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  1. #81
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quantum told me about this on Facebook a few weeks ago I didn't believe him (sorry Art) omg this is really coming? My undying court cleric is giddy "Deathless woot" I have played clerics using the "Death" domain before I am sooo going to enjoy this once its in game.

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  2. #82
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    @Persiflage: Those Iconic's are one of two things either hirelings starting at 15 (my preference) or Lvl 15 Vet Status that starts in FR..now either way its going to be based on the Iconic Heroes of FR (ie. Drizzit) so they'll worship their relevant gods its no reason to change the way everyone in Ebberon does their worshipping,etc.

    Let's put it this way if we brought in Darksun instead by what your saying all divine gods should be removed...the method of gods is determined by the initial setting unless they implement some way to "convert" otherwise it becomes to complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Quantum told me about this on Facebook a few weeks ago I didn't believe him (sorry Art) omg this is really coming? My undying court cleric is giddy "Deathless woot" I have played clerics using the "Death" domain before I am sooo going to enjoy this once its in game.
    Heh if I can get my hands on some Arcane spells through Domains I may finally get around to doing a cleric life on my completionist as an offensive caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post
    If they don't want you, you don't get to join. End of discussion. You can pray until you're blue (or possibly green) in the face, but they don't have to listen and they don't have to grant you spells.
    Clerics can have NO diety, and just pick any random domains they want, and still get those domain spells/powers and all their normal spells. This implies to me that they get their power from the power of their belief, not from the diety, but it's not relevant.

    That Human fanboi can claim to be a Cleric of the Lord of Blades, choose an appropriate alignment and domains, and get the same domain spells and domain powers that a "real" LoB Cleric does. Whether the LoB himself actually likes the Cleric is irrelevant. That's the rules of the game.

  4. #84
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Well seems both my guesses were wrong "Iconic Heroes" has nothing to do with well iconic heroes...it is SORT of a lvl 15 vet status but only for specific race/class combination and it uses a "Path" so you can't make any decisions so yeah...even more useless than before...can safely be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #85
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post
    Returning to this very interesting theme though, FR deities do turn up and rearrange the furniture. They do prevent people from differing alignments from gaining any divine power. They do restrict (in some cases) access to their "portfolio" domains (sorry, still wedded to 2nd Edition terminology there ) based on race.
    I love to point to the Lord of Blades raid. If it was in the Forgotten Realms, any divine character of the LoB would immediatelly lost their spells as soon as the LoB notice them there going against him.
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  6. #86
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    Weapons are based on the religion in question, not the race. It just so happens that a couple of the religions currently in game are race-specific.

    The only race-specific religions in Eberron are for the Drow (Vulkoor), Elves (Undying Court/Keepers of the Past), and Warforged (Lord of Blades). Dwarves tend to worship either the Sovereign Host or the Silver Flame just like the other races (or the Dark Six and Blood of Vol, but they're... you know... evil). Half-orcs tend to be druids more often than anything else.

    Now that we have Forgotten Realms as a playable world, of course, it might be that the devs could plan on offering those religions in the future, which would bring some much needed variety to weapon options for divines (the devs could also allow favored weapons for specific deities within the Sovereign Host, or even offer the Kalashtar Path of Light). But until then, we're stuck with what we currently have.
    LoB is evil, and it don't prevents lawful good WFs to worship him.

    The planned domain options are weak.

  7. #87
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    The planned domain options are weak.
    We don't know what the planned domain options are...they haven't actually been announced and IIRC only 2 showed up on Lammania and the barely did anything
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #88
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I love to point to the Lord of Blades raid. If it was in the Forgotten Realms, any divine character of the LoB would immediatelly lost their spells as soon as the LoB notice them there going against him.
    This is one area I think 4e had the right idea (I know, I know, hold the "boo! hiss!" comments): The rule books there state that clerics and other divine classes are granted access to their powers by their chosen deity... and that said deity can do nothing to take that power away after it's granted.

    This works so much better in many ways: it allows for calamitous events such as the death of a god without rendering PCs useless; it allows for "fallen" or corrupt members of a given clergy to exist and still pose a real internal threat; it grants divine characters a greater measure of free will to stand up to injustices committed by their deity and/or church; and it makes divine endowment by the gods something that the deities themselves are more likely to take seriously.

    And hey, if a PC really and truly ticks their patron off in a spectacular fashion, there's nothing to stop that deity from sending down retribution is all kinds of awful ways
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  9. #89
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Clerics can have NO diety, and just pick any random domains they want, and still get those domain spells/powers and all their normal spells. This implies to me that they get their power from the power of their belief, not from the diety, but it's not relevant.

