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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    For the eSoS version the 2 Monk is just for the feats, correct? Looks like a typical Reflex save will be mid-30s, which might as well be 0 for EE. I'm toying around with Fighter instead of Monk for the STR and tactics enhancements, which would allow me to eek out another +2 Stunning Blow DC.
    40-48 is probably easy reflex target, 60 is possible.

    05 Arty@16
    03 Monk@2
    00 Paladin@2
    02 Epic Levels
    09 DEX@29 (from video)
    09 CHA@28 (from video)
    =28
    04 GH
    01 Spider Mask
    05 item (might be higher)
    01 Aura of Good
    01 Haste/Armor of Speed
    02 Luck
    =42
    04 Sup. parrying (Not sure if this is slotted - sun soul?)
    02 Brace for Impact
    =48
    06 Lithe (SD 2)
    06 Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref, +3% Dodge
    =60 (could be added)
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  2. #122
    Community Member fyrst.grok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I love this concept for a self-healing melee, but why Zen Archery and IPS?

    Zen Archery: The Sun Soul earth stance proc is cool. But to take a feat for 20 seconds out of every 2 min just so it procs once...that's what I don't understand.
    I honestly thought it was more out of comfort than to take advantage of the 3% double strike from twist and 6% proc. (if made to work on ranged in future updates?).
    Swapping gear and loosing stance might create lag.. does for me anyway. But my computer is ancient..

    Also think he might lose +2 damage pr. hit if he didn't have it.

    Cool build btw. Might tr my old wf fvs into something similar.. Can't make myself heal raids and he just feels outdated now.. Used to be my favorite, so here's hoping to a renewed life of fun and exploits.

  3. #123
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrst.grok View Post
    I honestly thought it was more out of comfort than to take advantage of the 3% double strike from twist and 6% proc. (if made to work on ranged in future updates?).
    Swapping gear and loosing stance might create lag.. does for me anyway. But my computer is ancient..

    Also think he might lose +2 damage pr. hit if he didn't have it.

    Cool build btw. Might tr my old wf fvs into something similar.. Can't make myself heal raids and he just feels outdated now.. Used to be my favorite, so here's hoping to a renewed life of fun and exploits.
    Also makes it easier to keep his PRR if he twists the earth-stance twist from GMoF.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    40-48 is probably easy reflex target, 60 is possible.

    05 Arty@16
    03 Monk@2
    00 Paladin@2
    02 Epic Levels
    09 DEX@29 (from video)
    09 CHA@28 (from video)
    =28
    04 GH
    01 Spider Mask
    05 item (might be higher)
    01 Aura of Good
    01 Haste/Armor of Speed
    02 Luck
    =42
    04 Sup. parrying (Not sure if this is slotted - sun soul?)
    02 Brace for Impact
    =48
    06 Lithe (SD 2)
    06 Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref, +3% Dodge
    =60 (could be added)
    Appreciate the reply, but:

    I referenced the Ranger/Monk version, not the Paladin/Monk version.

    Spider Cult Mask is a +1 bonus to skills, not saves.

    I consider ditching Primal Scream a non-starter (I prefer LD playstyle over FotW). Swapping out Wild Weapons for Unearthly Reactions is ok situationally.

    I'm using an eSoS, not Sireth, so there's no reason to use the Sun Soul set bracers for Superior Parrying.

    So that's 20 less Reflex, which still makes it rather pointless on EE.
    Last edited by Carpone; 02-04-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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  5. #125
    Community Member Lurzifer's Avatar
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    I currently sit on a 53 reflex on my ranger version that is with unearthly reactions,
    using twists:

    In fury: haste boost/grims precision, momentum swing, unearthly reactions
    In LD: Wild weapons/sense weakness, primal scream, unearthly reactions

    The ranger has higher base reflex by 3 and the precise shot build starts with more dex, so youre actually not that far behind.
    Haek N' Slay (©ompletionist Juggernaut / Zeus Life 61 of 61)My Toon is better than your toon.Mitis Mors - Thelanis

  6. #126
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    This is the buffed screenshot of my ranger build in lesser ocean with my standard running self buff package (w/ship buffs, wo/yugo+store+house-d). No ED saves.



    Not sure how this will work out U17 unfortunately I copied the toon over to Lam before I TR'd.

    My biggest issue right now is whether to drop bludgeon (sireth) and go slashing with cleaver and eAGA or eSOS. fortunately its a pretty easy decision short term I'm still missing eSOS shard and don't have eAGA or Cleaver. I like the fact I can be in Ocean or other stance, but any of those slashing weapons will be more DPS. Not sure which way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Thank you for the insight, its very helpful.

