

    Every wizard, if they have it/don't mind the grind/luck factor, should be using Litany.

    The following assumes 1 wiz past life for the active feat:
    drow: 20+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=51+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=62
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=56necro
    +1feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=49enchant
    Epic int wouldn't work because it would make int odd, so you take epic main school feat instead.

    human: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+4enhs+2cap stone+2lich=50+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=61 +1epicfeat=62
    +3feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=55necro
    +3feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=51enchant
    Take epic int because it makes int even.
    The extra human feat allows an extra dc in the secondary school while being one behind in the main school.

    elf: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=49+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=60
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 5int=55necro
    +1feat+3item+10base+9spell+25int=48enchant

    halfelf: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=49+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=60
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 5int=55necro
    +1feat+3item+10base+9spell+25int=48enchant

    feats assumed:
    general:
    2x spell pen
    2x focus/greater focus
    1x ins reflexes
    1x toughness
    1x past life wiz
    1x maximize
    1x empower
    1x extend
    1x quicken
    1x heighten

    epic:
    1x epic spell pen
    1x epic int/epic focus

    human:
    1x secondary focus


    I disagree with you regarding elf. Its strength is for 0-1 past life wizards to minimize the spell pen grind. That extra four spell pen is a lot more useful than an extra dc(s) you get with drow or human. There's some advantage to it with a ton of past lives too, since you won't need the extra spell pen from twists or feats enabling other possibilities.

    Halfelves are good for putting some in wisdom for cleric dilly so you don't need to go umd, won't have to deal with umd lag, and certain item swaps. Though I think overall it isn't worth it. Then again, I've been looking for Flameward Shard for around 8 months.

    I go with fatesinger+draconic+10%sp. Last I tried twisting +1 int didn't work for me for some reason. If that's working then calculations change a bit.

    There's also going to be a big shakeup with eGH so basically the gear layout is probably subpar. The +3 int dragonscale helms and the dragonscale/refined armors with greater spell pen 9 are two things I'm particularly looking at.


    EDIT:
    And regarding spell pen, you just need 54 spell pen for no fail against all but priestesses, the extra 1 from the roll will give you that 55th spell pen point. That said, 50 spell pen has been fine on my second life wiz. I have more of a problem with dcs than anything else. Necro is particularly tough to get working efficiently in EE to the point I've dropped it to secondary in favor of enchant. Other wizs I know who can handle EE well have actually gone shiradi instead of focusing on dcs.

    EDIT:
    I don't see how drow requires so many more past lives compared to human. They're almost the same... The gear's basically the same too, unless you're sticking to that litany/no litany point, which I completely disagree with. And that takes ~40 runs of Abbot.


    EDIT:
    49 dc for enchant on half/elf. That's what I get for copy/pasting.

    EDIT:
    Forgot metamagics.
    Last edited by HalfORCastrator; 01-18-2013 at 05:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Some comments:
    You counted 5 enhancements for drow. Actually, you counted 1 extra for each race. edit: You counted 2 extra for each race. It's 4 for human(3 wiz+1 human), 3 for every other. Drow gets an extra 2 base, warforged gets 2 less base.
    3 wiz + 2 capstone, he put them all togheter as enhancements

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    The following assumes 1 wiz past life for the active feat:
    drow: 20+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=51+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=62
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=56necro
    +2feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=50enchant
    Epic int wouldn't work because it would make int odd, so you take epic main school feat instead.
    62 + 1 epic int + 1 twisted int, he dont uses eternal faith

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    I disagree with you regarding elf. Its strength is for 0-1 past life wizards to minimize the spell pen grind. That extra four spell pen is a lot more useful than an extra dc(s) you get with drow or human. There's some advantage to it with a ton of past lives too, since you won't need the extra spell pen from twists or feats enabling other possibilities.
    Its the same for me, i dont see why would some1 go elf if they have 3 fvs and 3 wiz pl.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    EDIT:
    And regarding spell pen, you just need 54 spell pen for no fail against all but priestesses, the extra 1 from the roll will give you that 55th spell pen point. That said, 50 spell pen has been fine on my second life wiz. I have more of a problem with dcs than anything else. Necro is particularly tough to get working efficiently in EE to the point I've dropped it to secondary in favor of enchant. Other wizs I know who can handle EE well have actually gone shiradi instead of focusing on dcs.
    Yes, you need 54 because you get +1 form the d20 roll. Anyways most of EE drow i find are cr 40-43 so you dont really need 54 spell pen. I myself run arround with 54 for lv 8 and 53 for lv 9 and i really dont remember last time i saw a blue shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    EDIT:
    I don't see how drow requires so many more past lives compared to human. They're almost the same... The gear's basically the same too, unless you're sticking to that litany/no litany point, which I completely disagree with. And that takes ~40 runs of Abbot.
    At least here in Cannith, its pretty hard to people run abbot nowdays. No way id except people to have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Drow: Solid choice but will require many past lives and significant gear grinding
    Why do they need more than human?


