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  1. #61
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Great question

    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    So, random question on the actual topic of the thread, but why are the allowable faiths so severely restricted in DDO? I can understand having some faiths that are restricted to certain races, but why is it that almost every race only has 1 available deity option?
    At first my inclination was, "Because clerics need the domains easily implemented and sooner than later!"

    But this question is very sound: after some reflection, it makes sense to me that Eberron is a world full of exceptions and contradictions and grey areas.

    If my human cleric wants to worship the Lord of Blades against all social norms, or my dwarf wants to become one of the Deathless after being an ambassador to the elves for some time... why not?

    It totes makes sense to me that some abilities will be strengthened by their favored race, i.e. the Undying Call ability working as True Res rather than Raise Dead for elves.

    I think that following the general theme of Eberron would allow non-favored races to worship any gods they'd like, and may the strongest prevail.
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  2. #62
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default General requests for revamped faith enhancements

    Assuming the faith-based enhancements (Unyielding Sovereignty, Silver Flame Exorcism, etc.) still exist in some form in the enhancement pass, I think there are some fun ways to increase their utility in a balanced way:

    1) Allow for some subsequent enhancements to reduce the cooldown of faith enhancements. Some enhancements, though good, have such prohibitively long cooldowns for the points spent that people never consider training them except as a prereq for prestiges. At least this way they have the option to "specialize" in using their faith ability (at a cost).

    Example
    Enhancement trained: Bladesworn Transformation, cost=x
    Subsequent enhancements: x+1 (reduce cooldown by 10%, so 9 min cooldown), x+2 (reduce cooldown by additional 15%, so 7.5 min cooldown), x+3 (reduce cooldown by additional 20%) so at 4x+6 points spent, you could use Bladesworn Transformation (or Undying Call/Exorcism/Unyielding etc) once ever 5.5 minutes rather than 10 minutes.

    Alternative tree-based subsequent enhancements:
    Enhancement trained: Bladesworn Transformation, cost=1 point per tier, 3 tiers
    cost=1 point, reduce cooldown by 10% (required: 1 point in Bladesworn Transformation)
    cost=1 point, reduce cooldown by 10% (required: 2 points in Bladesworn Transformation)
    cost=1 point, reduce cooldown by 10% (required: 3 points in Bladesworn Transformation)

    2) Per shadereaper's question, slack the racial restrictions on faiths since Eberron is full of individuals making exceptional choices. Reward favored races by:
    Bladesworn Transformation: reduce healing amplification for all races (immune to positive energy was needlessly punitive), increased cooldown of all spells per Tenser's Transformation (no spellcasting also needlessly punitive), Warforged receive Repair Amplification, non-warforged receive no repair amplification unless they have Construct Essence feat
    Unyielding Sovereignty: no change, good for all races (Sovereign Host has many deities of many races)
    Undying Call: when used by an elf, acts as True Resurrection. When used by a non-elf, acts as Raise Dead except when used *on* elves, where it still acts as True Resurrection
    Vulkoor's Avatar: Drow still call a Drow scorpion, non-drow call a monstrous scorpion. Buff stats for the summons, please.
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  3. #63
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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  4. #64
    Community Member butcheredspirit's Avatar
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    Maybe the answer isn't adding a domain or faith for every weapon type.
    We are already quite lucky that every faith grants auto-proficiency with it's favored weapon.


    Warpriests gain proficiency with all martial weapons and tower shields at level 1 of the prestige. Maybe this can be implemented with the new enhancements.

    This isn't changing any lore, and isn't changing any rules.


    More options are always good, but I don't think it's realistic to expect a huge increase in the number of faiths.

  5. #65
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butcheredspirit View Post
    Maybe the answer isn't adding a domain or faith for every weapon type.
    We are already quite lucky that every faith grants auto-proficiency with it's favored weapon.


    Warpriests gain proficiency with all martial weapons and tower shields at level 1 of the prestige. Maybe this can be implemented with the new enhancements.

    This isn't changing any lore, and isn't changing any rules.


    More options are always good, but I don't think it's realistic to expect a huge increase in the number of faiths.
    So in other less spiteful words clerics have 1 domain right now (The Healing Domain) the thing everyone is hoping for is having more domains allowing for an option to choose what "free" spells and free weapon prof clerics get (and occasionally some other minor bonus)...whats really unique about some domains is they allow for NON-Cleric spells. For example a PnP Cleric with Fire Domain gets:

    1. Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).
    2. Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/ level, touch or thrown.
    3. Resist Energy: Fire: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
    4. Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
    5. Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
    6. Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
    7. Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
    8. Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
    9. Fire Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.

