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  1. #241
    Community Member Buddrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    As I said a few posts back - I firmly believe the golden age of quest-development for this game has long since sailed. I'm not too thrilled about saying so, but the past few cycles of development has just not even come close to what came before them. This includes the expansion, in my view.


    Simply slapping the Flagging Quest sticker on Cabal pretty much proved that. A rework of Crucible was either too much for them to handle time-wise, or they just couldn't manage it design-wise. Since we know Epic GH has been ripe on the vine for a while now, I tend to think it's the latter of the two. Far easier to rewrite the dialog and massage the story-line in order to sledgehammer in their attempt at a fix. I cannot see this as anything other than an inelegant solution to a task the Dev team simply couldn't muster up the stones to pull off well.
    You forgot to mention the incredible and ever growing known issues list.
    Farm astral diamonds in game. I've been playing for only a year + a bit but I already have 2 astral diamonds. 3 more and I'll be able to do something with them.

  2. #242
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I dont like it, but it doesnt surprise me. This just fits right in with people complaining about time consumption, and whose expectations are to be able to steamroll quests in 5 minutes without the possibility of failure.
    You forgot: have the same rewards as those who put in effort to learn the quest and hone their playing skills.

  3. #243
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Pretend hobgoblins and orcs are trying to terrorize New York. Ask yourself, what would Brian Boitano do?
    http://youtu.be/sNJmfuEWR8w

  4. #244
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    I still don't get why everyone cares so much what quest I run. Who cares? Why are you so caught up on if I run a quest or not. If you want to run it then go ahead. Knock yourself out. No one will be stopping you. But everyone gets so offended that I (and others of course) will no longer have to run a quest we just plain don't enjoy on our non-evasion characters. I'll still run it on some characters, but now I won't have to so that's great by me.

    Why not make every quest in the game part of an advancing chain where you have to run every quest on every life to advance. That way you can control all of what we do. Wouldn't that be great.

    The devs probably looked to see who ran it, how often, and maybe could even see idle times of class types. Then they probably saw A Cabal and how many people ran and participated in that and decided to switch it out. I still don't get how that hurts all you "Uber" players.

    In fact even if they kept it in as a flagging quest what would change for any of us? For the most part (And I'm saying "most part" because I'm sure all you super happy awesome fun time players out there that are better than all of us will easily breeze through it in an uber way while we watch in amazement) we will all have an evasion type or two in our party who will run it as we sit back and watch as has always been done by the majority of players. Fun fun fun for all, or for one I mean.

    So really nothing would change form how it is now. By changing this to A Cabal though it takes a quest that may be easier, but is one where everyone gets to participate and perhaps the "majority" find it somewhat fun compared to Crucible. Again I say compared to because A Cabal is not necessarily the most fun quest in the game, but for non-evasion types maybe more fun than Crucible (You awesome super players aside of course). I'll also point out some threads on Lamm give some good reviews of the changes (They made some changes) in A Cabal so perhaps all is not lost. Though I haven't run it yet myself so I can't personally say.

    People also suggest that people make changes to Crucible, but I feel the same elitist group of people would then get up in arms that the quest was changed to for the "lazy" people who want an easy button. One Suggestion was exp based by challenge, which isn't a bad idea, but of course people would be offended that the quest could be completed without having to do the swim. I personally am happy they left the actual quest in tact so people who enjoyed running it still can. Maybe bump up the exp on it to make it more appealing as a non-flagging quest.

    The storyline thing gets me a bit. I mean as a semi-casual player (I play about 10-15 hours a week) I could care less about the storyline. I mean I can appreciate that others enjoy it, but it does not effect my gameplay in the least. I fly through the screens trying to actually do something. If I wanted to read a story or a book I'd pick up an actual book. As I said I can understand that some people like it and that's great and all, but I wouldn't get up in arms about a quest line due to "words". I mean it is all fantasy. It's not like we are changing actual real life history. Of course I haven't played PnP D&D for about 20 years so I'm out of touch in that enjoyment level, but again with limited time I like to get into the action and could care less about the story.