    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Drow: 64 = (20 base + 6 levels + 8 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 1 litany + 5 tome + 5 Enhancements + 2 lich + 6 Destiny + 1 ED twist + 1 Bard ED twist + 1 epic feat + 2 ship + 2 Yugo)
    Or you can use twilight + planar conflux, ditch litany and take epic necro focus. That means less dc for everything but necro. In the other hand its easier to do, you get more spellpen, and you can use the maabar robe (or better, you must use the maabar robe). You can make up the enchantment dc if you take GSF enchantment instead of extend. In the end you have -1 conjuration and -1 evocation, the rest dont matters. Using this setup, you also can take eternal faith instead of twisting spell pen from draconic (assuming you have 6pls you end with 53/54 for lv 8/9).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    3 wiz + 2 capstone, he put them all togheter as enhancements

    62 + 1 epic int + 1 twisted int, he dont uses eternal faith

    At least here in Cannith, its pretty hard to people run abbot nowdays. No way id except people to have it.
    Good catch on the int. Weird to me, never seen it spread out like that.

    Using epic int over the epic feat still makes the primary focus the same. Does boost the secondary and other dcs, for the other nonhuman races too.

    I guess server by server it may be tougher for Abbot completions. Khyber does ok though.
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    Thank you for the through response -- my comments are interspersed below

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Some comments:
    You counted 5 enhancements for drow. Actually, you counted 1 extra for each race. edit: You counted 2 extra for each race. It's 4 for human(3 wiz+1 human), 3 for every other. Drow gets an extra 2 base, warforged gets 2 less base.

    Half elf doesn't work. The int enhancements count as class enhancements, so they won't stack with wiz int.

    Your missing the capstone, which makes it 6 for human (3 Wiz+1 human +2 capstone), 5 for everyone else. Thank you for the catch on Half-elf, I didn't like them to begin with and this adds another nail to the coffin. I will update the post with this info, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Every wizard, if they have it/don't mind the grind/luck factor, should be using Litany.

    The following assumes 1 wiz past life for the active feat:
    drow: 20+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=51+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=62
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=56necro
    +2feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=50enchant
    Epic int wouldn't work because it would make int odd, so you take epic main school feat instead.
    (snip)
    elf: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=49+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=60
    +4feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 5int=55necro
    +2feat+3item+10base+9spell+25int=49enchant

    Your missing the ability to twist in one more point of intelligence, which with Epic Int gives you 64 int; 56 necro, 51 enchant on drow and 62 int, 55 necro, 50 enchant on Elf

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    human: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+4enhs+2cap stone+2lich=50+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=61 +1epicfeat=62
    +3feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=55necro
    +3feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=51enchant
    Take epic int because it makes int even.
    The extra human feat allows an extra dc in the secondary school while being one behind in the main school.

    The decision not to go with litany on a human (or warforged) is based on current gear available. If I want to get +3 enchantment and +3 necromancy on items I can either use the lvl 24 robe of shadow and Twilight, or I need to get 2 one-handed loot gen items that have +3 necro and enchant on them (which are very very rare drops). If you have the perfect loot-gen caster sticks, then I agree -- go with litany and open up a level 1 twist (or even better grind out a few more past lives and go Drow for the exta necro DC). My suggestion allows for the same DC's and Int as your breakdown, but without the need for the perfect loot-gen caster sticks.

    Again, this is based on currently available loot. My opinion on this will change once U17 goes live and we are able to get +3 insightful int in a helm slot. As more details on U17 become available, I plan on posting an update.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    feats assumed:
    general:
    2x spell pen
    2x focus/greater focus
    1x ins reflexes
    1x toughness
    1x past life wiz
    1x maximize
    1x empower
    1x extend
    1x quicken
    1x heighten

    epic:
    1x epic spell pen
    1x epic int/epic focus

    human:
    1x secondary focus

    Personally I find more value in +1 DC's in my secondary school, than I do in empower. Since the spell power changes I don't find empower compelling enough as a feat to fit it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    I disagree with you regarding elf. Its strength is for 0-1 past life wizards to minimize the spell pen grind. That extra four spell pen is a lot more useful than an extra dc(s) you get with drow or human. There's some advantage to it with a ton of past lives too, since you won't need the extra spell pen from twists or feats enabling other possibilities.

    This guide is really not intended for wizard lives 0-1. While you can make an effective wizard without a few past lives, if you are targeting EE content, the minimum requirement of 2 wizard past-lives makes too much sense.