    Special Ability: Turn Undead affects water creatures the same way it affects undead as well as bolster allied fire creatures (reworded to fit DDO)



    As for Faiths even without expanding into Forgotten Realms faiths the least that should be done is separating the sovereign host into its various gods and goddesses. Which include:

    Arawai: Domains are Good, Life, Plant and Weather, and her favored weapon is the morningstar.
    Aureon: Domains are Knowledge, Law and Magic, and his favored weapon is the quarterstaff.
    Balinor: Domains are Air, Animal and Earth, and his favored weapon is the battleaxe.
    Boldrei: Domains are Community, Good, Law and Protection, and her favored weapon is the spear.
    Dol Arrah: Domains are Good, Law, Sun and War, and her favored weapon is the halberd.
    Dol Dorn: Domains are Chaos, Good, Strength and War, and his favored weapon is the longsword.
    Kol Korran: Domains are Charm, Commerce and Travel, and his favored weapon is the mace.
    Olladra: Domains are Feast, Good, Healing and Luck, and her favored weapon is the sickle.
    Onatar: Domains are Artifice, Fire and Good, and his favored weapon is the warhammer.

    Note: Boldrei and Dol Arrah are a good excuse to introduce to introduce spear & halberd but its also possibly they get replaced by random 2-Handed weapons (Like Maul and Greataxe)

    At Cleric level one as a special bonus feat you get to choose a Faith and a related Domain (a second free feat based on chosen faith) granting you the related free spell each spell level...their would likely be enhancements not normally available to Clerics related to this choice as well (see wizard fire enhancements with fire domain) but would likely not be included until the revamp.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 02-04-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  6. #66
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butcheredspirit View Post
    Maybe the answer isn't adding a domain or faith for every weapon type.
    We are already quite lucky that every faith grants auto-proficiency with it's favored weapon.

    Warpriests gain proficiency with all martial weapons and tower shields at level 1 of the prestige. Maybe this can be implemented with the new enhancements.

    This isn't changing any lore, and isn't changing any rules.

    More options are always good, but I don't think it's realistic to expect a huge increase in the number of faiths.
    I very much agree with this.

    Prestiges and domains/faiths should not be the same.

    As a human, if I want to make a warpriest, my toon should be able to be a warpriest of the sovereign host OR the silver flame.

    If I want to be an elven radiant servant of the undying court, that should be just as possible as the sovereign host.

    Devs, please do NOT tie the domains to the prestiges.

    Thank you for giving clerics their domains.

  7. #67
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    So is this going to be added to Lama officially soon or is it scheduled for a later update?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #68
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So is this going to be added to Lama officially soon or is it scheduled for a later update?
    The devs have indicated that this was an accidental sneak peak and that we shouldn't expect to see it in this update. I think it's safe to assume that they will debut along with the updated enhancement system.
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  9. #69
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    The devs have indicated that this was an accidental sneak peak and that we shouldn't expect to see it in this update. I think it's safe to assume that they will debut along with the updated enhancement system.
    Thats what I figured...speaking of which its been about a year since the "discussion" about the new enhancement system supposed to begin...any chance on some more info dev types...well after U17 goes live of course
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #70
    Community Member butcheredspirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So in other less spiteful words clerics have 1 domain right now (The Healing Domain)
    You quoted me before this.
    Did my comments seem spiteful? They really weren't meant to be.


    I didn't intend to suggest clerics already have the healing domain.
    Good and some neutral clerics spontaneously cast the cure spells, but that is separate from domains
    Last edited by butcheredspirit; 02-13-2013 at 06:02 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    None of our chracers should be following a FR deit yet as they are all native to Eberron and the FR dieties arent known or followed there.
    So no one in your real life experience or learning ever changed or converted to a different religeon? Hell I know people who have a new one every other year...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #72
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOTalk71 View Post
    This is crazy talk. Next thing, you will want mobs to not stand in firewalls, acid rain and ice storms. Maybe even purposefully modify the aggro rules to cause healers and casters to get targeted first and foremost.

    What if casting healing spells on tanks/dps that mob is trying to beat down generated threat? When you encounter a melee mob(that you can't one or two shot) being healed by two mob clerics what do you do? Try to out-dps the healing? Or ignore the melee mob and kill the clerics first?
    In all seriousness, doesn't the game work this way already?

