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  1. #221
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanbeki View Post
    /signed
    chains of flame wasn't removed from dq flagging when it went epic, why should crucible be removed? Even if epic tor requires you to flag all 3 key quests on epic I still see no reason to alter keying at this point in time
    Chains of flame also doesn't have any forced portion that could cause an entire party wipe due to the fact the only thing you can do is move (mostly in one direction), suck a lot of damage, LIE to you about when the traps hit, and remove most forms of healing.

  2. #222
    Community Member Drona's Avatar
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    Smile A fantastic change!

    I dont understand all this whining...the quest is still there.
    You elitist/power gamers can still solo/duo that quest and farm XP under 15 mins while we casual/lazy-arse/ppl with a job (as per the forum elitists) can do cabal and go enjoy the raid.

    As someone said, the devs have the data better than any of us: they clearly wanted to change because they did not like what they saw

  3. #223
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    While not a favorite quest, still a rite of passage quest.

    Please keep Crucible as the flagging quest.
    The Nak Abides - Ascent - Argonnessen
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    Manak Bloodscreamer (TR) ~ Qanak the Absolute (TR) ~ Kanak (TR) ~ Fanak Voltaic(TR)

  4. #224
    Community Member kanbeki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Chains of flame also doesn't have any forced portion that could cause an entire party wipe due to the fact the only thing you can do is move (mostly in one direction), suck a lot of damage, LIE to you about when the traps hit, and remove most forms of healing.
    I am very curious about how you run crucible
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  5. #225
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Chains of flame also doesn't have any forced portion that could cause an entire party wipe due to the fact the only thing you can do is move (mostly in one direction), suck a lot of damage, LIE to you about when the traps hit, and remove most forms of healing.
    what about A New Invasion? i remember party wipes all the time on anything other than normal. even normal was tough and lfms were looking for a FVS to solo the end, until BB was changed in that room. been months since ive run that quest, but im sure it hasnt changed. probably still have 5 seconds to move from tile to tile, drink curse pots, run backwards in a circle and trying to keep heals up with no way out of the small room unless someone can cast ddoor.

    i remember a lot of complaints about that quest, but Crucible is dropped from flagging because of 1 reason- the swim. it shouldnt surprise me, but it actually does. another reason to not use skill to play the game.

  6. #226
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    How can a non evasion char flag? Timing?
    Not running elite.

    The agility test on Hard or easier is a joke if you have decent HP. The same goes for the swim. Invite a level 17 toon if you don't want to lose your bravery streak. If Crucible is the only quest you run on Casual in Gianthold, you still leave the zone with more than enough for your 150 Favor mark.

    ============================

    Myself, I do not aprove the changes because I can't see how they'll fit Cabal as one of the main tests to enter the Storm Fist Horde, or how they'll fit the Crucible to be the orc group walkup quest. I love the gianthold storyline, and am afraid to see how they changed it. I trust Turbine on their history stuff, but since U12, they have yet to release a single quest pack that I like for the story. If Gianthold new historyline don't deliver, it might be the straw for me.

    I'm personally more worried about the storyline stuff than the "people will never run it again" stuff. I cna find groups to run Necro 3 at level, I can find groups to run Pit at level, and I can find groups to run Restless Isles at level. Crucible will still be played because it is an awesome quest, with great loot, and major XP.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  7. #227
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what about A New Invasion?
    Every single flagging chain (aka, the ones where you have to complete X quests to open quest Y) have at least one quest people simple don't like because something there is too hard.

    Sharn Syndicate, people don't like Bookbinder Rescue because it requires a trapper.

    Necropolis have at least one hated quest per pack (Immortal Heart, Shadow Guard, Tomb of Tormented, Fleshmaker).

    VoN have a spike dificulty on part 4 (Part 2 was changed because of those complains)

    DQ have Chains for the usual forumite, and OoB for the non-zergers.

    Gianthold have Crucible.

    Vale have... well, every quest, depending on your playstyle. There is not a single quest there that EVERYONE agrees is fun.

    Amrath have New Invasion and Bastion of Power

    Phiaran Carnival have Small Problem

    Sentinels have Black Loch

    Reign of Madness have Acute Delirium

    Cannith have Schemes and the teleporting cannon.

    And so on.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  8. #228
    Community Member WestiesMA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauraliane View Post
    Good and sensible change. Smartly made to actually find a compromise (key word here), in order to ensure that as many people in the player base get to enjoy their play.
    What data do you have that more people prefer the change? Until you have data, how can you say it is fair compromise? IMO a compromise means that more people are happier after than change than before - do you have this data?

    So what you are saying is that you like the change. That is fine; you are entitled to your opinion. I do not agree with you - please do not speak for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauraliane View Post
    I am also a game developer and I fully understand the reasoning behind this change.
    OK so explain it to me with valid data.
    Last edited by WestiesMA; 01-18-2013 at 12:08 AM.

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  9. #229
    Community Member Elements's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    To the question of story: as part of the Gianthold revamp, the story arch is no longer focused on joining factions. It has been reworked slightly to a more investigation-style story with the new quest order. That being said, Crucible is still a part of the adventure pack and named items in there have been Epic'd (is that a verb? It is now... Epic'd).

