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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humperdink View Post

    -Charm/Suggestion/Dominate works for the full stated duration in Heroic levels only. In Epic levels it's reduced to 6-10 seconds. This holds true for Charm/Suggestion/Dominate/Symbol of Suggestion. The only CC of this type I've seen that is sustainable is the Shadowdancer ability Shadow Manipulation. That said, if things go really bad in tough content, those 6-10 seconds can be the difference between wipe or not. In those emergency situations I cast a Quickened Mass Suggestion, as odds are you will catch at least some monsters and the agro will transfer to them. This gives you a small window for important follow up actions like a Dancing Ball, WoB, raise the healer, etc.

    -A good number of orange named bosses have deathward which prevents instant death and negative levels. Enchantment debuffs still work though. I use SLA Hypnotism followed up by SLA Hold Monster.
    Just tested mass charm monster, mass suggestion and dominate monster in EE detour, and the duration showed correctly (3 min, 30sec or 1 min 20 sec), however; it seemed the they always saved against the effect (even with suggestion, which has no secondary save) after 12-15 sec. I followed up the test on EH just to verify that it wasn't in any way a DC issue, and got the same results. This is a bit disappointing, however; 12-15 sec is still a long time. I am not a big fan of charms in general, but even with the short duration they can be useful in a rotation when soloing/shortmaning (mass charm then mass hold the ones that saved against the charm, watch charmed mobs beat on their friends, repeat).

    As for orange named, I typically start with an Ottos Irresistible (I want no chance for failure), and then follow up with holds and/or level drains to speed their demise. Your method works just as well (and is cheaper sp wise), its just up to personal preference at that point.

    Going enchantment focus (Enchant Archmage + Magister: Enchantment mastery) is a great solution if your DC's are a bit lower. It will allow you to still get a high enough DC in enchantment to be a major contributor in EE content. Just make sure you don't waste half your blue bar, throwing out death spells (other than wail for the debuff), that have no chance of landing.
    Last edited by Andoris; 09-12-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Epic quests?

    I ask because when I farmed up addy dragon cloak to placeholder for a tablecloth, I found that dominate monster worked great on the wolves in Sunset Ritual even on "epic" level challenge. Pretty sure I ended up doing 25s, but may have been 24. Either way, that's technically epic level and dominate on those wolves lasted forever and a day.

    It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it works differently in quests.
    Thanks Ellis, you're right. Been so long since I checked. More specifically, if you examine the monster and see the Epic Ward attribute, all forms of Charm/Suggestion/Dominate/Symbol of Suggestion will dissipate quickly. I just double-checked in the quest Detour (in High Road) on Epic Normal and Epic Hard. In EN, they did not have the ward and spells lasted their regular duration. On EH, the spells dissipated in a very short amount of time. I generally only run EH or above, so that was an assumption on my part. Also, the spells generally work as normal in open areas like the High Road itself as the monsters don't have the Epic Ward.



    Edit: I just saw Andoris' follow up post. Definitely good points. As always it's a balance of difficulty of content versus your current DC versus how much mana and resources you have and willingness to use them (Mysterious Bauble, potions, etc.). And if used judiciously, it's a great way to help overcome the gap in effective DCs if you are still building a character up or are a player that doesn't have access to everything in the game to max your character out. But players should be aware of the cost and judge accordingly. And it's a good point about Otto's Irresistible Dance, one of my favorite spells CC spells which I use as well.

    In EH and EE, single or mass Charms can be a great tactic to use so monsters agro on each other as the party runs by relatively unnoticed, even though the spell is a short duration.
    Last edited by Humperdink; 09-12-2013 at 02:38 PM.
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  3. #83
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    thank you for all the excellent information.

    getting ready to TR my first life elf PM. I was going to go with elf again for the arcanum enhancements to SP until I got to 3rd life and then switch to Drow. but wondering if the new enhancements make drow a better choice now even for second life PMs. suggestions?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendo View Post
    thank you for all the excellent information.

    getting ready to TR my first life elf PM. I was going to go with elf again for the arcanum enhancements to SP until I got to 3rd life and then switch to Drow. but wondering if the new enhancements make drow a better choice now even for second life PMs. suggestions?
    It really depends on the type of content you typically run. Are you running EH or EE? Do you run a lot of Drow content?