    The point is that the quest has not changed. It is still the same quest. No one changed the actual playing of it and the challenge that so many people seem to enjoy that enjoy the quest itself. I think that part is great and the devs should be commended for not "dumbing it down". How does that change your experience if it is not a flagging quest? No one is stopping you. Stop being so concerned about everyone else's gameplay and focus on your own and i'm sure you'll enjoy the game even more.

  5. #245
    Community Member Jarlaxxxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumbie View Post
    i still don't get why everyone cares so much what quest i run. Who cares? Why are you so caught up on if i run a quest or not. If you want to run it then go ahead. Knock yourself out. No one will be stopping you. But everyone gets so offended that i (and others of course) will no longer have to run a quest we just plain don't enjoy on our non-evasion characters. I'll still run it on some characters, but now i won't have to so that's great by me.

    Why not make every quest in the game part of an advancing chain where you have to run every quest on every life to advance. That way you can control all of what we do. Wouldn't that be great.

    The devs probably looked to see who ran it, how often, and maybe could even see idle times of class types. Then they probably saw a cabal and how many people ran and participated in that and decided to switch it out. I still don't get how that hurts all you "uber" players.

    In fact even if they kept it in as a flagging quest what would change for any of us? For the most part (and i'm saying "most part" because i'm sure all you super happy awesome fun time players out there that are better than all of us will easily breeze through it in an uber way while we watch in amazement) we will all have an evasion type or two in our party who will run it as we sit back and watch as has always been done by the majority of players. Fun fun fun for all, or for one i mean.

    So really nothing would change form how it is now. By changing this to a cabal though it takes a quest that may be easier, but is one where everyone gets to participate and perhaps the "majority" find it somewhat fun compared to crucible. Again i say compared to because a cabal is not necessarily the most fun quest in the game, but for non-evasion types maybe more fun than crucible (you awesome super players aside of course). I'll also point out some threads on lamm give some good reviews of the changes (they made some changes) in a cabal so perhaps all is not lost. Though i haven't run it yet myself so i can't personally say.

    People also suggest that people make changes to crucible, but i feel the same elitist group of people would then get up in arms that the quest was changed to for the "lazy" people who want an easy button. One suggestion was exp based by challenge, which isn't a bad idea, but of course people would be offended that the quest could be completed without having to do the swim. I personally am happy they left the actual quest in tact so people who enjoyed running it still can. Maybe bump up the exp on it to make it more appealing as a non-flagging quest.

    The storyline thing gets me a bit. I mean as a semi-casual player (i play about 10-15 hours a week) i could care less about the storyline. I mean i can appreciate that others enjoy it, but it does not effect my gameplay in the least. I fly through the screens trying to actually do something. If i wanted to read a story or a book i'd pick up an actual book. As i said i can understand that some people like it and that's great and all, but i wouldn't get up in arms about a quest line due to "words". I mean it is all fantasy. It's not like we are changing actual real life history. Of course i haven't played pnp d&d for about 20 years so i'm out of touch in that enjoyment level, but again with limited time i like to get into the action and could care less about the story.

    The point is that the quest has not changed. It is still the same quest. No one changed the actual playing of it and the challenge that so many people seem to enjoy that enjoy the quest itself. I think that part is great and the devs should be commended for not "dumbing it down". How does that change your experience if it is not a flagging quest? No one is stopping you. Stop being so concerned about everyone else's gameplay and focus on your own and i'm sure you'll enjoy the game even more.

    +1
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    Last edited by Jarlaxxxe; 01-18-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  6. #246
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post

    *snip to save space*

    Stop being so concerned about everyone else's gameplay and focus on your own and i'm sure you'll enjoy the game even more.
    I like the way you think and where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  7. #247
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    Thanks. LOL. I guess at the bottom of all this lies that simple truth. If everyone was less concerned about how others enjoyed or played the game and focused more on how they are playing the game there would probably be a lot less angst and probably fewer threads in the forums.

    I mean I'm not advocating everyone be selfish jerks when they play. Lte's have a care to others in our actual playing. I'm saying take a look at how a change will effect your own personal play style. Really analyze it.

    Does it change anything for you at all? In this case can you run Crucible still? Yes. Have they changed the actual quest in any way that makes it less enjoyable for you? No? OK. Did you run Cabal before for the fast exp? Probably so it was a quest you already ran anyways so nothing is new for you. So what's the problem?