    We're also interested in reports of any legacy Crucible dialog that still doesn't feel like it stands on its own after the change. It's ok to have NPCs talking about factions and so forth, but if there are more direct references to the old story line that are now confusing against what the new quest order is saying, the quest devs would be very interested in the info!
    It has been a long time since I ran Reaver's Refuge, but have you looked into how this new storyline flows with that one? It may or may not; I can't remember. Could you change the storyline for the other raids that I have to run a pre-raid for that I don't like? (DQ for example) Nothing like having to split up a group of 12 for a pre-raid so you can do a raid together. Please change this - you have set the precedent here.
    Officer of Chimera - Sarlona

  10. #230
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    Just my $0.02, but this seems like a pretty silly and unnecessary change. Instead of the devs tweaking the quest a little bit, or the players accepting that they might have to run a lesser difficulty if they can't handle elite, they feel the need to change the flagging mechanic, retcon the storyline, and then ask us to proofread it for them?

    I also find it funny that people find having to learn a certain aspect of a game as "inconvenient" or "too hard" and use things like "I work and have a family so I can't commit 420938490230 hours to learning a quest like the losers in Mom's basement can" as excuses. In any game you play you have to learn the mechanics and overcome obstacles. That's kind of the entire point. Crucible is not that hard to learn or run, and off the top of my head I currently can't think of a quest in this game that requires the kind of monumental task of learning that a non-Mensa member wouldn't be able to handle. Even other commonly-complained-about quests like The Pit and Inferno of the Damned.

    If someone as flaky, absent-minded, and impatient as myself can learn these quests, you can to. I promise you.
    * Sohryu * (Life #25: 13 BRD / 1 FTR / 1 ROG)
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  11. #231
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauraliane View Post
    Good and sensible change. Smartly made to actually find a compromise (key word here), in order to ensure that as many people in the player base get to enjoy their play.

    As usual most people here though simply whine because they want the game to tailor to only ONE type of experience: The one they want.
    And of course talking using extreme and exagerating is the way for people to argue here:

    *OMG this was the best storyline ever*
    **** you are butchering it*

    Please...can you exagerate a bit much? Pretty sure you could go farther, what about saying that this change will *Completely destroy your fun the game* or wait a classic *Make you lose the few trust you had left for the devs team* or *You might consider stop playing the game now!*

    Oh also, you should try using even more exclamation mark, everyone know it is the best way to prove your point and to validate your opinion "Bring Back Crucible!!!" with only 3 exclamation mark, try 10 next time.

    I am also a game developer and I fully understand the reasoning behind this change.

    This is a good change. It is alright.
    Thank you for adding your credentials to the bottom of you post. Without, I would not be able to validate to why it is a good change.

    I know threads like this get long, and with long threads and 100s of replies, there will be some Bat Guano amongst the quality posts. That is what forums are about. You however have one the Troll post of the week, by simply repeating some of the poor choice phrases that you dont' care for.

    You could of used that "I am also a game developer" experience and added quality and insight that you feel you have to the conversation.

    It is welcome here.

    -Bunk

  12. #232
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Default Change the quest, not the Flag!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    Just my $0.02, but this seems like a pretty silly and unnecessary change. Instead of the devs tweaking the quest a little bit, or the players accepting that they might have to run a lesser difficulty if they can't handle elite, they feel the need to change the flagging mechanic, retcon the storyline, and then ask us to proofread it for them?

    I also find it funny that people find having to learn a certain aspect of a game as "inconvenient" or "too hard" and use things like "I work and have a family so I can't commit 420938490230 hours to learning a quest like the losers in Mom's basement can" as excuses. In any game you play you have to learn the mechanics and overcome obstacles. That's kind of the entire point. Crucible is not that hard to learn or run, and off the top of my head I currently can't think of a quest in this game that requires the kind of monumental task of learning that a non-Mensa member wouldn't be able to handle. Even other commonly-complained-about quests like The Pit and Inferno of the Damned.

    If someone as flaky, absent-minded, and impatient as myself can learn these quests, you can to. I promise you.
    Just a thought, as i read your post:

    I'm surprised they didn't think of changing The Crucible.

    Just an example:

    Chop up the xp for each test. In The Crucible, there are 4 tests that you need to accomplish to get through doors. So give the option to do the test. However, if your party decides to skip the test, they dont' get the optional xp. If you shave off the base xp to lets say 40%, and each of the 4 tests is 15% each (or based on the difficulty of the test for balance), then you have your choice of the easy road of hack/slash to the end, or the challenged road of doing all tests for max xp.

    Base xp 40%
    Each test ~15% xp each
    add minor bonus for completing all tests 10%

    Now these are all examples of xp values to prove that they could of worked on the quest, instead of changing the flag.

    Devs: Nostalgia is important to the game. Especially when it comes to one of the most loved additions to the game, The Gianthold pack. I hope you consider this change to be a test on Lamannia and decide that there is a better alternative that you could realease around update 17.1 or 17.2.

    See you in the water!

    -Bunk

  13. #233
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Sadly, there will probably never be another quest like The Crucible.