    However, as I noted in the guide, elf is an amazing choice for your 3rd wizard life due to the amazing power of their arcanum enhancement line. As for their usage with a full suite of lives (3 wiz, 3 FvS), it doesn't make sense. Yes they can open up some feat slots, but that doesn't make up for the lower intelligence (Elf with 3 wiz and 3 FvS past lives can get to a 54/53 spell pen, 56 necro, 51 enchant, 48 conjuration -- putting it 2 spell pen behind a similarly built drow and one dc lower in all but necro and enchantment). Additionally, the massive enhancement cost of the arcanum line will lower the points you can put into the elemental enhancements.

    I stand by my statement: "Great choice if you only want to have two past lives, Not recommended outside of that situation unless ASF reduction is required or you feel that max spell penetration is required."

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Halfelves are good for putting some in wisdom for cleric dilly so you don't need to go umd, won't have to deal with umd lag, and certain item swaps. Though I think overall it isn't worth it. Then again, I've been looking for Flameward Shard for around 8 months.

    Don't waste points in wisdom -- Half-elf = bad

    I feel your pain on the Flameward shard, but you can still hit 39 umd easily without it [UMD: 42 -- (11 ranks +5 epic +8 Cha +5 Shroud +3 competence [Flame ward] +3 exceptional (epic Spyglass or epic Big top) +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane)]

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    I go with fatesinger+draconic+10%sp. Last I tried twisting +1 int didn't work for me for some reason. If that's working then calculations change a bit.

    It works, you need to make sure you are twisting it in from a different destiny though (I twist in from shadow dancer)

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    There's also going to be a big shakeup with eGH so basically the gear layout is probably subpar. The +3 int dragonscale helms and the dragonscale/refined armors with greater spell pen 9 are two things I'm particularly looking at.

    Agreed, however; that gear is still in flux. As more details emerge and we get closer to U17 I am planning an update to the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    EDIT:
    And regarding spell pen, you just need 54 spell pen for no fail against all but priestesses, the extra 1 from the roll will give you that 55th spell pen point. That said, 50 spell pen has been fine on my second life wiz. I have more of a problem with dcs than anything else. Necro is particularly tough to get working efficiently in EE to the point I've dropped it to secondary in favor of enchant. Other wizs I know who can handle EE well have actually gone shiradi instead of focusing on dcs.

    Good catch on the spell pen -- I will update the guide to reflect 54 spell pen (vs. 55). That would allow either the dropping of 1 FvS lives for Drow, or more likely remove the requirement for the epic torc. If you aren't doing a lot of drow content, 50 spell pen is more than enough (and when in my non-drow destiny I only run with 49 spell pen myself) --for drow content, I don't want 25% of my spells to fail though.

    As for getting Necro to work on EE's, I agree it is tough. I have actually gone back and forth between necro and enchant focused myself -- in the end I decided that it is easier for me to reduce will saves than fortitude saves, and unless I wanted to give up on necromancy spells all together, I needed to boost the necro dc's as high as possible.

    I agree that shiradi can be fun, but DC's casters are still plenty effective in EE content. It is a good idea to add a section to the guide on Shiradi though.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    EDIT:
    I don't see how drow requires so many more past lives compared to human. They're almost the same... The gear's basically the same too, unless you're sticking to that litany/no litany point, which I completely disagree with. And that takes ~40 runs of Abbot.

    The difference is the lack of arcane augementation on the drow build (need to slot two +3 DC caster sticks, leaving no room for twilight or an alchemical item)

    My decision not to go with litany on the warforged/human build was not due to the rarity of litany (I got mine in less than 20 runs) but more on the rarity of the loot-gen +3 dc one-handed items. In my opinion, if you have the +3 caster sticks, then go Drow for the extra necromancy and conjuration DC's.

    Again, this is based on currently available gear. The ability to slot +3 insightful intelligence in a helm in U17 will likely change my opinion (need to work up a through analysis on that before I comment on it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Why do they need more than human?
    The difference is the lack of arcane augementation on the drow build (need to slot two +3 DC caster sticks, leaving no room for twilight or an alchemical item)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Or you can use twilight + planar conflux, ditch litany and take epic necro focus. That means less dc for everything but necro. In the other hand its easier to do, you get more spellpen, and you can use the maabar robe (or better, you must use the maabar robe). You can make up the enchantment dc if you take GSF enchantment instead of extend. In the end you have -1 conjuration and -1 evocation, the rest dont matters. Using this setup, you also can take eternal faith instead of twisting spell pen from draconic (assuming you have 6pls you end with 53/54 for lv 8/9).
    [/quote]
    I agree with your analysis (I did a lot of these kind of "what ifs" while putting this together); however, realize the trade off you are making is -1 conjuration, -1 evocation, loss of extend and all you gain is endless faith. While I have crunched the numbers, my guess is that the 10% you save with endless faith, will be used up by recasting spells twice as often (ie the loss of extend). And if you are going to reduce the drow DC's by 1 then you might as well just play a human (unless you really like the way Drow look )
    Last edited by Andoris; 01-18-2013 at 03:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Good catch on the int. Weird to me, never seen it spread out like that.