    Now let's look at it for me. Can I still run Crucible if I want? Yes. Have they changed the actual quest at all? No. Did I run A Cabal before? Yes. OK. What changed for me is that I used to only run Crucible once on any non-evasion toons just for flagging. I dislike the mechanics of the quest when I'm not the one swimming. So now I have the choice to run it or not. This is a positive for me.

    So in summary there is no negative effect for those who like Crucible. There is a positive effect for those that don't. This may lead to more people running Tor and the Raid because more people will flag so overall more people will be able to enjoy more content. However staying true to my ideology I don't care about the other people being able to enjoy more of the game. If I focus just on me it is good for me. If you focus just on YOU it has zero effect. It only has an effect if you concern yourself with how it will effect others.

    All the complaints I see is how easy it will be for others and how in essence it will cheapen my(and people like me) experience by making it an easy raid to flag for. I mean that's all I can get from your reasoning of why it's bad. I say don't worry about me. I got this. Let me be concerned about my experience and if I feel cheated I'll run Crucible for the exp. Just worry about you, though I appreciate your concern, as misguided as it may be.

  8. #248
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    why the hell did they swap in cabal for crucible? is it such a bad thing for there to be difficult quests standing in between a player and a raid? ****** move turbine, more weaksauce coddling from the bend-over-for-the-new-guy dev team.

  9. #249
    Community Member 9Crows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingfisher View Post
    why the hell did they swap in cabal for crucible? is it such a bad thing for there to be difficult quests standing in between a player and a raid? ****** move turbine, more weaksauce coddling from the bend-over-for-the-new-guy dev team.
    crucible was never that difficult... random newbie pugs complete it all the time ..it is no more a test of skill than any other quest in the game..

  10. #250
    Community Member illusion28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    I still don't get why everyone cares so much what quest I run. Who cares? Why are you so caught up on if I run a quest or not. If you want to run it then go ahead. Knock yourself out. No one will be stopping you. But everyone gets so offended that I (and others of course) will no longer have to run a quest we just plain don't enjoy on our non-evasion characters. I'll still run it on some characters, but now I won't have to so that's great by me.

    Why not make every quest in the game part of an advancing chain where you have to run every quest on every life to advance. That way you can control all of what we do. Wouldn't that be great.

    The devs probably looked to see who ran it, how often, and maybe could even see idle times of class types. Then they probably saw A Cabal and how many people ran and participated in that and decided to switch it out. I still don't get how that hurts all you "Uber" players.

    In fact even if they kept it in as a flagging quest what would change for any of us? For the most part (And I'm saying "most part" because I'm sure all you super happy awesome fun time players out there that are better than all of us will easily breeze through it in an uber way while we watch in amazement) we will all have an evasion type or two in our party who will run it as we sit back and watch as has always been done by the majority of players. Fun fun fun for all, or for one I mean.

    So really nothing would change form how it is now. By changing this to A Cabal though it takes a quest that may be easier, but is one where everyone gets to participate and perhaps the "majority" find it somewhat fun compared to Crucible. Again I say compared to because A Cabal is not necessarily the most fun quest in the game, but for non-evasion types maybe more fun than Crucible (You awesome super players aside of course). I'll also point out some threads on Lamm give some good reviews of the changes (They made some changes) in A Cabal so perhaps all is not lost. Though I haven't run it yet myself so I can't personally say.

    People also suggest that people make changes to Crucible, but I feel the same elitist group of people would then get up in arms that the quest was changed to for the "lazy" people who want an easy button. One Suggestion was exp based by challenge, which isn't a bad idea, but of course people would be offended that the quest could be completed without having to do the swim. I personally am happy they left the actual quest in tact so people who enjoyed running it still can. Maybe bump up the exp on it to make it more appealing as a non-flagging quest.