    Having looked at the paladin version vs. the ranger one, I like the look of the ranger one better but am concerned about saves. What saves are you currently at - particularly reflex? I'm guessing that you could just about push reflex to 50 and fort to mid-40s, but I wouldn't want to be twisting saves in (with the possible exception of lithe, and that more for dodge % if one takes the mithral body feat).
    RTFM on Khyber

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I'm using an eSoS, not Sireth, so there's no reason to use the Sun Soul set bracers for Superior Parrying.
    I'm not using the sun soul set now, using +8 STR superior parrying bracers.
    RTFM on Khyber

  8. #128
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    Default Slash vs. Bludgeon

    Lurz what do you think staying centered with staff for situational bonus vs. DPS of slashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurzifer View Post
    I currently sit on a 53 reflex on my ranger version that is with unearthly reactions,
    using twists:

    In fury: haste boost/grims precision, momentum swing, unearthly reactions
    In LD: Wild weapons/sense weakness, primal scream, unearthly reactions

    The ranger has higher base reflex by 3 and the precise shot build starts with more dex, so youre actually not that far behind.
    RTFM on Khyber

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machination View Post
    Lurz what do you think staying centered with staff for situational bonus vs. DPS of slashing?
    He's been running with the cleaver and EAGA for bosses for a while now and mutters something about crits that go over 9k from time to time...

  10. #130
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    He's been running with the cleaver and EAGA for bosses for a while now and mutters something about crits that go over 9k from time to time...
    Its over 9000!

    Big numbers are nice, but from an expected damage over time perspective it would be good to know what the dps loss is %wise from staying staff based.

    I'm curious whether stout walking stick is actually ahead of sireth given high enough base damage, as it has a better crit profile when you're in LD with pulveriser up. If the main ED is FotW however, I could see you'd be much better off with 'proper' 2H weapons.

  11. #131

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    Hypothetically, let's say I don't want to run with FotW for thematic reasons. I've seen some demos of Manyshot/FotW, but I haven't actually found any of Manyshot/Master's Blitz. If I want to focus on LD and never use FotW, is the feat investment to get to Bow Strength/Manyshot still worth it? I'm wondering if I planned on LD, if I'd then want to put more feats into THF and go back to an occasional Master's Blitz + Endless Fusillade for burst...

    Thoughts?
    The Brotherhood of BYOH--Thelanis: Charged, WF Artificer; Venomshade, Half-Elf Monk; Poxs, Fist of an Angry God; Crash, Pale Monkster

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machination View Post
    I'm not using the sun soul set now, using +8 STR superior parrying bracers.
    Huh. I haven't seen that mutation, though I haven't looked for it. That would solve some of my gearing dilemmas. Thanks!
    U19 Kensei: Centered Cleaver | TR Junkie Leveling Framework

    ~Ying~ (10 lives), ~Hamada~(9 lives), ~Vadanken~ (6 lives), ~Kobeyashi~ (10 lives)
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  13. #133
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    Default AH item

    I bought off of the AH

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Huh. I haven't seen that mutation, though I haven't looked for it. That would solve some of my gearing dilemmas. Thanks!
    RTFM on Khyber

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Hypothetically, let's say I don't want to run with FotW for thematic reasons. I've seen some demos of Manyshot/FotW, but I haven't actually found any of Manyshot/Master's Blitz. If I want to focus on LD and never use FotW, is the feat investment to get to Bow Strength/Manyshot still worth it? I'm wondering if I planned on LD, if I'd then want to put more feats into THF and go back to an occasional Master's Blitz + Endless Fusillade for burst...

    Thoughts?
    I use blitzshot in the end fight of this.

    I'd say it's still worth investment, if you run in LD only then Improved Crit: Ranged is really, really good. For fury it's not nearly as important.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    I'm curious whether stout walking stick is actually ahead of sireth given high enough base damage, as it has a better crit profile when you're in LD with pulveriser up.
    I threw it in Excel real quick to check.
    Assumptions:
    -Dreadnought - Improved Power Attack, Devastating Critical, Pulverizer (doesn't work with Sireth per the wiki), twisting Dance of Flowers
    -Deadly Weapons, Battle Engineer, seeker 10
    -Overwhelming Critical
    -Improved Crit: Bludgeon (needed for sireth, but not stout)
    -Sireth fully upgraded, red slotted with some nondamaging effect
    -enemy is subject to lightning, sonic, good, and fracturing damages.
    -bonus [W] damage from cleave/lay waste/etc is ignored

    Stout Walking Stick becomes 17/x3, 5[2d6]+6 with 7 average bonus damage.
    Sireth becomes 15/x2, 6[1d10]+8 with 33.15 average bonus damage and 4 higher base dmg from planar conflux.