    If you are running lots of drow content and/or EH, Elf is a great choice. If you are running EE, and need every point of DC (and intelligence) you can muster, then I would build him/her as a Drow

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    It really depends on the type of content you typically run. Are you running EH or EE? Do you run a lot of Drow content?

    If you are running lots of drow content and/or EH, Elf is a great choice. If you are running EE, and need every point of DC (and intelligence) you can muster, then I would build him/her as a Drow
    thank you for the quick reply. probably run more EH than EE but happy to join EE parties if I can. generally run with PUGs as the guild I am in usually only has a few people on at any given time. most EE seems to be guild or other closed runs.

    gradually building up some of the gear and have some decent items but certainly not all top of the line. which also steers me more to EH than EE.

    at this point, I plan of going for at least a 3rd life character but if I were to stop with 2nd life - would you suggest elf or drow?

  6. #86

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    Drow.

    39 is the magic number for spell pen on EH, and that's easily hit on any race:

    20 levels
    8 feats
    8 destiny
    3 item
    ---
    39 spell pen

    Note that this doesn't even include any past lives or enhancements.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Drow.

    39 is the magic number for spell pen on EH, and that's easily hit on any race:

    20 levels
    8 feats
    8 destiny
    3 item
    ---
    39 spell pen

    Note that this doesn't even include any past lives or enhancements.
    I was recommending Elf for EH content more for the SP than the Spell Pen. However, if it is a first time player, it is highly likely that they will not have the twists/ED levels to have 8 spell pen from destiny's. If they have invested enough time to include access to two level 3 twists, then they likely are ready to go Drow in either case. If they are a first lifer, or just starting on the destiny farm (and EH is the goal), then Elf with its huge spell point regen + extra spell pen, is not a bad idea.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    ...if it is a first time player, it is highly likely that they will not have the twists/ED levels to have 8 spell pen from destiny's.
    I don't think he was including any twists. If you're in Magister or Draconic, 5 from ED levels and 3 from selecting Piercing. So just get a single appropriate destiny only to level 5.

    Twisting Piercing from the other, and Echoes from Fatesinger, would push that 8 up to 13.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Illusion: 69 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Archmage +3 Magister +3 Draconic Presence (PK only) + 5 item +2 Spell Mastery)
    Interesting thread! You're missing another +1 Ship Buff for Illusion; it's the same one you've included for Enchantment.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Drow.

    39 is the magic number for spell pen on EH, and that's easily hit on any race:

    20 levels
    8 feats
    8 destiny
    3 item
    ---
    39 spell pen

    Note that this doesn't even include any past lives or enhancements.
    do character levels above 20 not count for spell pen? or were you just showing what you could easily hit for spell pen when you hit lvl 20 on second life?

    I am currently at lvl 3 in magister, and have 3 pts in piercing, so up to +6 spell pen there.

    and I have another 2 or 3 from enhancements, don't have access to character right now but know I have at least 1 pt in the AM line and 1 or 2 in the elven arcanum for +spell pts and spell pen.

    so it does look pretty easy to get to at least 39. thank you for the breakdown as well as the information as to spell pen levels you want to try to get to for EH content

    pretty big jump to get up to the 55 or so needed for EE. so looks like which ever way I go, EH should be well within reach

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Interesting thread! You're missing another +1 Ship Buff for Illusion; it's the same one you've included for Enchantment.
    Great catch! Calculations have been updated, Thank you

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I don't think he was including any twists. If you're in Magister or Draconic, 5 from ED levels and 3 from selecting Piercing. So just get a single appropriate destiny only to level 5.

    Twisting Piercing from the other, and Echoes from Fatesinger, would push that 8 up to 13.
    You are correct (that's what I get for commenting and not reviewing my notes first). My opinion still stands though, If you are doing EE content Drow is nearly a requirement, you need every point of DC you can muster. However, if you are only running EH, then a bigger spell pool (or spell recovery ability) is of benefit.

    Personally, I would recommend building for EE, even if you mostly just run EH content. EH is easy enough that you don't need to optimize a build around it. However, everyone has a different play style, and if they know they are not going to bother with EE, then you might as well give yourself more flexibility.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Personally, I would recommend building for EE, even if you mostly just run EH content.
    For the past year, at least up through August 18th, that meant building your PM by TRing into a WF shirardi AM.