    The storyline thing gets me a bit. I mean as a semi-casual player (I play about 10-15 hours a week) I could care less about the storyline. I mean I can appreciate that others enjoy it, but it does not effect my gameplay in the least. I fly through the screens trying to actually do something. If I wanted to read a story or a book I'd pick up an actual book. As I said I can understand that some people like it and that's great and all, but I wouldn't get up in arms about a quest line due to "words". I mean it is all fantasy. It's not like we are changing actual real life history. Of course I haven't played PnP D&D for about 20 years so I'm out of touch in that enjoyment level, but again with limited time I like to get into the action and could care less about the story.

    The point is that the quest has not changed. It is still the same quest. No one changed the actual playing of it and the challenge that so many people seem to enjoy that enjoy the quest itself. I think that part is great and the devs should be commended for not "dumbing it down". How does that change your experience if it is not a flagging quest? No one is stopping you. Stop being so concerned about everyone else's gameplay and focus on your own and i'm sure you'll enjoy the game even more.
    Nobody is telling YOU how to play or what to play, but when a drastic change of storyline is made just to make it easier then yeah, ppl are going to say something. You can play whatever, however, whenever as ever you like or enjoy, it is not the point to tell others how to play.

    I know the quest will be there, i know the quest will still be "runable" but what i don't understand is taking it out of the flag series since the quest was not that diff. to begin with. And I strongly feel that this change hasn't made much sense so far.

    Sorry if you think that ppl against the change are telling you and others HOW TO PLAY or WHAT TO PLAY, but you can't take it that personal when we're talking about something that affects hundreads of thousands of players... if the new change sticks then ok, so be it, but some of us don't think it's for the best, just that.

    ------

    Edit: The fact that you don't care about the storyline doesn't make it less important for others, I too am a casual player (play only on weekends, saturdays at night and sundays and from time to time if possible 1 or 2 hours during the week) and I do feel that the story matters, which is by no means a way of telling others how to play, or force them. Same idea could apply backwards: Why do you want to force people to accept this change? because it's more enjoyable for you, but not for everyone.
    Last edited by illusion28; 01-18-2013 at 01:16 PM.

  11. #251
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    You're missing the point. A change to the flagging doesn't effect you one way or another. You can continue to run Crucible until your hearts content. You seem to be caught up in the fact (and I use "you" as plural here and it may not be specifically "you") that others will get to run Tor and Reavers without doing Crucible.

    My point is why do you care? What difference does it make to your game play if I run Crucible or not to flag? Or that I have to run any quest quest to flag and raid for that matter. If the same rules apply to both of us then I can't seem to understand why it's such a big deal to you (plural again).

    Name one way that this change will effect you (personally) adversely? Can you? I can name ways it effects me (personally) positively. So if it doesn't effect you personally then why are you so up in arms about it? The reason is because you feel that we must all look for the same type of enjoyment in the game you do. Every argument is that it will be easier and Cabal is a 10 minute quest. Maybe I like 10 minute quests. Am I a bad person because of that? I'm sure some would think I am. However now this allows me to run my 10 minute quest and flag and you to run your 20 minute Crucible and still enjoy it.

    It's a waste of time trying to reason with people who are so caught up in other people's playstyle. I mean that sincerely actually in that I doubt I'll ever convince you about my point and we're both too entrenched in our beliefs. However at least my style offers the most versatility for others to still enjoy the game. Again I'll ask you to point out one way in which this effects you as an individual. I'm sure there will be some good ones like how others will have it easier to flag now. Which of course doesn't effect you. Or maybe how it's being replaced by an easier quest, which shouldn't effect you because you can s till run the same old Crucible quest. Or how the devs are dumbing down the game, despite the fact that the quest is still there in all it's glory.

    _______

    Edit : I fully admitted that the storyline didn't matter to me, but also admitted that I can appreciate that it might to others. As such the devs have adjusted the "fantasy" storyline. Please note they didn't re-write real history so it should be a little easier for people to get over. After all it's not liek they took away teh Red Sox 2004 World Series win by re-write. Now that would be a tragedy.

    Also your point about reversing it is not valid. Changing the flag does not adversely effect a single person in any way. If so I'd love to know how without someone spouting rhetoric about how easy the game is getting and how everyone else gets to breeze through...... That all has to do with how it effects other people. Not yourself.
    Last edited by RumbIe; 01-18-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #252
    Community Member illusion28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    You're missing the point. A change to the flagging doesn't effect you one way or another. You can continue to run Crucible until your hearts content. You seem to be caught up in the fact (and I use "you" as plural here and it may not be specifically "you") that others will get to run Tor and Reavers without doing Crucible.