    Using epic int over the epic feat still makes the primary focus the same. Does boost the secondary and other dcs, for the other nonhuman races too.

    I guess server by server it may be tougher for Abbot completions. Khyber does ok though.
    The Decision not to use litany had nothing to do with the difficulty in getting it (We usually have multiple Abbots a week that get spots pugged out on Ghallanda), but more to do with the fact that currently you can only get +3 insightful int on a robe or trinket.. and the epic robe of shadow is too good to pass up. When U17 goes live and we can slot +3 insightful intelligence in a helm, it is likely that litany will go back to being "best in slot"
    Last edited by Andoris; 01-18-2013 at 03:25 PM.

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    I have to correct myself again. I added a dc to the secondary dc to nonhumans by counting 2 feats instead of 1. (1 past life feat, and then another for the human secondary focus, but they obviously don't qualify for that.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    The decision not to go with litany on a human (or warforged) is based on current gear available. If I want to get +3 enchantment and +3 necromancy on items I can either use the lvl 24 robe of shadow and Twilight, or I need to get 2 one-handed loot gen items that have +3 necro and enchant on them (which are very very rare drops). If you have the perfect loot-gen caster sticks, then I agree -- go with litany and open up a level 1 twist (or even better grind out a few more past lives and go Drow for the exta necro DC). My suggestion allows for the same DC's and Int as your breakdown, but without the need for the perfect loot-gen caster sticks.
    Because you're working on the premise that you absolutely need 54 spell pen, which is false. 50+ does fine, 52+ is good. You can do without arcane augmentation, especially if you're assuming 2 or more wiz past lives.

    You lucked out(and I hope you die painfully and slowly), but most people won't get Litany in their first 20 runs.

    Not being able to get +3 dc sticks has no relevance on whether or not to calculate the +1 profane int into it.

    The caster sticks are infinitely easier to get than a Litany. They're not THAT rare. They can be hard to loot or expensive to buy, but that's minimal compared to raid loot. I mean, you're assuming Litany, multiple past lives, epic Bracers(just recently got the seal after 7 months), epic Torc(going on 8 months for the seal too), and DC caster sticks are the tipping point?

    Personally I find more value in +1 DC's in my secondary school, than I do in empower. Since the spell power changes I don't find empower compelling enough as a feat to fit it in.
    That's not a talking point since this doesn't change for the relation of human to drow or any other race. If you want to change empower to secondary school focus, you can change the extra feat with human to greater secondary focus and the difference remains the same.

    This guide is really not intended for wizard lives 0-1. While you can make an effective wizard without a few past lives, if you are targeting EE content, the minimum requirement of 2 wizard past-lives makes too much sense.
    This is flat-out wrong. That may be your boundary, but with relation to any player than wants to make a DC wiz, first life is perfectly viable for EEs with elf, and second life is fine with any race(although elf would be best).

    However, as I noted in the guide, elf is an amazing choice for your 3rd wizard life due to the amazing power of their arcanum enhancement line. As for their usage with a full suite of lives (3 wiz, 3 FvS), it doesn't make sense. Yes they can open up some feat slots, but that doesn't make up for the lower intelligence (Elf with 3 wiz and 3 FvS past lives can get to a 54/53 spell pen, 56 necro, 51 enchant, 48 conjuration -- putting it 2 spell pen behind a similarly built drow and one dc lower in all but necro and enchantment). Additionally, the massive enhancement cost of the arcanum line will lower the points you can put into the elemental enhancements.
    Actually, elves will be right there with humans if desired. Instead of taking epic spell pen you can take 2xepic int or 1x epic int/1x epic spell focus.

    drow: 20+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=51+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=62 +1epicfeat+1twist=64int
    +3feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 7int=56necro
    +1feat+3item+10base+9spell+27int=50enchant
    (epic feats being spell pen and int)

    human: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+4enhs+2cap stone+2lich=50+6destiny+1fatesinger+2ship+2yugo=61 +1epicfeat=62
    +3feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=55necro
    +3feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=51enchant

    elf: 18+5tome+6lvls+8item+3ins+1exc+1profane+3enhs+2cap stone+2lich=49+6destiny+2ship+2yugo=59+2twist+1epi cfeat=62int
    +3feat+1lich+3item+3magisterschool+10base+9spell+2 6int=55necro
    +1feat+3item+10base+9spell+26int=49enchant
    (epic feats being spell pen and int)

    So with regard to dcs, some pluses, some minuses. Not out of the running by any stretch. The real boon is playing around with twists.