    The SWS doesn't win until your damage modifier reaches almost 270.
    If you've got Master's Blitz running at 10 stacks, SWS pulls ahead at +90 (noncrits dealing 460ish).

    If the enemy does not take electric damage, SWS is ahead at +140/+55 (not/blitzing).
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  16. #136
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malison View Post
    I threw it in Excel real quick to check.
    Assumptions:
    -Dreadnought - Improved Power Attack, Devastating Critical, Pulverizer (doesn't work with Sireth per the wiki), twisting Dance of Flowers
    -Deadly Weapons, Battle Engineer, seeker 10
    -Overwhelming Critical
    -Improved Crit: Bludgeon (needed for sireth, but not stout)
    -Sireth fully upgraded, red slotted with some nondamaging effect
    -enemy is subject to lightning, sonic, good, and fracturing damages.
    -bonus [W] damage from cleave/lay waste/etc is ignored

    Stout Walking Stick becomes 17/x3, 5[2d6]+6 with 7 average bonus damage.
    Sireth becomes 15/x2, 6[1d10]+8 with 33.15 average bonus damage and 4 higher base dmg from planar conflux.

    The SWS doesn't win until your damage modifier reaches almost 270.
    If you've got Master's Blitz running at 10 stacks, SWS pulls ahead at +90 (noncrits dealing 460ish).

    If the enemy does not take electric damage, SWS is ahead at +140/+55 (not/blitzing).
    So realistically sireth stays ahead then, which is as it should be I guess (though considering the hoops you go through for a fully upgraded sireth vs. SWS, SWS doesn't seem a bad option till you get it). In reality quarterstaves seem an expensive choice for the juggernaut, as it costs you a twist to get them up to decent base damage.

    The other key weapon choice in LD (if you don't have an eSoS) is I guess between a drow maul vs. greataxe of choice. The drow maul gains the crit profile of the eSoS under LD, but can only break either good or metallic with arti buffs. You could keep sireth as a DR breaker for such situations ofc. Meanwhile, I could see eAG working very well with all the +w in the LD tree, but its crit profile is much worse than the drow maul.

    On most other classes, I'd think the greataxe is the weapon of choice in LD, but for the juggernaut the easy availaility of dr breaking buffs keeps either choice quite viable it seems.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    I use blitzshot in the end fight of this.

    I'd say it's still worth investment, if you run in LD only then Improved Crit: Ranged is really, really good. For fury it's not nearly as important.
    Interesting. It's clearly a burst of more DPS than straight up melee, but at the same time, nowhere even close to Unbridled Fury. Definitely a good thing to do on a ranged build, for sure. But, this build has 5 feats invested in getting to Manyshot, and sacrifices some DPS on straight-up single mob melee (ie, taking down the boss) to do so. It feels to me like the feats are worth it (clearly) if you plan to use FotW, but if planning to use LD only, the smaller boost in DPS (vs. just straight up melee w/Blitz) when Manyshot is off timer isn't necessarily worth 5 feats, some of which could otherwise be used to boost melee DPS all the time.

    I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here, looking for someone to convince me that the feat's should stand as-is even if FotW is unavailable, or (more what I'm really concerned about) if a future patch, say, changed the behavior of Manyshot/Adrenaline/Fury.
    The Brotherhood of BYOH--Thelanis: Charged, WF Artificer; Venomshade, Half-Elf Monk; Poxs, Fist of an Angry God; Crash, Pale Monkster

  18. #138
    Community Member Lurzifer's Avatar
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    When im playing in LD soloing or shortmanning, is always use manyshot on bosses or to get the blitz started in very hostile environment. Since i have imp crit ranged it is at least as much damage as unbridled fury when blitz is stacked to 10. Crits are the same as adrenalined but the base hits are ~300-350 and that is quite much since u combine it with haste boost instead of damage boost on fury.