    My point is why do you care? What difference does it make to your game play if I run Crucible or not to flag? Or that I have to run any quest quest to flag and raid for that matter. If the same rules apply to both of us then I can't seem to understand why it's such a big deal to you (plural again).

    Name one way that this change will effect you (personally) adversely? Can you? I can name ways it effects me (personally) positively. So if it doesn't effect you personally then why are you so up in arms about it? The reason is because you feel that we must all look for the same type of enjoyment in the game you do. Every argument is that it will be easier and Cabal is a 10 minute quest. Maybe I like 10 minute quests. Am I a bad person because of that? I'm sure some would think I am. However now this allows me to run my 10 minute quest and flag and you to run your 20 minute Crucible and still enjoy it.

    It's a waste of time trying to reason with people who are so caught up in other people's playstyle. I mean that sincerely actually in that I doubt I'll ever convince you about my point and we're both too entrenched in our beliefs. However at least my style offers the most versatility for others to still enjoy the game. Again I'll ask you to point out one way in which this effects you as an individual. I'm sure there will be some good ones like how others will have it easier to flag now. Which of course doesn't effect you. Or maybe how it's being replaced by an easier quest, which shouldn't effect you because you can s till run the same old Crucible quest. Or how the devs are dumbing down the game, despite the fact that the quest is still there in all it's glory.

    _______

    Edit : I fully admitted that the storyline didn't matter to me, but also admitted that I can appreciate that it might to others. As such the devs have adjusted the "fantasy" storyline. Please note they didn't re-write real history so it should be a little easier for people to get over. After all it's not liek they took away teh Red Sox 2004 World Series win by re-write. Now that would be a tragedy.

    Also your point about reversing it is not valid. Changing the flag does not adversely effect a single person in any way. If so I'd love to know how without someone spouting rhetoric about how easy the game is getting and how everyone else gets to breeze through...... That all has to do with how it effects other people. Not yourself.
    On the contrary, I understand your point, and I think it's valid in some ways, I just don't fully support it but i do get it.

    BTW you keep taking it all personal, It doesn't affect me as a person, or you, doesn't make you BaAaAaAaAaAaAaAD or good, in my book doesn't make you anything other than someone who doesn't share my point of view, just that, I just think it's unreasonable for them to do that change. At first I hated that quest (Crubible) but then I noticed it taught me a lot (as i said earlier, not a soloer, love groups and learned to do the quest without a swimmer or evasion guy for second horn). So i don't see the point of that change (and saying "because we tweaked the story a little"... for real? come on...)
    Last edited by illusion28; 01-18-2013 at 02:13 PM.

  13. #253
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    You're missing the point. A change to the flagging doesn't effect you one way or another. You can continue to run Crucible until your hearts content. You seem to be caught up in the fact (and I use "you" as plural here and it may not be specifically "you") that others will get to run Tor and Reavers without doing Crucible.

    My point is why do you care? What difference does it make to your game play if I run Crucible or not to flag? Or that I have to run any quest quest to flag and raid for that matter. If the same rules apply to both of us then I can't seem to understand why it's such a big deal to you (plural again).

    Name one way that this change will effect you (personally) adversely? Can you? I can name ways it effects me (personally) positively. So if it doesn't effect you personally then why are you so up in arms about it? The reason is because you feel that we must all look for the same type of enjoyment in the game you do. Every argument is that it will be easier and Cabal is a 10 minute quest. Maybe I like 10 minute quests. Am I a bad person because of that? I'm sure some would think I am. However now this allows me to run my 10 minute quest and flag and you to run your 20 minute Crucible and still enjoy it.

    It's a waste of time trying to reason with people who are so caught up in other people's playstyle. I mean that sincerely actually in that I doubt I'll ever convince you about my point and we're both too entrenched in our beliefs. However at least my style offers the most versatility for others to still enjoy the game. Again I'll ask you to point out one way in which this effects you as an individual. I'm sure there will be some good ones like how others will have it easier to flag now. Which of course doesn't effect you. Or maybe how it's being replaced by an easier quest, which shouldn't effect you because you can s till run the same old Crucible quest. Or how the devs are dumbing down the game, despite the fact that the quest is still there in all it's glory.