    20wiz+5destiny+8feats+3enhs+2item+9pastlives+3magi ster=50+4elfenhs=54
    twists:
    energy burst+2int twists 4/1/1
    energy burst+3draconic spell pen+1int twist 4/2/1 (drop epic spell pen for int or drop epic int for +1 main dc)

    Energy Burst is a significant addition to any caster's arsenal.

    Don't waste points in wisdom -- Half-elf = bad
    25 hp loss(17 int instead of 18) for a nice party-friendly option without all the hassle lag that comes with it. It's something that should be kept in mind even if it isn't optimal. Not something to be written off.

    I feel your pain on the Flameward shard, but you can still hit 39 umd easily without it [UMD: 42 -- (11 ranks +5 epic +8 Cha +5 Shroud +3 competence [Flame ward] +3 exceptional (epic Spyglass or epic Big top) +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane)]
    I don't like more than 1 swap for scroll use.

    It works, you need to make sure you are twisting it in from a different destiny though (I twist in from shadow dancer)
    Yeah I did that, maybe it was bugged back then, or it was applying and I didn't pay good attention. I'll try it when I'm on.

    My decision not to go with litany on the warforged/human build was not due to the rarity of litany (I got mine in less than 20 runs) but more on the rarity of the loot-gen +3 dc one-handed items. In my opinion, if you have the +3 caster sticks, then go Drow for the extra necromancy and conjuration DC's.

    The Decision not to use litany had nothing to do with the difficulty in getting it (We usually have multiple Abbots a week that get spots pugged out on Ghallanda), but more to do with the fact that currently you can only get +3 insightful int on a robe or trinket.. and the epic robe of shadow is too good to pass up. When U17 goes live and we can slot +3 insightful intelligence in a helm, it is likely that litany will go back to being "best in slot"
    Comment on Guards: There has been a bit of discussion on if the “traditional” guards are still worthwhile in epic elite content. I have done a fairly through analysis on the value of hp guards/dr on a PM when running EE content. In the interest of not making this post any longer than it is, let me summarize by saying that they are worth it. If you are running the typical gamut of guards and DR items (Demon consort, Boon of Undeath, Lich Form, Con Opp, and greater spear block or cloak of night) you survive on average one more melee hit on EE and 18 more hits from ranged attacks.

    If there is significant interest in the analysis I am happy to post the details.
    I don't value boon of undeath over 1dc, definitely not the way mobs hit in EEs.

    Is that calculation a combination of all the guards, or just Robe of Shadow's boon of undeath? One more melee hit over how many assumed hits? What's the damage of the assumed mob? Please do post it.


    P.S. Please don't post in a different color.

    EDIT:
    Also, keep in mind Torc's greater spell pen is only for 8 or lower, so it doesn't work on Wail, Mass Hold and others.
    Last edited by HalfORCastrator; 01-18-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Because you're working on the premise that you absolutely need 54 spell pen, which is false. 50+ does fine, 52+ is good. You can do without arcane augmentation, especially if you're assuming 2 or more wiz past lives.

    You lucked out(and I hope you die painfully and slowly), but most people won't get Litany in their first 20 runs.

    Not being able to get +3 dc sticks has no relevance on whether or not to calculate the +1 profane int into it.

    The caster sticks are infinitely easier to get than a Litany. They're not THAT rare. They can be hard to loot or expensive to buy, but that's minimal compared to raid loot. I mean, you're assuming Litany, multiple past lives, epic Bracers(just recently got the seal after 7 months), epic Torc(going on 8 months for the seal too), and DC caster sticks are the tipping point?
    Spell pen depends on content, like I mentioned above I run with a 49-52 spell pen when not running drow content. 50 or 52 is not bad, but I have an issue with casting a spell and seeing it fizzle. I am willing to accept it on priestesses but have issue with it happening anywhere else.. of course YMMV. But to be honest the Spell Pen debate only really affects how many past lives you need (beyond the one for the wizard active PL feat)

    As for the DC caster sticks.. maybe its just my luck, have had no luck in finding one (even with running EE quests pretty often) while I had little trouble with most of the rest of the loot (full disclosure I am still hunting a Torc seal, so I feel your pain there; however, it is really not required as you hit 54 DC without it)


    This is flat-out wrong. That may be your boundary, but with relation to any player than wants to make a DC wiz, first life is perfectly viable for EEs with elf, and second life is fine with any race(although elf would be best).

    Actually, elves will be right there with humans if desired. Instead of taking epic spell pen you can take 2xepic int or 1x epic int/1x epic spell focus.
    I like Elves; however, if you are going to do the gear and ED grind for the build, why wouldn't you do the (fairly) quick TR grind for 2 past lives (heck at least get one for the Wizard PL active feat). Not saying that you can't run an EE quest on a first life build, but more of a why would you do all the grind to get to the point that you were effective in EE content, and not do one or two past lives.