    I hear what you're saying about build for the hardest content, but you're talking about a build that in and of itself was not viable for endgame content for over a year, with that year having just ended a couple weeks ago.

    Even now, I would think that the best EE pale master build would be more effective if it tred into this build.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendo View Post
    do character levels above 20 not count for spell pen?
    Unfortunately not.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Conj and Evocation: 72 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Archmage +3 Magister +3 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL +1 ship + 5 item +2 Spell Mastery)
    More nit-picking. You can only get +2 Precise Casting from Draconic Incarnation, and I don't know what the +1 Ship buff is in this one or the Transmutation calc. The Phiarlan guy only helps Illusion and Enchantment to the best of my knowledge.
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  15. #95

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    Oh, right, good catch.

    The House Phiarlan ship buff (enchantment & illusion) stacks with focus items but not mastery items
    The Scholar of the Twelve ship buff (evocation & transmutation?) doesn't stack with any items

    ...I'm pretty sure. Not 100% positive.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Oh, right, good catch.

    The House Phiarlan ship buff (enchantment & illusion) stacks with focus items but not mastery items
    The Scholar of the Twelve ship buff (evocation & transmutation?) doesn't stack with any items

    ...I'm pretty sure. Not 100% positive.
    Oh I'm not sure either. I know House P guy doesn't stack with spellsinger, but I'm reasonably sure it does stack with Mastery and everything else.

    I entirely forgot the existence of the Scholar of the Twelve. I almost hope he doesn't stack so I don't have to revamp the ship.

    Will check both of these right now.

    TEST 1: House P guy does stack with both Mastery and Item. Only doesn't stack with spellsinger +1 DC's spellsong trance song.

    TEST 2: Scholar of the Twelve (Evocation and Conjuration per the tooltip - I couldn't remember either. Apparently he gives +1 Spell Pen too!) doesn't stack with Mastery items (but does stack with school-specific spell focus items).
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  17. #97

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    Yeah I thought it was conjuration but wasn't sure.

    You're right, of course, that the house p buff stacks with all items. What I was getting that confused with is that enchantment focus items don't stack with mastery. Now I'm curious if illusion focus items stack with mastery.

    That's very interesting about the scholar of the twelve stacking with focus items. It did not stack before U19, so there's another clue about the stacking changes. Maybe mastery and the scholar buffed stayed the same while focus items changed? I would have guessed the other way around, but am skeptical they would have bothered to change the scholar bonus type. This could also explain why enchantment doesn't stack with mastery; they simply missed that school when changing focus item bonus type for all the schools individually.

    Regarding the spell pen, before U19 that was a high quality buff since it was equivalent to Minor Spell Pen IX, which was great for builds that just relied on Greater Spell Pen VIII like from an epic torc or an orb or something. Even moreso for leveling, since pretty much no matter what leveling item you found you were only getting +2 spell pen, meaning you could easily just not bother with any item and still get +1 to all spells.

    Now with the U19 changes the scholar spell pen is much less interesting since all spell pen goes to IX. This also had the effect of buffing both heroic and epic torc, plus added a compelling reason to upgrade your torc to epic.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Now I'm curious if illusion focus items stack with mastery.
    It does, I have tested it and the only School mastery doesn't stack with is Enchantment

  19. #99
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    Excuse me, but why SF Necro at 5 and GSF Necro at 9 before SF Ench at 10 and GSF Ench at 12?

    There is a particular explanation?

    Isn't better to focus on enchantment before of necro because of the hold and charme spells that are available at lower level than death spells?

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanaval View Post
    Excuse me, but why SF Necro at 5 and GSF Necro at 9 before SF Ench at 10 and GSF Ench at 12?

    There is a particular explanation?

    Isn't better to focus on enchantment before of necro because of the hold and charme spells that are available at lower level than death spells?

    Thank you.
    There is no particular reason. You could do enchantment first if you wanted. Personally while leveling I usually don't bother with either necromancy or enchantment spells until I get circle of death @ lvl 11, and don't bother with enchantment until mass hold/ dancing balls @ lvl13. Prior to that, I typically just use nukes and a Canifex for clean-up.

    If you are using charms/holds early, feel free to prioritize enchantment earlier.
    Last edited by Andoris; 09-19-2013 at 02:34 PM.

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