    _______

    Edit : I fully admitted that the storyline didn't matter to me, but also admitted that I can appreciate that it might to others. As such the devs have adjusted the "fantasy" storyline. Please note they didn't re-write real history so it should be a little easier for people to get over. After all it's not liek they took away teh Red Sox 2004 World Series win by re-write. Now that would be a tragedy.

    Also your point about reversing it is not valid. Changing the flag does not adversely effect a single person in any way. If so I'd love to know how without someone spouting rhetoric about how easy the game is getting and how everyone else gets to breeze through...... That all has to do with how it effects other people. Not yourself.
    Alternatively, we can attempt to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater and drill down to the actual issues with the quest that folks say they have, and try and cook up notions that'd be acceptable to most.

    It's a feedback server at the very least, and not all ideas need to be embraced with hugs and kisses.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    A change to the flagging doesn't effect you one way or another.
    Not true. The minute you take a tough quest, like this one, and make it 'non-flagging', the number of groups running it will plummet - and that affects all players. Rather than trying to address legitimate issues with the quest which might require more effort than essentially fixing text boxes, however, the devs decided to change an entire story line so that players could skip content. Wow. Most players are water and will follow the path of least resistance; there is little desire to explore all the quests or try something out of your comfort zone unless it is 'required.'
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    I'm definitely not taking it personally. I love that you jump to that conclusion, but if that's what you like to think by all means. I could care less. I'm just a guy bored at work with some free time. It's Friday. I couldn't be more relaxed. Well almost.

    The only one who answered my question is Hafeal. I kind of anticipated this and it is accurate. If it is not a flagging quest less people will run it. This is a legitimate complaint and I agree that it might be the case. So perhaps the devs could bump up the exp for a harder quest like this to make it more appealing or toss a nice loot carrot for an end reward or something. This wouldn't change the difficulty, but make it more rewarding to those who want a challenge.

    However if we analyze it a bit further; if it is not a flagging quest and people will stop doing it all together resulting in it being harder to fill groups then let's ask ourselves why? It's possible that people don't fund it enjoyable to run which is a personal preference so the devs have now not forced those who don't want run it. For anyone that does they still can. Though they will have to find like minded people which may be a minority. Hence being a minority and the reason for the change.

    So the only downside that anyone has brought up with any reason to it is that changing the flag will result in less people running the quest so that for the minority of people who enjoy the quest it will be harder to get a group, but for the majority of people who otherwise dislike it they won't have to run it. We know this is logically the case because if the majority of people like running the quest then a change in flagging wouldn't result in less people running the quest.

  16. #256
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what about A New Invasion? i remember party wipes all the time on anything other than normal. even normal was tough and lfms were looking for a FVS to solo the end, until BB was changed in that room. been months since ive run that quest, but im sure it hasnt changed. probably still have 5 seconds to move from tile to tile, drink curse pots, run backwards in a circle and trying to keep heals up with no way out of the small room unless someone can cast ddoor.

    i remember a lot of complaints about that quest, but Crucible is dropped from flagging because of 1 reason- the swim. it shouldnt surprise me, but it actually does. another reason to not use skill to play the game.
    New invasion... Let me go look it up to refresh my mind. I rather dislike shavarath so I don't play that region much at all.

    Ok, 3 levels, fall down to the fight with pit fiend and portal bombs. (that is what I called it.)
    That required a lot of teamwork, nothing blocked your casting, people were responsible for their own curse removals (which at the time SUCKED for barbs) You weren't being pushed externally in any direction. aka no current. The "trap" regions were well defined vs. 5-10 feet in front of where spear points actually are so by the time you fall into the spikes you've already had to make 2 saves. And then once fully in them you are forced to make about half a dozen more to get out of them. The 'trap bombs" hit you only once (I think).

    Traps bombs also only showed up when you moved to that region. It wasn't a clockwork auto bomb on you. It was 'weight detection" as it were. With a good group I found it easier than the swim, honestly.