    I mostly play clerics. My husband prefers monks.

    When we duo, mobs will run down the hallway past my husband's monk, to attack my cleric. This is while I do no damage and cast no spells. *ALL* I do is activate my healing aura.

    What is causing the mobs to aggro on my toons, if not the 'cleric' class?

  13. #73
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    [...]

    If my human cleric wants to worship the Lord of Blades against all social norms, or my dwarf wants to become one of the Deathless after being an ambassador to the elves for some time... why not?

    [...]
    An easy one, this. You're assuming that it's an entirely free choice on the part of the character, which it is not. A dwarf could dress like an elf, carve his ears pointy, strut around with a longbow, live in a tree, learn to speak in curly language and wear an "I Luv Deathless" t-shirt, but if the Deathless don't want him, he doesn't get any spells. The Lord of Blades hates, hates, hates the squishy meatbag oppressors; so some human fanboi putting an "LoB RULEZ!" poster on his bedroom wall and praying to it is likely to result in his alarm clock coming to life and bashing his brains in while he sleeps.

    That's why not.

    In D&D lore - and by extension DDO lore, as both the current setup and what we know of the future seem to support it - the gods have an objective existence. They're actual personalities in their own right who have a habit of, metaphorically speaking, turning up and rearranging the furniture in some settings and campaigns. [*]

    If they don't want you, you don't get to join. End of discussion. You can pray until you're blue (or possibly green) in the face, but they don't have to listen and they don't have to grant you spells. Entire campaign arcs have been generated based on the premise of powerful NPC's getting upset over this very thing, and they invariably meet with a sticky end; usually at the hands of player characters. It is fine that certain races are the only ones acceptable to certain deities. "Social norms" have nothing to do with it: peer pressure is as nothing compared with the very real possibility of a passing avatar making your daft head explode.

    That said, there's no reason not to maintain balance by giving every race access to a deity with a decent weapon; although there again it's part of the game to make difficult decisions concerning what your character ends up with. One deity might give you a free khopesh proficiency but a granted power of "Holding your breath 10 seconds longer" and access to the "Aquatic Mammal" domain. Another might only give weapon proficiency with soft fruit but a granted power of Haste and access to the Travel domain for Dimension Door, Teleport and so forth. Which you choose will depend on what you want your character to be best at, which is also fine.

    On a tangentially-related note... Domain spells do not replace the ability to sacrifice spells for Cure or Inflict spells, they are in addition to it. They're entirely separate from spontaneous casting and a Cleric gets extra slots to prepare them. Prestige classes such as the Church Inquisitor (or variants such as the Cloistered Cleric) aside, the standard is two domains and one additional slot, so at every level you have to make a choice between which of two possible domain spells you prepare. There's also a Spontaneous Domain Casting alternative class feature (PHB2) which lets you cast *any* of your domain spells on the fly instead of cure/inflict spells, but this isn't the traditional way of handling it. I believe Complete Champion had a similar thing going on, but as a feat which let you choose 1 domain spell per level per day on the fly, leaving spontaneous casting intact... Which would be terribly hard to get right under DDO's spellcasting implementation.

    We now return you to your normal programming.

    [*] Except Mystra, who instead has a habit of dropping dead every other week.
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  14. #74
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    cleric deity = 1 extra spell for each lvl among the deity's domains (so if your god's domains are strenght, war and health you can choose only 1 between em as extra spell instead of having 9 healing spells)

    but that's impossible to apply in a game developed by monkeys so if the day where clerics can choose deity (and that will force to have certain alignment) they will autogrant certain spells

    so you won't choose a deity, and swap between lvl 1 spells (now strenght, next quest war, another one health), no, it will be something like FEATS

    so you will choose a feat to decide your deity, and then another feat to choose your domain(that will autogrant certain spells)

    don't expect that much from ddo, then comes the deception
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  15. #75
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default From my understanding of Eberron--no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post
    In D&D lore - and by extension DDO lore, as both the current setup and what we know of the future seem to support it - the gods have an objective existence. They're actual personalities in their own right who have a habit of, metaphorically speaking, turning up and rearranging the furniture in some settings and campaigns. [*]

    If they don't want you, you don't get to join. End of discussion. You can pray until you're blue (or possibly green) in the face, but they don't have to listen and they don't have to grant you spells..
    This source explains my background knowledge of Eberron pretty well; DDO already breaks the notion that the gods do not in fact regularly "[turn] up and [rearrange] the furniture in settings and campaigns." Nor do they have an "objective" existence.

