Only thing that slows xp/min down in Made to Order are the traps. Still i see groups for this quest quite a bit.
Enemy Within has awesome xp, but not for the xp/min crowd. Plus you have to do the under 5 minute pre quest to even get into Enemy.
Its been proven to all of us through the exceptional record keeping of multiple TR lives of a few top end players that running hard took the same time for them as running elite. Thats means anyone who doesnt play the game on elite at the level of those players who did the testing are going to get more xp/min on hard. The trap we fall into is the ginormous xp total at the end of an elite quest, but the extra time it takes to win on elite is not accounted for by those who suggest that running hard is somehow a punitive xp penalty. If xp is the concern, then they should be running hard unless they can beat elite in the same time they can beat hard. The sheer number of complaints that quests are too hard on the forums suggests the majority of players would actually benefit from running hard rather than elite if they are concerned with xp/min.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
Well elitists will always feel that everyone has to run it at their level. I mean how else will they get a chance to brag about how good they are and how skilled they are at pressing buttons and owning stuffz.
By making it not a flag you give people the option. By making it a flag you force everyone who wants to run Tor and Reavers to do it. I paid for the pack. Maybe I don't want to sit around and waste a ton of time in Crucible to learn it as a non-evasion toon. Or I can "dumb myself down" and run it on my monk. That's real skill. Maybe I'm elite and I just don't know it.
Again your arguments say nothing about how it effects you as an individual apart from the fact that you're some how insulted that other people may not enjoy the quest as much as you do. Or that others don't want to waste the time to figure out a quest they may not enjoy. By not having it a flag people get a choice.
As for a special reward throwing the DDO economics into a virtual Financial Cliff (man do I hate that word. Overused). That may be a bit of a stretch. Many quests have nice rewards that are high priced in the open market. RSS for example. Not exactly a skill based item, but I could spend countless hours farming one if I really wanted.
For those that want to spend the time I say congrats. Well done and well earned. I never begrudge a person for a nice piece of gear they earned. And ya know what. If they bought it and it cost a lot they had to work to get the platinum. Your comment is typical of people who are overly concerned with what others have and what others do. If you have uber gear that's awesome. I'm not jealous. If I wanted it as badly as you I'd work for it and in that case I'd have earned it and good for me. Never once do I sit back and concern myself with what others have or how they got it. But most of you posters all have this attitude whether it's a piece of gear, a quest, what difficulty you run it on or even if you use ship buffs or not. You're all too concerned with what others have or do. Why? Who cares?
You want to remove Coal Chamber from the Shroud flagging? GO ahead. I actually enjoy the quest. I'll still run it. That's my option. If someone is next to me in the shroud that didn't run it I won't care. Why should I. If they don't like the quest that they paid money for then why should they have to run it? And if they don't run it why would it effect me?
Also Crucible wasn't removed because it's hard. As many have pointed out it really isn't. I've done the plunge quite a few times myself. Sure all on evasion characters, but it can be done and easily so. It's the mechanic of the quest that sucks. The problem is if the devs try and get creative and change it then we'll get a whole new uproar from you elitists that the devs changed your favorite quest, the world is ending and everything is being dumbed down for the noobs so you're quitting, blah blah blah. So they left the quest exactly as it is. No one has harmed your precious quest. The OP says "Bring back Crucible." Why? It hasn't gone anywhere. It hasn't changed. It still right there. Swim on fellow swimmers. Swim on.
As for the BB comments there is merit in what you say. BB has changed things significantly. I also think that Chai makes an excellent point. Elite BB is nice, but Hard BB isn't bad. In fact on a first life elite BB is almost too much. You out level a lot the quests without getting a chance to do them. Now maybe this is some people's play style and by all means wait for an elite, but as a first life it's hardly necessary. On a second life I can open Hard and often that's what I do. My second life has a hard BB streak going,but that's only because I can open it and solo it myself. If I see an elite I'll jump in, but hard is fine.
I think one of the bigger draws, at least for me, on elite is the Favor for certain quests. Coin Lords, House K, Silver Flame, Argonnessen and Yugo are all nice favor rewards so those I try and do on elite whenever I can. Those influence my decision for difficulty more than anything else and in fact if that reward system didn't exist then I would care even less about elite quests, but that's just me.