    I agree with you, that up until life 4 (3 past lives) Elf is the clear choice.
    Energy Burst is a significant addition to any caster's arsenal.
    I couldn't agree more, which is why my primary destiny is Draconic

    25 hp loss(17 int instead of 18) for a nice party-friendly option without all the hassle lag that comes with it. It's something that should be kept in mind even if it isn't optimal. Not something to be written off.


    I don't like more than 1 swap for scroll use.
    I understand, if you look at my breakdown you can hit 39 without the big top or spyglass (assuming you have ship buffs active), as for the UMD lag, it is my experience that when I need to be a backup healer I am "typically" not swapping back and forth between DC casting and healing that often.. Typically I am standing back and doting while healing -- as for why I don't like half-elf for scroll healing -- they have a 5% failure chance, and while it doesn't seem like much, when the tank is relying on you to keep them alive, a heal failure could mean the difference (as if you are scroll healing that likely means that there is not a dedicated healer.. and the tank is trying relying on every single heal scroll you can cast)

    I don't value boon of undeath over 1dc, definitely not the way mobs hit in EEs.

    Is that calculation a combination of all the guards, or just Robe of Shadow's boon of undeath? One more melee hit over how many assumed hits? What's the damage of the assumed mob? Please do post it.
    I need to update formatting (guild forums allows tables which the DDO forums do not), but plan to have it up tomorrow sometime

    P.S. Please don't post in a different color.
    Sorry. was trying to make it easier to read.. will refrain in the future

    EDIT:
    Also, keep in mind Torc's greater spell pen is only for 8 or lower, so it doesn't work on Wail, Mass Hold and others.
    Agreed; however, I hit 54 even without the torc, and most of the high SR mobs count for mass hold person.. on EE I view Wail as more of a debuff than an insta-kill spell (although the kills are nice) so not too worried about 5% failure, and the only other level 9 that I worry about is Energy drain, which while annoying to have it fail, it is not usually a life or death situation (like a well placed hold can be).

    BTW-- thank you very much for the insightful discussion and feedback!

  16. #16

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    Nice guide, I like it!

    Based on your breakdown, if you splash, the missing 2 spell pen can be made up from past lives for anyone other than drow. That means a splash only requires losing 2 int from capstone.

    However, a rogue splash will likely want a spyglass as their trinket, so unless the next cove has +3 insight on an ML24 spygless the rogue splash is really looking at -4 int: no litany, and only +2 insight. This net of -2 dc likely makes a splash not worth it for EE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Summary Table: -- Sorry for the formatting, but I couldn't get the forum to accept tables :-(

    Format: [Race], [Past Lives required], [Spell Penetration (lvl8/lvl9)], [Necromancy DC], [Enchantment DC], [Conjuration DC]

    Drow, 3 Wiz & 2 FvS, 55/54, 56, 51, 49
    Human, 3 Wiz, 55/54, 55, 51, 48
    Elf, 2 Wiz, 55/54, 55, 50, 48
    Warforged, 3 Wiz, 55/54, 55, 49, 47
    Here's this same data in a simulated table format. feel free to copy & paste it (hit Reply first to get the codes) if you like.

    Race...PLs..SP8/9..Necro..Ench..Conj
    Drow...3/2..55/54....56....51....49
    Human..3/0..55/54....55....51....48
    Elf....2/0..55/54....55....50....48
    WF.....3/0..55/54....55....49....47




    Intelligence breakdown:

    Drow: 64 = (20 base + 6 levels + 8 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 1 litany + 5 tome + 5 Enhancements + 2 lich + 6 Destiny + 1 ED twist + 1 Bard ED twist + 1 epic feat + 2 ship + 2 Yugo)
    Human: 62 = (18 base + 6 levels + 8 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 5 tome + 6 Enhancements + 2 lich + 6 Destiny + 1 ED twist + 1 Bard ED twist + 1 epic feat + 2 ship + 2 Yugo)
    Elf: 62 = (18 base + 6 levels + 8 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 1 litany + 5 tome + 5 Enhancements + 2 lich + 6 Destiny + 1 ED twist + 1 Bard ED twist + 1 epic feat + 2 ship + 2 Yugo)
    Warforged: 60 = (18 base + 6 levels + 8 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 5 tome + 5 Enhancements + 2 lich + 6 Destiny + 1 ED twist + 1 Bard ED twist + 2 ship + 2 Yugo)
    I had a little trouble comparing these with each other. Not sure on the best way to present it, but here's my stab at it:

    All Races
    6 Levelups
    5 Tome
    2 Capstone
    2 Lich
    8 Item
    3 Insightful
    1 Exceptional
    6 Destiny
    2 Twists (Fatesinger Echoes & Shadowdancer Int)
    2 Ship
    2 Yugo
    ---
    39 common int

    ..............Human...Drow...Elf...Warforged
    Base............18.....20.....18.....18
    Enhancements.....4......3......3......3
    Feat.............1......1......1......0
    Litany...........0......1......1......0
    Common..........39.....39.....39.....39
    ..............-----..-----..-----..-----
    Total...........62.....64.....62.....60




    It won't offend me at all if you don't use either.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    Here's this same data in a simulated table format. feel free to copy & paste it (hit Reply first to get the codes) if you like.
    Thank you very much -- this will make things much more readable (and make it a lot easier to post my guard analysis as well. +1

  18. #18
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    Default Guard Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    I don't value boon of undeath over 1dc, definitely not the way mobs hit in EEs.