    Divines of Eberron are suppose to be powered by their faith in the deity whether or not the deity even exists!

    This, yes--the tee-shirt-toting dwarf can indeed pray until they're blue in the face to get their power. This is exactly what I love and what I think others love about Eberron. It seems to reflect some of the more mysterious grey areas of the real world, and is less, "I worship Pelor so Pelor gives me strength and light spells and if I disobey Pelor then I'm powerless." That flavor is less appealing to people that choose the Eberron campaign because they appreciate more nuanced character motivations.

    However, if I am to accept what you're saying, that still doesn't preclude, say, a Warforged from following the Sovereign Host, or a half-elf from trying their shot with favor from the Undying Court.

    That was the point of the latter half my OP--the racial restrictions could stand to be slackened a bit. If you want to make it so that no other favored soul race but warforged can have a faith weapon of greatsword etc. that's your opinion. I find it needlessly restrictive and a poor choice for promoting unique builds and game diversity.
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  16. #76
    Community Member butcheredspirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    That was the point of the latter half my OP--the racial restrictions could stand to be slackened a bit.
    This is what I think about it too.
    I find it interesting that you don't even need to be close to the alignment of your religion.

    Evil can work for good, and truly believe they are doing the right thing. In some cases it may even be condoned.

    The inquisitor who tortures in order to ferret out evil.
    The clerics who slaughter lycanthropes to prevent the disease spreading, as opposed to a the more time consuming cure.

    I like how things don't need to be so black in white in Eberron.
    Racial restrictions perhaps could be lessened.

    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    cleric deity = 1 extra spell for each lvl among the deity's domains (so if your god's domains are strenght, war and health you can choose only 1 between em as extra spell instead of having 9 healing spells)
    I expect you will get to choose your domain spell, aswell as have your spontaneous cure spells

  17. #77
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default @Persiflage, this

    Quote Originally Posted by butcheredspirit View Post
    I like how things don't need to be so black in white in Eberron.
    Racial restrictions perhaps could be lessened.
    Eberron is supposed to embody lots of grey areas that campaign settings like Forgotten Realms didn't quite make explicit. Still, even Forgotten Realms has divine characters like Viconia DeVir that worship an unlikely deity (that may even hate them) and still get their spells based off their faith.

    Unlikely as the scenario may sound, the character you described may go at extreme lengths to convert his fellow dwarves. He may become part artificer and go the construct essence feat. He may kill in the name in the Lord of Blades, yadda yadda.

    Eberron is about exceptions and flavor and the unexpected, not about rigidity and vanilla plot lines.

    I'm hoping you don't happen to prefer the pigeonhole setting you described.
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  18. #78
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    I'm familiar with the divergent ethic of the Eberron Campaign Setting (I do own that setting, along with Sharn, City of Towers and other material), and while my post was (obviously) tongue-in-cheek, it was my mistake to use Eberron characters and Eberron deities as examples; I really wasn't thinking. Sorry about that. The problem is that most of the illustrative list of available deities offered up earlier in the thread were from realms where the race/alignment restrictions of clerics (and associated spells-granted-or-not issues) are absolutely as per traditional D&D rules, and FR is very definitely in that vein. My head was very much considering two different questions at once so my answer ended up somewhat muddled

    Returning to this very interesting theme though, FR deities do turn up and rearrange the furniture. They do prevent people from differing alignments from gaining any divine power. They do restrict (in some cases) access to their "portfolio" domains (sorry, still wedded to 2nd Edition terminology there ) based on race.

    So the question is... how does it get implemented when the two very different campaign settings exist side-by-side? We know that we're due to get Iconic Heroes popping up fully-fledged out of the woodwork in the Forgotten Realms, some of whom will doubtless be clerics. Is it the case that if you create a FR cleric, you get access to particular FR deities, domains and granted powers based on race and alignment, but if you create an Eberron cleric you can choose any Eberron deity's portfolio without let or hindrance? That's an ideal-world scenario, but I imagine it'd be a nightmare to implement in DDO. And would it make any kind of sense to have them able to wander from one realm to the other and still function? FR > Eberron works just fine, Eberron > FR... not so much.