Anyways that's my take on it. Others play for different reasons and more power to them, but don't always assume that people do elite for the quick exp (1st and 2nd lifers at least)
I'm betting this is all about solo play. They want solo players to have an easier time getting through the flagging quests. The game has been moving in this direction for a long time now.
My take on Crucible being dropped from flagging is mixed. I honestly like the quest. Yes, I pike most of it (apart from dropping the gnolls once we get up top). No, it's not exciting (even on elite, the end fight is comedically easy if you've gimped all the champions). But it's different, and not in the "EAAARRRRGH!" way that Spies In The House or The Pit are, but in a fun way - it's a test to see if you're 'leet enough for the Fist.
However, it's also got a reputation for being like Spies or the Pit, and getting a group together is hard, and its one of those quests where a group - while not mandatory - is really helpful.
Cabal, on the other hand, is a solo-faceroll-under-10-minute quest where you can get a group together and crush it in under 5. There's no thematic reason for it to be in the chain, other than the treachery echoing The Truthful One (and THAT'S a stretch). I run it for XP, and nothing else.
However, it's a solo-faceroll-under-10-minute quest where you can get a group together and crush it in under 5. Given how long Madstone and PoP can get, it's a nice idea to have a crushable fast flag. But I'd REALLY like a storyline reason for it to be that way. Uncover evidence that the infighting is being caused by an unseen hand, etc.
Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 11 Buckler o' Swashes) // Valissia (Elf 22 Shiradi Druid)
Nae haz a story. Go read it.
That decision is your to make by the way. So if you don't want a "face roll" then by all means chose to do the traps and enjoy yourself. I'm assuming by your responses that you probably enjoy a challenge and will go that route. Good on you.
However don't be concerned if someone else chooses to skip the chest and the traps and face roll it. After all it shouldn't effect you.
I'll probably try the trapped version the first few times and see what's its like. If it turns out to be tedious I'll be skipping the extra chest for speed over loot. But that's just me.
I can understand why people are happy that this quest is not needed for flagging anymore.
But usually flagging quests are harder than the other quests in a pack. And now you add such an easy walkup to the needed flagging quests...
Think the first maze was usually the longest and hardest part for new players who didn't know the quest. Underwater part is not too hard, unless you try it on elite without good evasion or practice in swimming there.
But really... at this level elite is sometimes really elite and shouldn't be the first difficulty for running a quest if you don't know it.
Atm I am doing a TR with only hard streak, and I know especially the quests which I farm out completely anyways yield more exp than doing them on elite streak, since I don't want to farm on elite.
Beeing on hard streak also has the advantage in the later levels, that you can come back 1-2 levels later to do elite. Then elite is much easier and you got more xp shifted to a higher character level and less need to do the difficult highlevel quests which are no good xp/min anymore and need experienced players with good equipment to be good xp.
But if you drop crucible then you should just decrease the number of needed flagging quests instead of adding one of the very easy walkups... Yeah, that wouldn't work storywise with 3 dragons, but really... In my opinion the new quest is not a valid flagging quest unless you raised the difficulty of that quest somehow.
And if crucible is too hard to be part of raid flagging... I'd say there are many more quests in other packs which should be removed from the flagging mechanics as well...
New Invasion - more or less easy quest until the endfight. If you don't have a toon which can solo the endfight you need a group who is able to follow instructions. And especially on elite I doubt random first timers will be able to finish the quest. The need of a group which is able to follow instructions is more difficult than your programmers think, or I am just playing on the wrong server.
Coalescence chamber - if you know what to do it's not too difficult but all the running up and getting hit by casters is still not easy. Especially first timers are going to need very much time in here. Most people I know only run this quest once for flagging... My best was 3 times in one TR to help friends to do the quest.
Wiz King and chains of flame - you don't need to know much to beat these but for unexperienced players they are still difficult and take a lot of time.
Jungle/Gateway of Khyber (VoN3) - I remember the days when I first did this quest, I always thought it's harder than most other quests of that level. And that was before people tried their first runs on elite difficulty...
And again... when I first did crucible I hated it, would say as much as wiz king and chains of flame. But after I was able to lead through the maze I started to like it. It's some kind of break from usual leveling. But I don't trust hirelings enough to solo this quest.
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