    Is that calculation a combination of all the guards, or just Robe of Shadow's boon of undeath? One more melee hit over how many assumed hits? What's the damage of the assumed mob? Please do post it.
    Against melee attacks it comes out to about one extra hit on EE (but considering that you can really only absorb 4.5 hits its is a nice improvement); against ranged attacks is where the guards really shine.

    Testing was done on EE Detour (melee) and EE Stay at the Inn (Ranged) on a 200% fortification wizard. In most EE content the mobs hit for a less than they do in these quests, giving us a “worst case scenario” for testing purposes.

    .........Mean Damage....Standard
    Type..... per Swing.....Deviation
    Melee……………....157.8………..….12.64....
    Ranged ……….....48.4 ………....5.36


    Common Guards/DR that might be worn by a Pale Master (Total of ~27 HP per Swing):
    Guard...............Amount...Proc %...Avg HP per hit
    Demonic Shield........30......20%........6 hp
    Concordant Opp........30.......5%........1.5 hp
    Boon of Undeath......6.5 ....100%........6.5 hp
    Lich Form.............30.....~10%*.......3 hp
    Cloak of Night/ ….....10.....100%.......10 hp
    epic Ring of Mire

    *verified through in game testing (100 attacks) all others taken from wiki/forums


    Number of hits before death (Assuming you stood there and took it) for a 700hp pale master, both with and without guards. Confidence level is two-sigma or 95.45%:
    ..............Without Guards……...……….....….With Guards
    Type .......Min.....Mean.....Max .....Min.....Mean.....Max
    Melee.......3.82 ....4.44....5.28.....4.49....5.35....6.64
    Ranged.....11.83 ...14.45...18.55....21.77...32.64...65.23



    Benefit of Guards
    .....................@ 2 sigma (95.45% confidence)
    Type .......Min...................Mean................Max
    Melee......0.7 hits (17.5%)...0.9 hits (20.5%)......1.4 hits (25.7%)
    Ranged.....9.9 hits (84%)....18.2 hits (125.9%)....46.7 hits (251.6%)
    Last edited by Andoris; 01-19-2013 at 10:27 AM.

  19. #19
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    As for the DC caster sticks.. maybe its just my luck, have had no luck in finding one (even with running EE quests pretty often) while I had little trouble with most of the rest of the loot (full disclosure I am still hunting a Torc seal, so I feel your pain there; however, it is really not required as you hit 54 DC without it)
    Just buy them, post something in your server's trade forum or advertise in the trade channels. Also, look in the Eveningstar Weapon vendor's stash every now and then, I just bought a Magnetism+3 Evo stick for 10k.

    I like Elves; however, if you are going to do the gear and ED grind for the build, why wouldn't you do the (fairly) quick TR grind for 2 past lives (heck at least get one for the Wizard PL active feat). Not saying that you can't run an EE quest on a first life build, but more of a why would you do all the grind to get to the point that you were effective in EE content, and not do one or two past lives.
    Some people(like me) really don't like that grind. For whatever reason the low and high levels are not fun to me, and the middle levels are fun but are also when I start looking forward to the 18-20 grind. I much prefer the epic content over the heroic content overall. A nice change of pace every now and then is good, but not "third life" good. If I do another life or two, it's definitely not for a long time. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but as a person who chooses not to do the 3+ life grind, this is my reasoning.


    I understand, if you look at my breakdown you can hit 39 without the big top or spyglass (assuming you have ship buffs active), as for the UMD lag, it is my experience that when I need to be a backup healer I am "typically" not swapping back and forth between DC casting and healing that often.. Typically I am standing back and doting while healing -- as for why I don't like half-elf for scroll healing -- they have a 5% failure chance, and while it doesn't seem like much, when the tank is relying on you to keep them alive, a heal failure could mean the difference (as if you are scroll healing that likely means that there is not a dedicated healer.. and the tank is trying relying on every single heal scroll you can cast)
    For me it's more about if things go wrong or not having the ideal group, not necessarily just for raids as a backup healer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Against melee attacks it comes out to about one extra hit on EE (but considering that you can really only absorb 4.5 hits its is a nice improvement); against ranged attacks is where the guards really shine.