    This is a real when-worlds-collide problem. In the Forgotten Realms, you only get divine power from deities who objectively exist and walk around the place making a nuisance of themselves. In Eberron, you can worship a hand puppet and still get spells, whereas in FR you can't; that is the sort of nonsense up with which the local gods will not put. How to reconcile the very different approaches without totally messing up the lore of one or another setting? Some people are vociferously in favour of Eberron, while plenty of others love the Realms; I can see upset occurring among their respective fans from a lore point of view whichever way the cookie crumbles. And of course the voices chiming in that the lore elements don't matter "because this is an MMO".

    Coming from that latter perspective for a moment, there's another element to the question of whether there ought to be race or alignment restrictions on the deities (and associated powers/domains) a character can access... I can see it being a useful, and tweakable, balancing tool. It's a fact that not all races are equally good at different base classes or prestiges, and maintaining such restrictions could either be used to pigeonhole them further into their existing "optimal" roles (bad) or even things out by allowing people to choose between one decent option and another (good). Leaving aside the DnD lore elements, I can see why it would appeal to a developer to retain the option of restricting access to this or that prestige tree (or domain, or whatever) on the basis of race; it's another tool in the box.

    I'm not taking a position on whether or not it's right or wrong to use those restrictions, I'm just saying I can see how it would be appealing as a game developer to have the option.

    Hmmm.


    ***

    For the record, I've never been much of a fan of either the Eberron or the Forgotten Realms settings, although I've played extensively in both. Greyhawk and Krynn were my favourite worlds; I was always a bit miffed that Dragonlance didn't get revisited properly from 3e onwards.
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  19. #79
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post

    *Deity Stuffs* Cut for brevity sorry

    For the record, I've never been much of a fan of either the Eberron or the Forgotten Realms settings, although I've played extensively in both. Greyhawk and Krynn were my favourite worlds; I was always a bit miffed that Dragonlance didn't get revisited properly from 3e onwards.
    So the thing is despite the little dip into FR all characters start in Ebberon thus should follow Ebberon for any rules I'd prefer they opened up the various deity's to any race (see Persiflage's Hand Puppet Example) also it would make sense for them to expand sovereign host to its various deities to allow for a greater range (obviously replacing some non-existent weapons with other ones)

    As for favorite settings mine are Krynn (w/ Gods), Dark Sun & Ebberon they all have something unique to them unlike FR..which is just Generic Fantasy Land...GH I've never actually tried...I'll look into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  20. #80
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So the thing is despite the little dip into FR all characters start in Ebberon thus should follow Ebberon for any rules
    But that's the point. Shortly, that will not be the case...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    With a new prestige character feature we are calling Iconic Heroes; we think we have an innovative solution that will get you right into the Forgotten Realms starting at level 15. Each of these Forgotten Realms born characters will start as a race class combination with new racial abilities.
    So far as I can tell from what we've been told thus far, we'll have the option to start characters in the Realms before we have the enhancement pass, which will presumably the vehicle for delivering cleric domains and the prestige trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I'd prefer they opened up the various deity's to any race (see Persiflage's Hand Puppet Example) also it would make sense for them to expand sovereign host to its various deities to allow for a greater range (obviously replacing some non-existent weapons with other ones)
    Even if all characters were going to continue starting in Eberron, while we're talking about flavour and lore as reasons to have things as one way or another (which is what a lot of the conversation has been about), it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow the Eberron hand-puppet gods to work in the Realms, while the Forgotten Realms mode of deity worship ought to work just fine in Eberron. It's about the way the settings function, not the individual characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    As for favorite settings mine are Krynn (w/ Gods), Dark Sun & Ebberon they all have something unique to them unlike FR..which is just Generic Fantasy Land...GH I've never actually tried...I'll look into it.
    I always felt that Dark Sun was a bit Tolkein-meets-Dune for my tastes, although I have to say I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the Talenta Plains halflings from Eberron were inspired by their savage kindred on Athas If I had to pick an all-time favourite "alternative" setting, it'd probably be Ravenloft. I loved running campaigns there, although of course it was only really suitable for segues out of a larger world then back again.

    Now THAT would be an awesome version of Mabar; the Mists of Ravenloft rolling into Delera's Graveyard and pulling hapless souls into the Realm of Darkness to fight Strahd von Zarovich; none of this ethereal dragon hogwash
    Crime in multi-storey car parks: it's wrong on so many levels.

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