    That Human fanboi can claim to be a Cleric of the Lord of Blades, choose an appropriate alignment and domains, and get the same domain spells and domain powers that a "real" LoB Cleric does. Whether the LoB himself actually likes the Cleric is irrelevant. That's the rules of the game.

    Notably, that doesn't apply to the Forgotten Realms. Even Druids draw their powers from a deity in the Realms, and even Fighters pick a god to worship.

    Not only does divine magic require a divine patron (or infernal...archdevils grant spells too), but if you die in the Realms and don't have a god, your soul goes to the Fugue plain, where you're stuck with 2 options...a Fiend comes by and kidnaps you and uses you as currency, a snack, or raw materials...or you get mortared into the Wall of Souls, and just become nothing but a brick with no memory.

    Conversely, in the Realms, a god can't just do whatever they please. If they don't act within the parameters of their portfolio, they can (and will) be stripped of their power, and imprisoned or obliterated. Which reduces the number of times you have horrible orders from on high (unless you worship an evil god, then that's business as usual).

    And because of this, if corruption gets so bad within the church that it draws the deity's direct attention (or the right spells are used to bring it to their attention), they do take action. And in the Realms, that action can be catastrophic for those involved. It's a world where the people don't quite have faith...because faith requires the possiblity of doubt. Nobody in the realms doubts the existance of the gods...they walk in physical form, and perform miracles far too often and noticably for that.

  10. #90
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    Yep. Forgotten Realms and Eberron have completely different deity systems. If it wouldn't completely mess things up from a game mechanic standpoint, there might be real issues for clerics crossing to the other world.
    FR deities are "Greek Pantheon" style. They are basically just very powerful characters who bicker amongst themselves, get involved in mortal politics when they can bend the rules, and bonk the setting creator's author avatar.

    Eberron faiths are either based on a "god" with no proof of existence, or a powerful force or concept rather than a character.
    The Sovereign Host and Dark Six gods for example have no definite existence. They will never walk on Eberron, and a cleric will never meet them. Their existence is a matter of . . . faith.
    Other faiths draw power from esoteric forces such as the gestalt of their race's undying rulers, the power inherent within the blood of all mortals, and the combined souls of an entire race that sacrificed itself to protect the world from evil.

    Also bear in mind that in Eberron, most priests can't cast spells: Clerics and Favoured Souls are of a level of dedication to their faith beyond most worshippers and are unlikely to swap faiths to FR versions en masse.

  11. #91
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    Notably, that doesn't apply to the Forgotten Realms.
    OK. I'm no expert on FR-specific lore. But it's certainly true in the base 3.x rules, and the Eberron setting as well. And despite a little high-level side-questing in FR, DDO is still mostly an Eberron-based game.

    And how do the rules work between universes, anyway? I.e., an-FR Cleric in Eberron or vice-versa? It shouldn't really even be possible; sticking FR and Eberron together like they did was a cheap hack.

  12. #92
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    Also bear in mind that in Eberron, most priests can't cast spells: Clerics and Favoured Souls are of a level of dedication to their faith beyond most worshippers and are unlikely to swap faiths to FR versions en masse.
    Actually, a lot of them can cast spells. Low-cost magic items, within consacreted grounds, and ritual casting (aka, not instantaneous) could make even that level 1 commoner priest be able to cast a remove disease once in a while.

    If you rule out magic items and places of power, even them a reasonable number of them can cast spells of their own. They just need to be Adepts. Not as common as commoners, but definitelly easier to find than a cleric.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  13. #93
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Good to see

    that we're all mostly on the same page about the faith restrictions being rather arbitrary.

    I still think it'd be a really amazing addition to the game to be able to make a fleshy LoB adherent, or a human who wishes to be admitted to the Undying Court, or a half-orc rogue-splash who makes dark sacrifices to Vulkoor.

    I don't know how they want to or will end up reconciling Forgotten Realms content with Eberron content, but I'd prefer they err on the side of DDO's selling point: customization.

    Even Iconic Heroes (and depending a lot on their implementation, I'm pretty sure most people that already play the game will ignore them, and newbies that use them will abandon them in favor of DDO's core strength of customization) will be able to travel back to Eberron so I don't see any reason for us to be restricted by the least-common-denominator of Forgotten Realm's trite and unimaginative faith system.
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