    Testing was done on EE Detour (melee) and EE Stay at the Inn (Ranged) on a 200% fortification wizard. In most EE content the mobs hit for a less than they do in these quests, giving us a “worst case scenario” for testing purposes.

    .........Mean Damage....Standard
    Type..... per Swing.....Deviation
    Melee……………....157.8………..….12.64....
    Ranged ……….....48.4 ………....5.36


    Common Guards/DR that might be worn by a Pale Master (Total of ~27 HP per Swing):
    Guard...............Amount...Proc %...Avg HP per hit
    Demonic Shield........30......20%........6 hp
    Concordant Opp........30.......5%........1.5 hp
    Boon of Undeath......6.5 ....100%........6.5 hp
    Lich Form.............30.....~10%*.......3 hp
    Cloak of Night/ ….....10.....100%.......10 hp
    epic Ring of Mire

    *verified through in game testing (100 attacks) all others taken from wiki/forums


    Number of hits before death (Assuming you stood there and took it) for a 700hp pale master, both with and without guards. Confidence level is two-sigma or 95.45%:
    ..............Without Guards……...……….....….With Guards
    Type .......Min.....Mean.....Max .....Min.....Mean.....Max
    Melee.......3.82 ....4.44....5.28.....4.49....5.35....6.64
    Ranged.....11.83 ...14.45...18.55....21.77...32.64...65.23



    Benefit of Guards
    .....................@ 2 sigma (95.45% confidence)
    Type .......Min...................Mean................Max
    Melee......0.7 hits (17.5%)...0.9 hits (20.5%)......1.4 hits (25.7%)
    Ranged.....9.9 hits (84%)....18.2 hits (125.9%)....46.7 hits (251.6%)
    Taking out Boon of Undeath still gives you more than 5 hits. (5.1 with all guards/dr excluding Boon)

    That said, I don't think you should calculate Conop and Lich form, maybe not even Demonic Shield, in the melee portion. It doesn't proc within the statistical 4-5 hits you'd get(conop 20hits, lich taking 10 hits, bracers taking 5 hits). On top of that, Conop procs hp or sp, so it's really 2.5% for the hp(also, I've seen it said it has a 4% proc rate, so 2% for hp). This would give Boon more weight but without all those other guards being assumed you miss the "+1 hit" mark.

    Also, let's evaluate what you get from both setups, to get the last Int vs. Boon:
    Armor: Spidersilk +3 int
    Trinket: Litany
    Wpn1: +3 main school
    Wpn2: +3 secondary school/arcane augmentation LOB stick

    with two +3 sticks:
    +1 int
    +1 con
    +3 main school
    +3 secondary
    +120 1st choice of element
    +120 2nd choice of element
    +72 potency
    +18 implement
    +225 sp
    maximize 2
    +6 resistance
    toughness
    SP9

    with +3 stick and LOB stick:
    Arcane Augmentation (tier 3 fire)
    +90 spell power in 2nd element of choice (+20 alchemical clicky) and its Superior Lore
    +90 spell power in Impulse/Nullification (+20 alchemical clicky) and its Superior Lore
    If LOB sticks have implement, can socket +7(using old rules, for preEGH) in the red augment for 21 implement.


    Armor: Robe of Shadow
    Trinket: Planar Focus
    Wpn: Twilight

    Arcane Augmentation
    Boon of Undeath
    +3 necro
    +3 enchant
    +120 choice of element
    +120 impulse
    +114 Nullification
    Superior Void Lore
    +21 implement
    +15 psionic spell power
    +250 sp
    SP9


    Assuming you can slot toughness and resistance elsewhere, it really comes down to the differences in spell power, arc aug, and dcs.

    I don't consider nuking a priority in EEs, really just useful for bosses, in which case you can swap to 120/element mastery sticks. The sp you get from being able to twist in Endless Faith due to that extra int makes up a lot for that spell power though. 250+ sp for more nuking/dots, more heals(outdoing anything Boon has going for it), 30 sp echoes for energy burst(if you have it) or other stuff.

    The choice between +3 stick or LOB stick is dependent on how many past lives you have or if you're fine going below the magic 54. With the way necro performs in EEs, I'm fine going with -1 dc(can stick +2 necro elsewhere, challenge cloak or w/e) for arcane augmentation.

    Although this is getting off topic a bit. The question was boon vs +1 profane int. Allowing to twist Endless Faith for the 10% sp provides more survivability than Boon or even Boon and the extra nullification/lore(which is possible to match somewhat with 120 on one of the +3 sticks).



    And I have to say this; I just traded an Abbot seal for Litany in my last run of Abbot, my 21st!
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    And I have to say this; I just traded an Abbot seal for Litany in my last run of Abbot, my 21st!
    Nice, gratz!

    The OP acknowledged from the outset that this is largely moot starting in U17, when we can equip +3 int to the head slot.

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