  14. #234
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Just a thought, as i read your post:

    I'm surprised they didn't think of changing The Crucible.

    Just an example:

    Chop up the xp for each test. In The Crucible, there are 4 tests that you need to accomplish to get through doors. So give the option to do the test. However, if your party decides to skip the test, they dont' get the optional xp. If you shave off the base xp to lets say 40%, and each of the 4 tests is 15% each (or based on the difficulty of the test for balance), then you have your choice of the easy road of hack/slash to the end, or the challenged road of doing all tests for max xp.

    Base xp 40%
    Each test ~15% xp each
    add minor bonus for completing all tests 10%

    Now these are all examples of xp values to prove that they could of worked on the quest, instead of changing the flag.

    Devs: Nostalgia is important to the game. Especially when it comes to one of the most loved additions to the game, The Gianthold pack. I hope you consider this change to be a test on Lamannia and decide that there is a better alternative that you could realease around update 17.1 or 17.2.

    See you in the water!

    -Bunk
    Simplified version: Test, or nasty purple name when you open the door. Horn turns off the alarm.

  15. #235
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Simplified version: Test, or nasty purple name when you open the door. Horn turns off the alarm.
    And then you simply have The Crucible option of running the quest much like Cabal for One currently is. Hack/slash and kill named dudes.

    Giving options in the cruicible and xp adjustment would allow the quest to stay as one of the original Flagging Quests for Gianthold Tor and Reaver, and allow pleasant option for those that want a more simple straight forward approach to flagging.

    -Bunk

  16. #236
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    And then you simply have The Crucible option of running the quest much like Cabal for One currently is. Hack/slash and kill named dudes.

    Giving options in the cruicible and xp adjustment would allow the quest to stay as one of the original Flagging Quests for Gianthold Tor and Reaver, and allow pleasant option for those that want a more simple straight forward approach to flagging.

    -Bunk
    Precisely. It'd even fit the story, since they go into the maze. (Though that would likely entail removing the bluff/diplo options if those were the ones we faced.)
    Last edited by Scraap; 01-18-2013 at 01:31 AM.

  17. #237
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    Sadly, there will probably never be another quest like The Crucible.
    As I said a few posts back - I firmly believe the golden age of quest-development for this game has long since sailed. I'm not too thrilled about saying so, but the past few cycles of development has just not even come close to what came before them. This includes the expansion, in my view.


    Simply slapping the Flagging Quest sticker on Cabal pretty much proved that. A rework of Crucible was either too much for them to handle time-wise, or they just couldn't manage it design-wise. Since we know Epic GH has been ripe on the vine for a while now, I tend to think it's the latter of the two. Far easier to rewrite the dialog and massage the story-line in order to sledgehammer in their attempt at a fix. I cannot see this as anything other than an inelegant solution to a task the Dev team simply couldn't muster up the stones to pull off well.
    Last edited by Memnir; 01-18-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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  18. #238
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Thank you for adding your credentials to the bottom of you post. Without, I would not be able to validate to why it is a good change.

    I know threads like this get long, and with long threads and 100s of replies, there will be some Bat Guano amongst the quality posts. That is what forums are about. You however have one the Troll post of the week, by simply repeating some of the poor choice phrases that you dont' care for.

    You could of used that "I am also a game developer" experience and added quality and insight that you feel you have to the conversation.

    It is welcome here.

    -Bunk
    I guess quality posts are the ones that agree with you, and bat guano is the ones that don't eh?

    I've got an idea, if the change to the storyline bothers people, just pretend it's still the old storyline, since i'm quite sure none of you are reading those boxes anymore anyway.

    If dropping it as a flagging quest bothers you, why don't you just pretend it still is and promise yourself you won't run Tor until you've done it?

    The Devs have data about who runs these quests, nobody else here does. They changed it. Live with it.

  19. #239
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    As I said a few posts back - I firmly believe the golden age of quest-development for this game has long since sailed. I'm not too thrilled about saying so, but the past few cycles of development has just not even come close to what came before them. This includes the expansion, in my view.


    Simply slapping the Flagging Quest sticker on Cabal pretty much proved that. A rework of Crucible was either too much for them to handle time-wise, or they just couldn't manage it design-wise. Since we know Epic GH has been ripe on the vine for a while now, I tend to think it's the latter of the two. Far easier to rewrite the dialog and massage the story-line in order to sledgehammer in their attempt at a fix. I cannot see this as anything other than an inelegant solution to a task the Dev team simply couldn't muster up the stones to pull off well.
    This, you know what my rule for myself is for building or working on something? If I can't do it well, I refer it to someone that can and keep my hands off. Seems the devs don't follow that. I fully expect panda's to be a character race soon.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've got an idea, if the change to the storyline bothers people, just pretend it's still the old storyline, since i'm quite sure none of you are reading those boxes anymore anyway.

    If dropping it as a flagging quest bothers you, why don't you just pretend it still is and promise yourself you won't run Tor until you've done it?

    The Devs have data about who runs these quests, nobody else here does. They changed it. Live with it.
    So why have any flagging quests anymore, for any raid/quest?
    Con is not a dump stat, but reading comprehension is not a dump skill!

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