  17. #257
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I've got an idea. The devs should take Dreams of Insanity, Made to Order, Spawn of Whisperdoom, and Enemy Within and make them all required to flag for Tempest's Spine. These are some interesting quests that most vets don't bother to run anymore. Shove em down the peoples throats i say, they don't know what's good for em.

  18. #258
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've got an idea. The devs should take Dreams of Insanity, Made to Order, Spawn of Whisperdoom, and Enemy Within and make them all required to flag for Tempest's Spine. These are some interesting quests that most vets don't bother to run anymore. Shove em down the peoples throats i say, they don't know what's good for em.
    At this point in the game there would be no reason for it, however if it was this way from the begining I would have no problem with it. But all this is besides the point, they're not adding a flag they're changing one, and we think the change is bad. You're welcome to your opinion but others will disagree and from my rough read of the thread it's about 50:50 on what people think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Not true. The minute you take a tough quest, like this one, and make it 'non-flagging', the number of groups running it will plummet - and that affects all players. Rather than trying to address legitimate issues with the quest which might require more effort than essentially fixing text boxes, however, the devs decided to change an entire story line so that players could skip content. Wow. Most players are water and will follow the path of least resistance; there is little desire to explore all the quests or try something out of your comfort zone unless it is 'required.'
    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    I'm definitely not taking it personally. I love that you jump to that conclusion, but if that's what you like to think by all means. I could care less. I'm just a guy bored at work with some free time. It's Friday. I couldn't be more relaxed. Well almost.

    The only one who answered my question is Hafeal. I kind of anticipated this and it is accurate. If it is not a flagging quest less people will run it. This is a legitimate complaint and I agree that it might be the case. So perhaps the devs could bump up the exp for a harder quest like this to make it more appealing or toss a nice loot carrot for an end reward or something. This wouldn't change the difficulty, but make it more rewarding to those who want a challenge.

    However if we analyze it a bit further; if it is not a flagging quest and people will stop doing it all together resulting in it being harder to fill groups then let's ask ourselves why? It's possible that people don't fund it enjoyable to run which is a personal preference so the devs have now not forced those who don't want run it. For anyone that does they still can. Though they will have to find like minded people which may be a minority. Hence being a minority and the reason for the change.

    So the only downside that anyone has brought up with any reason to it is that changing the flag will result in less people running the quest so that for the minority of people who enjoy the quest it will be harder to get a group, but for the majority of people who otherwise dislike it they won't have to run it. We know this is logically the case because if the majority of people like running the quest then a change in flagging wouldn't result in less people running the quest.
    I'll take it a bit farther, there is unique loot in crucible. Now that the "elite" are the only ones to run it, the loot will become even more rare. AH Prices and trade channel prices will go up farther. I haven't seen how the loot may have been redone but if the loot is good then it will lead to further segregation of the "elite" and the "noobs" both economically and gear wise.

    There is the other problem, people complain that crucible and other quests such as coal chamber are hard and shouldn't be in the flag rotation. Now Turbine removes crucible from the flags, this makes it look like they changed it due to complaints. Changing the game because elite is too hard for people when they're not willing to run a lower difficulty just says all kinds of bad things about the state of the game, the state of the community, and the state of the devs.

  19. #259
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Changing the game because elite is too hard for people when they're not willing to run a lower difficulty just says all kinds of bad things about the state of the game, the state of the community, and the state of the devs.
    This.

    The game is already balanced for them, but instead of running it that way, they refuse and instead insist everyone else has to run it their way. This pokes serious holes in the often repeated argument that the changes made to dumb the game down supposedly doesnt affect anyone else.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-18-2013 at 03:34 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #260
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've got an idea. The devs should take Dreams of Insanity, Made to Order, Spawn of Whisperdoom, and Enemy Within and make them all required to flag for Tempest's Spine. These are some interesting quests that most vets don't bother to run anymore. Shove em down the peoples throats i say, they don't know what's good for em.
    Nah, given the castration of GH flagging - if there was to be flagging for Tempest's Spine, it'd be Hall of the Mark. Period.
    53723

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