    Manyshot is part of the build, going for THF line will result in a very survibable melee but the ranged option brings so much versatility to the table, especially when in raids and running in fury.
    Haek N' Slay (©ompletionist Juggernaut / Zeus Life 61 of 61)My Toon is better than your toon.Mitis Mors - Thelanis

  19. #139
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurzifer View Post
    When im playing in LD soloing or shortmanning, is always use manyshot on bosses or to get the blitz started in very hostile environment. Since i have imp crit ranged it is at least as much damage as unbridled fury when blitz is stacked to 10. Crits are the same as adrenalined but the base hits are ~300-350 and that is quite much since u combine it with haste boost instead of damage boost on fury.

    Manyshot is part of the build, going for THF line will result in a very survibable melee but the ranged option brings so much versatility to the table, especially when in raids and running in fury.
    I see the ranged option as what separates the Jugg from the Tukaw.

    Both are really hard to kill...

    Tukaw uses SP and 2-3 feats (Max, emp and maybe heighten) for ranged dmg...which lowers your staying power due to loss of SP for healing...

    Jugg uses arrows and bolts for ranged dmg...BONUS feats from Arty can be used to get Manyshot.

    Plus by forgoing DCs and offensive you can focus on other things.

    The easiest way to make a bad toon in this game is to try to do too much... 10Cleric/10Sorc comes to mind!

    The Jugg leverages Bonus feats to make it work.
    Bacab Warforged 18 Arty (Active) Hjealer Dwarven Battle Cleric 10CLR/1FTR
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  20. #140
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    Added ocean stance:

    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    40-48 is probably easy reflex target, 60 is possible.
    05 Arty@16
    03 Monk@2
    00 Paladin@2
    02 Epic Levels
    09 DEX@29 (from video)
    09 CHA@28 (from video)
    =28
    04 GH
    05 item (might be higher)
    01 Aura of Good
    01 Haste/Armor of Speed
    02 Luck
    =41
    04 Sup. parrying (Not sure if this is slotted - sun soul?)
    02 Brace for Impact
    02 Ocean stance
    =49
    06 Lithe (SD 2)
    06 Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref, +3% Dodge
    =61 (could be added)


    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Appreciate the reply, but:

    I referenced the Ranger/Monk version, not the Paladin/Monk version.

    Spider Cult Mask is a +1 bonus to skills, not saves.

    Yeah, thanks missed that.

    I consider ditching Primal Scream a non-starter (I prefer LD playstyle over FotW). Swapping out Wild Weapons for Unearthly Reactions is ok situationally.

    I'm using an eSoS, not Sireth, so there's no reason to use the Sun Soul set bracers for Superior Parrying.

    So that's 20 less Reflex, which still makes it rather pointless on EE.

    Ranger version:

    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    05 Arty@16
    03 Monk@2
    03 Ranger@2
    02 Epic Levels
    11 DEX@32 (from 2nd video)
    =24
    04 GH
    05 item (might be higher)
    01 Haste/Armor of Speed
    02 Luck
    =36
    04 Sup. parrying (Not sure if this is slotted - sun soul or random loot, +8/SParrying or HealAmp/SParrying)
    02 Brace for Impact
    02 Ocean stance
    06 Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref, +3% Dodge
    01 Ranger Favored Resistance I
    =51
    06 Lithe (SD 2)
    =57 (could be added)
    Given this is a survivalist build, even a high 40s/low 50s reflex will be useful in EE.



    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Interesting. It's clearly a burst of more DPS than straight up melee, but at the same time, nowhere even close to Unbridled Fury. Definitely a good thing to do on a ranged build, for sure. But, this build has 5 feats invested in getting to Manyshot, and sacrifices some DPS on straight-up single mob melee (ie, taking down the boss) to do so. It feels to me like the feats are worth it (clearly) if you plan to use FotW, but if planning to use LD only, the smaller boost in DPS (vs. just straight up melee w/Blitz) when Manyshot is off timer isn't necessarily worth 5 feats, some of which could otherwise be used to boost melee DPS all the time.

    I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here, looking for someone to convince me that the feat's should stand as-is even if FotW is unavailable, or (more what I'm really concerned about) if a future patch, say, changed the behavior of Manyshot/Adrenaline/Fury.

    As Bacab says, 4 feats come from the Arty bonus. Since this is not a DC focused build, the metamagics feats are not a useful choice - except for Quicken. So really it is just ranged feats:- PBS, Rapid Shot and WF: Ranged (*) plus Quicken.

    So it is only Manyshot and Bow Strength that are required from the non-bonus feat pool. And it's hard to think what would replace for Manyshot and/or Bow Strength on this platform.

    So by going melee arty, we get the ranged option is a bonus.
    Varz
    Wanderlust

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